Fundie Retreat to Marry Off Children ~ Vaughn Ohlman

[polecat]

On 5/13/2016 at 5:06 PM, nolongerIFBx said:

There are varieties of IFB even inside the IFB description. Most recently the Duggars have claimed to be IFB (though they identified as Southern Baptists in the early specials). However in over 30 years in IFBx (what I call extremist since the church I attend now is IFB but would not be considered so by IFBxers), I only met one family who stated they did not use birth control. I do not know that they officially identified as Quiverfull. There is another family  that I certainly suspect does not practice BC (9 kids, the last born when the wife was 43) but I've never heard them out and out say that they don't use birth control/believe birth control is a sin or lack of faith.

Dress standards in the IFBx churches I was in was very similar to the Duggars. Most of the churches allowed girls to wear culottes for casual activities but it got to be quite an issue to find culottes that would pass muster; they needed to have at least a box pleat in the front and back (to cover the crotch/butt crack areas) and there was still discussion that while modest they were still a divided legged garment so some churches just said no garments with divided legs at all. Some churches allowed skirts to the knee others required skirts to be to the bottom of the knee. Some required that if you were so worldly as to wear a skirt that was slim enough it had a kick pleat in it, the slit had to be sewed shut. Some required that anything that buttoned up the front had to be sewn to the bottom of the skirt (to avoid gaping and a slit in the bottom of the skirt/dress). Some felt that keyhole closures on blouses were immodest (even if the button was at the neck!). Some required that pantyhose/tights always be worn (no bare legs). I never ran into any issues with sandals but I heard of some who did. Guys dress was pretty simple. Wear a shirt. If it was a dress type shirt, wear a T-shirt under it. Some churches said no shorts at all, others allowed them as long as they came to below the knee. Hair must be short, not touching the ears. Some churches allowed facial hair, others not. Men could not wear jewelry other than watches and rings (usually only wedding rings were worn). Some required that all dress shirts must be white, some allowed blue or stripes, but no peach, pink, purple (too feminine). Pastors could make up rules like no headphones ever, no hats backwards, no hats ever, and specific to my day, I guess, no scrunchie sock layering. No workman-type boots for girls (too masculine).

Music standards were pretty similar to the Duggars. No rock, no country, no contemporary Christian music including Sandi Patti and Steve Green. Nothing with a beat.

Most churches had a no TV at all rule. People in the church who had them were looked down on. If you had a Blockbuster card i your wallet, you needed to Get Right With God. Some allowed VCRs that you could play edited tapes on. Unlike Duggars and VF (from what I understand) setting foot in a movie theater, even to see a G rated movie, was a horrible sin. You should "avoid the appearance of evil" and sinners watching you wouldn't know if you were there to see a G rated film or an R rated one.

Dating occurred but it was chaperoned. You didn't have to have a second date and you weren't considered tainted if you didn't marry the first person you dated or even the second. No kissing, no hand holding, no touching at all. Six inches apart until you joined hands at the wedding altar.

Not Calvinist. People were not automatically damned to hell or destined to heaven. A person had to have a specific time that they accepted Christ as their Savior to be considered saved/a Christian. Baptism (by immersion) happened only after that. Babies weren't sprinkled, but they had a dedication ceremony, promising to raise the child by their beliefs. Someone mentioned babies- until the age of accountability, all went to heaven. Mentally challenged people could be so challenged as to never reach the age of accountability.

Premillenial, obviously none of us would suffer through the tribulation.

They believed in Baptist succession-ism, an unbroken line from John the Baptist to the modern day IFBx church. You could be a Christian if you weren't IFBx, but you weren't going to heaven "first class" and you might just be a guest at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb instead of part of the Bride of Christ.

College actually was encouraged, even for girls, but it needed to be an IFBx college. As I mentioned in another thread PCC was considered liberal and not Baptist. Bob Jones, Senior, was quoted, but they hated BJU. Too intellectual. And accredited; they had given in to government oversight. The churches usually had a school attached to them that they preferred over members homeschooling. Very, very few attended other schools, public or private.

