Fundie Retreat to Marry Off Children ~ Vaughn Ohlman

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

5 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

God, I miss seeing Vaughn's crazy-ass posts on the Reconstructionist Theonomists Facebook page (they closed the group). And Nathaniel Darnell's pathetic attempts to rein in Vaughn's cray. Good times. 

Don't worry, it has been totally boring over there lately. 

[hoipolloi]

No one like a fundie Christian for monkey see, monkey do, especially when it comes to fleecing the sheeple.

Vaughn's marriage retreat sounds like a much more expensive version of the Pearls' Shindig.

ETA: I'll say that's a tentative schedule!

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TENTATIVE SCHEDULE

Thursday 4 pm: Check-in
Thursday 6 pm: Dinner
Friday - To Be Announced
Saturday - To Be Announced
Sunday: Breakfast (in an effort to give families the flexibility to attend church on their own, we will be providing a bag breakfast)

 

Except for the check-in, looks like would-be participants could stay home & do the rest!

[K'Z'K]

Maybe they're waiting for the kind denizens of FJ to come up with lecture titles. I'll start...

"It's like Legos: horrifying analogies that will fail to keep your kids from having sex or walking around barefoot"

"Tips for a 'happy' marriage"

"You touch it, you bought it."

"The evils of hand-holding before marriage: a case study with Josh Duggar"

"Fuck your woman, fuck your man, it is all part of God's plan (but only once your fathers say it's OK)"

"We are obsessed with the status of our daughters' genitals but it's transwomen who are icky: how to resolve cognitive dissonance"

 

I know there are some amazing ideas out there....

 

[Toothfairy]

Christianmingle is better. 

[Jucifer]

33 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

 

Vaughn's marriage retreat sounds like a much more expensive version of the Pearls' Shindig.

I couldn't resist clicking on that NGJ link. 

Let's analyze this photo, shall we?

A group of ghostly children are smiling and poking a campfire with sticks.  They're kind of there and not there at the same time.

Are they ghosts of their former selves after their parents became Pearl-ized?

And check out that sinister figure in the middle background. Is it someone sneaking up on them or is it just a clump of dark weeds?  Is it a spy making a list of their misdeeds so they can be punished later? 

[CyborgKin]

For a moment I thought my dad might find this amusing, but I don't want to give him ideas.

[RosyDaisy]

Am I the only one who sees this as a form of human trafficking?

[teachergirl]

I wrote about this in another thread...did he even get enough families to register? He had to have fifty to secure the venue/. The prices were very high, around 1500 per family before the cost of getting there. And yes, because he believes in betrothal, this could be seen as  a form of trafficking if not an arranged marriage. How much say do we think these poor women who go will have when choosing their mate?

[Ungodly Grandma]

4 hours ago, KZK said:

Maybe they're waiting for the kind denizens of FJ to come up with lecture titles. I'll start...

"It's like Legos: horrifying analogies that will fail to keep your kids from having sex or walking around barefoot"

"Tips for a 'happy' marriage"

"You touch it, you bought it."

"The evils of hand-holding before marriage: a case study with Josh Duggar"

"Fuck your woman, fuck your man, it is all part of God's plan (but only once your fathers say it's OK)"

"We are obsessed with the status of our daughters' genitals but it's transwomen who are icky: how to resolve cognitive dissonance"

 

I know there are some amazing ideas out there....

 

Modest but Minx-y, How to Dress for Godly Men

Carbs, Cans and Campbell's Soups, How to Feed a Fundie Family

 

 

4 hours ago, Jucifer said:

I couldn't resist clicking on that NGJ link. 

Let's analyze this photo, shall we?

A group of ghostly children are smiling and poking a campfire with sticks.  They're kind of there and not there at the same time.

Are they ghosts of their former selves after their parents became Pearl-ized?

And check out that sinister figure in the middle background. Is it someone sneaking up on them or is it just a clump of dark weeds?  Is it a spy making a list of their misdeeds so they can be punished later? 

That sinister figure is the Devil, come to build a fortress in their hearts.

[Howl]

9 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

I have my doubts that the event will pan out, tbh; how many families are there who are willing to shell out over a thousand dollars for the opportunity to watch their kid awkwardly ask randos if he is allowed to talk to their daughters?

But you make it sound so creepy.....

[nastyhobbitses]

11 hours ago, Marian the Librarian said:

Ah yes - this is what I like to call "fundie booty call."

I wonder if the Botkinettes will attend...

What would Fundie Tinder be like? "Jesus laid it on my heart to swipe right for you".

[Howl]

1 hour ago, Ungodly Grandma said:

"We are obsessed with the status of our daughters' genitals but it's transwomen who are icky: how to resolve cognitive dissonance"

Brilliant.

[foreign fundie]

19 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

What would Fundie Tinder be like? "Jesus laid it on my heart to swipe right for you".

I think any fundie courting app/site would soon run into the problem of how to choose a girl when they are al the same?

Can you imagine the profile photo's? Same hairdo, same dress style, same adoring smile. And then they have the same favourite book (Bible) same favourite music, hobbies can be one of playing piano/ violin, baking, sewing or photography, or all of them. They have the same education, the same future plans (be a mum with a quiver), I could go on. Heck, you'd need some devine guidance to choose the right one, for how else would you know?

Gothard produces cookie cutter girls. No wonder they came up with this 'any Christian man can marry any Christian woman" thing. If you deprive people of personality, that could work.

[Four is Enough]

If you're listening to lectures all day, how do you have time to meet and mingle?

How will the counselors know if Dad A objects to or permits Suitor Wannabe B?

Who patrols the dormitories? Does each prospective spouse have their own room? (I smell hanky panky!)

Will they break off into "discussion groups" so that there can be introductions made?

Will there be a minister onsite, and a wedding planning setup, so they can claim immediate success?

 

So. Many. Questions.

 

 

[CloakNDagger]

Ah yes - this is what I like to call "fundie booty call."

I wonder if the Botkinettes will attend...

Not in 100 years. They are not friends with Vaughn.

[eightykatie]

Wow.  This is a special amount of crazy.

I was reading the FAQs.  They basically believe the woman should be traded by her father

Quote

Courtship denies the authority of the father over the marriage of their virgin children. While they often give a veto to the parents of the woman, they specifically deny the authority of the father of the groom or the bride to choose a spouse for their children.

We believe that Scripture teaches quite clearly that the father does have the power to choose a spouse for their virgin child; and we see this in several Scriptural examples.

 

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We believe that Scripture teaches that a young man and woman should best go from being mere brother and sister to husband and wife.

 Courtship makes a big deal, in their teaching on the path to marriage, that the couple is supposed to go through a whole series of stages of relationship ranging from ‘pre-friendship’ all the way to ‘engagement’. At the same time they are supposed to be developing emotional and romantic (and spiritual and social) attachments commensurate with their level of relationship.

We teach, on the other hand, that a couple is not supposed to ‘fall in love’ before they are in covenant; they are to be brothers and sisters to each other… with all that that implies, but nothing specifically romantic.

M) We believe that delayed/denied marriages cause the Word of God to be blasphemed, and turn our young people over to Satan. Courtship advocates tend to think that the real danger is a ‘bad’ marriage.

None of this "getting to know you" nonsense.  Do you have the necessary parts?  Then off to it!  Be fruitful already.  Oh, and if you're not - then obvs. it's because God hates you and you are not spiritual enough.

 

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The true love of Scripture is an obedient love, which does hard things in difficult circumstances. The true love of Scripture loves the otherwise unlovable, because having been unlovable it was loved. The true love of Scripture is a relationship and an action, not a feeling.

 

So hey, no worries if you hate your spouse.  You now have to love them (and have sex with them, don't forget that!) because that's the true love of the Scripture.

And don't forget the bride price!  Just in case this didn't stink too much of selling off your daughters like prized oxen.

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Bride price: What is it, and why is it important? Wouldn't a bride price be like selling your daughter? A "bride price" is anything paid or given by the man or his representative at the time of his betrothal or receiving his bride.

Scripture certainly teaches about it, but it is not mandated, however, except in the case of a couple of laws. The law concerning bride price (Exodus 22:16-17) indicates that part of the punishment for fornication with an unbetrothed woman is the payment of a "standard" bride price for virgins, indicating that the bride price was a normal part of the marriage process.

The bride price plays a significant function: It shows the woman's value, and the point isn’t that the father gets the money but that he keeps it for his daughter, if her husband should ever abandon her

Sexual chemistry is non important (or doesn't exist?)  It's all about slot A fitting into slot B.

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Considering it is their parents who would be finding them a spouse, what would be their basis for objecting? Looks? How much money they have? Their hobbies or interests? Maybe their personality? All of these things can change and likely will change over the course of a marriage. 

They honestly come RIGHT OUT and say the people marrying HAVE NO CHOICE

Quote

Doesn’t a legitimate marriage require the consent of both the people marrying? Scripture speaks of the father of the son “taking a wife” for his son, and the father of the bride “giving” her to her husband (Jeremiah 29: 6; Judges 21: 7; Ezra 9:12; Nehemiah 10: 30; 1 Corinthians 7:36-38). It gives example after example of young women being given to young men, without the young woman even being consulted, and often, in some of the most Godly marriages in Scripture, the young man is not consulted.

....

Then, the son or daughter, must “consent” to the marriage—but it is very important to realize that this type of “consent” is the kind of obedient consent we see in the examples of Adam, Eve, Isaac, Rebecca, and Christ. It is consent where the son or daughter, realizing that their father has bound them and then submits to the covenant as binding, recognizing the good gift their father has given them.

I can't even.....

 

Oh Lordy, it gets worse ( I know, you didn't think that possible, huh?)

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How young should people get married? We think that if people are honest with themselves, they really already know the answer to this question. When do boys become men and girls become women? When are their bodies developed enough to have children? 

My friend's 9-year old got her period last month.  Better get her to the conference!

(I cannot read anymore.  It might get worse.  I don't want to know)

[refugee]

15 hours ago, Leftitinmysnood said:

Well, since those quiverfull kids aren't getting married fast enough, Vaughn Ohlman has decided to have a retreat to gather all the unwed single people together and pair them off. http://letthemmarry.org/gtm-retreat

Money quotes include, "We are not attempting to limit our conference to Calvinists, but we feel we owe our participants some kind of assurance that they are coming to meet with other Christians."

In all broad mindedness, they accept that daughters may come without a headship, but a young man interested in pursuing her must speak to one of the staff about his intentions.

I want to throw up. I had a physical, visceral reaction to reading this.

We came out of a church where they'd be applauding this.

14 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Oh lord, this is there minimum definition of marriage: 

Quote

a lifelong sexual relationship that is always open to the blessing of children.

Yep, no need for respect or commitment or a promise in front of God and witnesses, or, hell, love...just a sexual relationship with no birth control. By that definition it could be someone who is a longtime, steady customer to a particular prostitute...

Or that guy who kept the three women prisoner in his basement. Thankfully my brain is not bringing his name to mind at the moment.

(Didn't they raze his house, to cheers by the onlookers?)

12 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

I have my doubts that the event will pan out, tbh; how many families are there who are willing to shell out over a thousand dollars for the opportunity to watch their kid awkwardly ask randos if he is allowed to talk to their daughters?

There have been similar events already. I know of at least two that were put on by this group of people:

http://www.homeschoolalumni.org/

[refugee]

3 hours ago, teachergirl said:

I wrote about this in another thread...did he even get enough families to register? He had to have fifty to secure the venue/. The prices were very high, around 1500 per family before the cost of getting there. And yes, because he believes in betrothal, this could be seen as  a form of trafficking if not an arranged marriage. How much say do we think these poor women who go will have when choosing their mate?

I wonder if some of them would see it as getting at least *some* autonomy as opposed to living under Dad's micromanagement -- providing they are able to attract the attention of a guy who is not a micromanaging control freak.

[Elegant Mess]

11 minutes ago, refugee said:

I want to throw up. I had a physical, visceral reaction to reading this.

We came out of a church where they'd be applauding this.

Or that guy who kept the three women prisoner in his basement. Thankfully my brain is not bringing his name to mind at the moment.

(Didn't they raze his house, to cheers by the onlookers?)

There have been similar events already. I know of at least two that were put on by this group of people:

http://www.homeschoolalumni.org/

To the bolded:  The person I believe you're thinking of was Ariel Castro.  Shortly after starting his life sentence (and then some!), he hanged himself.  And, yes, his house was completely razed.

 

[nausicaa]

40 minutes ago, eightykatie said:

Wow.  This is a special amount of crazy.

I was reading the FAQs.  They basically believe the woman should be traded by her father

 

None of this "getting to know you" nonsense.  Do you have the necessary parts?  Then off to it!  Be fruitful already.  Oh, and if you're not - then obvs. it's because God hates you and you are not spiritual enough.

 

So hey, no worries if you hate your spouse.  You now have to love them (and have sex with them, don't forget that!) because that's the true love of the Scripture.

And don't forget the bride price!  Just in case this didn't stink too much of selling off your daughters like prized oxen.

Sexual chemistry is non important (or doesn't exist?)  It's all about slot A fitting into slot B.

They honestly come RIGHT OUT and say the people marrying HAVE NO CHOICE

I can't even.....

 

Wow.  When you make the Maxwells look romantic...

[JMarie]

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Accommodations are limited: we can accept, at most, 21 families or 150 attendees. We must have, at a minimum, 6 families or 50 attendees.

So, each family will have seven to eight members?  What if each family only has one or two kids looking to get married?  Seems like a waste for the younger kids, since the entire focus is marriage.  Of course, there's no mention about minimum ages, so maybe families are going to go with the intention of getting all the kids paired off.

[JMarie]

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Young Marriage

How young should people get married? We think that if people are honest with themselves, they really already know the answer to this question. When do boys become men and girls become women? When are their bodies developed enough to have children? When do they begin to develop romantic interest in the opposite sex, and when does fornication begin to become an issue?

The Bible provides many reasons for marriage, and most if not all of them demonstrate that marriage typically ought to happen in the youth (as in, before the age of 20).

We also quote some old commentators (Calvin, Gill, Luther) who assign particular age ranges to clarify what we should already know to be “youth”. (Seriously, most churches today have “youth groups”, which are for their teenage population.) And we generally agree with these men. John Calvin defines the “flower of her age” (1 Corinthians 7:36) as “from twelve to twenty years of age”. Likewise, John Gill defines it as “one of twelve years and a half old”. And Martin Luther says, “A young man should marry at the age of twenty at the latest, a young woman at fifteen to eighteen…” We do not endorse marriage at ages as young as twelve. Our position is that, for a woman:

1) The ‘youth’ ready for marriage has breasts. A woman who is to be married is one who has breasts; breasts which signal her readiness for marriage, and breasts who promise enjoyment for her husband. (We believe that ‘breasts’ here stand as a symbol for all forms of full secondary sexual characteristics.)

2) The ‘youth’ ready for marriage is ready to bear children. Unlike modern society Scripture sees the woman as a bearer, nurser, and raiser of children. The ‘young woman’ is the woman whose body is physically ready for these things, physically mature enough to handle them without damage.

3) The 'youth' ready for marriage is one who is ready for sexual intercourse sexually and emotionally. Her desire is for her husband, and she is ready to rejoice in him physically.

All three of the above points represent, not a certain exact age, but a level of physical and sexual maturity. Not ‘maturity’ as in ‘been there, done that’, nor even a ‘maturity’ as in ‘have been at this level for a long time’, but a point of arrival. But we are certainly in agreement with the commentators that marriage (in order to be timely and to accomplish its purposes) ought to happen before the age of twenty for almost everyone.

 

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What if my children aren't ready? If they are of age and you are confident that they do not fall into one of the three Biblical categories of "eunuch", then they need to be ready for marriage. Re-examine your idea of readiness. Get them ready.

 

[refugee]

15 minutes ago, JMarie said:

When do they begin to develop romantic interest in the opposite sex,

Well, in a couple of homeschool group situations (one a co-op, and another a choir), 11- and 12-yo girls were chasing some of the 11-14yo boys, who wanted nothing to do with the whole thing. Okay, so that means start marrying the 11yo daughters to the 15yo sons???

To the bolded:  The person I believe you're thinking of was Ariel Castro.  Shortly after starting his life sentence (and then some!), he hanged himself.  And, yes, his house was completely razed.

 

Yes, you're right, that was the guy. The only name I could think of was the guy who played "Lou Grant" on the Mary Tyler Moore show (and I don't want to sully his name by attaching it to that news story). Does your brain do that? Insist that a name is "something like" the name you're trying to think of, when they actually have nothing in common at all?

And @Eightykatie, you're right. These guys are to the right of *courtship* -- they are such control freaks, they don't believe in giving their kids any choice in the matter at all.

Horrible. Treating living, breathing, feeling people like chess pieces. Or worse.

Oh, wait. Emotion probably gets trained out of these poor kids.

[nickelodeon]

I don't remember if we talked about Crazy Von's letter "To That Girl Who Just Broke Off Her Courtship" in the last thread about this blog, so I'm bringin' it back. In response to a girl who breaks off a courtship because her boyf is "too eager for the marriage bed":

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That is a shame. I mean, I suppose you aren't allowed to admit it, or talk about it, but you were probably looking forward to a young man that was eager for your marriage bed, no? One that would eagerly do his best to 'be fruitful and multiply'? And now, of course, your having rejected him, he will struggle even more. Wow, what a shame.

[INSERT KILL BILL SOUNDTRACK HERE]

Something something too bad now you'll never get to buy dishes for your own house something something too bad now you'll never get to show off your "latest newborn" to the other church ladies yada yada. Ya should have settled!!

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Have you considered that, just maybe, God didn't want you to marry the perfect man? That perhaps a man who was less  Godly than you thought he should be, more tempted by fornication, more prone to laziness, and all of those things that, we all agree, were legitimate problems in that boy who was courting you, that perhaps it was a man like that, perhaps even that man, who God wanted you to marry?

[KILL BILL SOUNDTRACK INTENSIFIES]

Okay, I'm not particularly sympathetic with the old FJ reasoning that "these SAHDs have been brainwashed to want righteous marriage and babies their whole lives and so we should be rooting for them to get that at any cost," but I think it's vile of this guy to treat "older single girls" like they're hopeless and unlovable. He can go jump.

[CTRLZero]

I see the venue for this marriage opportunity fest is run by the Salvation Army.  Do they condone this sort of behavior or don't care?  They are always after me for donations, so maybe I'll ask.