Women usually did not work; men were to be the sole breadwinners and the wives keepers at home. Women who did work were looked down on. There wasn't anything wrong with having a boss like you see from the Bates/Duggars crowd, though plenty did own their own businesses. Military service was not looked down on at all, though they would rather the young people go to Christian college and prepare for ministry than to enter the military.

I don't think the IBLP/ATI types require at least weekly soul winning (door knocking) and bus routes (picking up kids to take them to church). If you did not do at least one, preferably both, then you were bad, bad, bad and might just as well go to the liberal church down the road if you refused to "get with the program". If you couldn't get at least one persona week to pray the sinners prayer, then you weren't Right with God.

Anything else?

 

 

This sounds almost exactly right except that we could work as unmarried females. Once we got married, the work had to stop, though (unless it was something like Mary Kay or Avon, and even that was fairly questionable). 

[formergothardite]

@refugee It was Mike Warnke I was thinking of. Apparently he is way less funny, and after a google search, way more crazy, than I remembered.

[FormerlyFundyLite]

On the whole public baptism front,  it was explained to me that believer's baptism is a public profession of faith,  so getting dunked in your personal bath tub wouldn't work--you need witnesses,  although the number necessary is up for debate.  I was baptized in front of my congregation, but I know that actual public baptisms are pretty common in many churches in Protestant minority counties. I've also heard an explanation that in some Hindu and Muslim majority countries, baptism is seen as the official breaking with your "inherited" religion. For example,  an "other faith background" Believer's family is much more likely to disown or abandon them once they have been baptized. Until that point,  I guess they still hold out hope that the Believer is just going through a phase and will come back to the family faith,  but baptism is the point of no return. 

[paganbaby]

11 hours ago, FormerlyFundyLite said:

On the whole public baptism front,  it was explained to me that believer's baptism is a public profession of faith,  so getting dunked in your personal bath tub wouldn't work--you need witnesses,  although the number necessary is up for debate.  I was baptized in front of my congregation, but I know that actual public baptisms are pretty common in many churches in Protestant minority counties. I've also heard an explanation that in some Hindu and Muslim majority countries, baptism is seen as the official breaking with your "inherited" religion. For example,  an "other faith background" Believer's family is much more likely to disown or abandon them once they have been baptized. Until that point,  I guess they still hold out hope that the Believer is just going through a phase and will come back to the family faith,  but baptism is the point of no return. 

I can see the logic in that. But it seems unworkable to thrust yourself into some public venue like a swimming pool in a busy park. Unless, of course, you want people to complain so you can feel oppressed. (I have to admit that I can't be objective on this score because there is no way I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the pastor in my example. I know too much about him, and anything he says or does is immediately suspect in my mind.)

[PartriarchydefyinValkarie]

"My virgin daughters are now on sale!! Only three sheep each or best offer."

Oh my... Thor this is INSANE but this is the problem that fundies create. They shame talking to the opposite sex and then expect marriages to spring up once their systems are running. (I laughed so hard when the Botkinettes came on GR and tried to push their book 'Its NOT that complicated')

Kevin Swanson of Generations Radio does a program like this but he doesn't instantly refer to it as a marriage camp. When they do family conferences he notes that the like minded young men and women are getting to know eachother (with mom, dad, and siblings breathing down their necks of course) and that these conferences will lead to Godly marriages... 

Or people who will bond and maybe marry after breaking away from this insanity.

[FundieFarmer]

43 minutes ago, PartriarchydefyinValkarie said:

(I laughed so hard when the Botkinettes came on GR and tried to push their book 'Its NOT that complicated')

Exactly! Because it IS that complicated when you're locked away from the world forever...

[PartriarchydefyinValkarie]

44 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

Exactly! Because it IS that complicated when you're locked away from the world forever...

Oh I know! The Botkinettes really should just stick to talking about writing instead of relationships considering they've never had one. Also Generations radio isn't the only place they put a shameful plug of their book if you want if you watch the movie princess cut they plug it there too is a courtship book.

[Marian the Librarian]

Vaughn has updated his FB page:

Quote

 

To whom it may concern:

Recently it has been brought to my attention that FB and other internet activities have been taking way too much time away from my family, and so I have decided to take a sabbatical. I will probably keep the account open for technical reasons and for the purposes of being able to answer messenger texts etc. But I will be doing my best not to be intereacting thereon.

 

Uh-huh.

[PartriarchydefyinValkarie]

10 hours ago, Marian the Librarian said:

Vaughn has updated his FB page:

Uh-huh.

I wonder if like K. Swanson he will drag his family out to the middle of no where as well?

[Destiny]

On 5/22/2016 at 9:28 AM, Marian the Librarian said:

Vaughn has updated his FB page:

It is my life's ambition to 1) get this guy kicked out of every convention he tries to speak at, and 2) get Vaughn Ohlman is a creeper as one of the options on google when someone looks for this guy. I hate him so fucking much it hurts.

[SilverBeach]

On 5/13/2016 at 4:57 PM, EmiGirl said:

The reformed part of that particular church deminiation refers to being Calvinistic in theology. But just "reformed" is not a denomination in itself. At least that's what my pastor told me when I asked him about all this.

Your pastor was wrong. I belong to a church that is part of the Reformed Church in America (RCA) denomination. There is also the Christian Reformed Church (CRC) denomination. Both share a nearly 500 year history and were formerly known as the Dutch Reformed Church. The RCA has a nice website, the CRC probably does too.

[Anonymousguest]

7 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Your pastor was wrong. I belong to a church that is part of the Reformed Church in America (RCA) denomination. There is also the Christian Reformed Church (CRC) denomination. Both share a nearly 500 year history and were formerly known as the Dutch Reformed Church. The RCA has a nice website, the CRC probably does too.

There is also the CREC the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches. Maybe not enough churches to be a denomination, but enough to be something. 

[FundieFarmer]

12 hours ago, Destiny said:

It is my life's ambition to 1) get this guy kicked out of every convention he tries to speak at, and 2) get Vaughn Ohlman is a creeper as one of the options on google when someone looks for this guy. I hate him so fucking much it hurts.

I could absolutely get with Vaughn Ohlman is a creeper. 

7 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Your pastor was wrong. I belong to a church that is part of the Reformed Church in America (RCA) denomination. There is also the Christian Reformed Church (CRC) denomination. Both share a nearly 500 year history and were formerly known as the Dutch Reformed Church. The RCA has a nice website, the CRC probably does too.

And the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Churches (ARP). And the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA). 

[EmiGirl]

7 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Your pastor was wrong. I belong to a church that is part of the Reformed Church in America (RCA) denomination. There is also the Christian Reformed Church (CRC) denomination. Both share a nearly 500 year history and were formerly known as the Dutch Reformed Church. The RCA has a nice website, the CRC probably does too.

But the reformed part of the name refers to reformed theology.

http://www.theopedia.com/reformed-theology

http://www.challies.com/articles/what-it-means-to-be-reformed

 

A church can subscribe to reformed theology and be a part of a denomination like the SBC or be independent or non denominational.

[SilverBeach]

12 minutes ago, EmiGirl said:

But the reformed part of the name refers to reformed theology.

http://www.theopedia.com/reformed-theology

http://www.challies.com/articles/what-it-means-to-be-reformed

 

A church can subscribe to reformed theology and be a part of a denomination like the SBC or be independent or non denominational.

I'm  not disagreeing with that. But as a member of an actual Reformed denomination that has been around for centuries, and because words have meaning, I think it is important to be clear that Reformed absolutely is a stand-alone denomination and not just an adjective.

BTW, I am well informed about reformed  theology as promulgated by John Calvin. Many churches using reformed as an adjective mean something else entirely.

FWIW, theology matters little to me, it is how faith is lived out, in love, that matters in my life. But, like I already said, words have meaning and it is important to have clarity.

[Ungodly Grandma]

On 5/26/2016 at 3:04 AM, SilverBeach said:

Your pastor was wrong. I belong to a church that is part of the Reformed Church in America (RCA) denomination. There is also the Christian Reformed Church (CRC) denomination. Both share a nearly 500 year history and were formerly known as the Dutch Reformed Church. The RCA has a nice website, the CRC probably does too.

We have a Dutch Reformed Church here in our town. Pre Revolutionary, still a thriving community, and part of the larger community.

[samurai_sarah]

Carry on here: