Help an undecided voter

[formergothardite]

Trump says whatever the hell is convenient, but the list of judges he would consider are being praised by anti-choice groups. So he might do shit, but what about the people he helps get into positions of power? 

[sockinshoe]

The thing is that nobody knows what Trump is gonna do, which is insane. He's a presidential candidate and he should have a a damn platform. I'm Canadian, so I'm not voting in the American election, but if I were, I'd be feeling the Bern very hard. I think he's terrific, and I agree with him on almost all of his policies. However, if Hillary wins the primaries, I'll be hoping she wins. I would vote for Vermin Supreme over Trump. I would vote for a piece of burnt toast over Trump. Trump is completely mercenary and totally unaccountable. The fact that I have no idea what he wants to do (outside of his infamous wall and banning all Muslims) is terrifying. I don't understand how people who are otherwise rational and decent can vote for a man who wants to ban all Muslims from the US for an indeterminate amount of time, who supports and advocates for policies that would burn children in their beds, who wants to steal resources from another sovereign nation, who doesn't understand NAFTA or any other trade agreement, who thinks the US can just antagonize whoever without suffering at all,... I could go on.

[Sundaymorning]

2 hours ago, sockinshoe said:

The thing is that nobody knows what Trump is gonna do, which is insane. He's a presidential candidate and he should have a a damn platform. I'm Canadian, so I'm not voting in the American election, but if I were, I'd be feeling the Bern very hard. I think he's terrific, and I agree with him on almost all of his policies. However, if Hillary wins the primaries, I'll be hoping she wins. I would vote for Vermin Supreme over Trump. I would vote for a piece of burnt toast over Trump. Trump is completely mercenary and totally unaccountable. The fact that I have no idea what he wants to do (outside of his infamous wall and banning all Muslims) is terrifying. I don't understand how people who are otherwise rational and decent can vote for a man who wants to ban all Muslims from the US for an indeterminate amount of time, who supports and advocates for policies that would burn children in their beds, who wants to steal resources from another sovereign nation, who doesn't understand NAFTA or any other trade agreement, who thinks the US can just antagonize whoever without suffering at all,... I could go on.

I agree. I don't feel the Bern at all, his policies sound good the way populist policies often sound, but they aren't sustainable. But I'd vote for him over Trump any day.

I seriously don't get those people who think it's a good idea to vote for Trump, or those "progressives" who'd rather accept the danger of having a president Trump instead of just biting the bullet and vote for Clinton.

[Witherwings]

1 hour ago, Sundaymorning said:

I agree. I don't feel the Bern at all, his policies sound good the way populist policies often sound, but they aren't sustainable. But I'd vote for him over Trump any day.

I seriously don't get those people who think it's a good idea to vote for Trump, or those "progressives" who'd rather accept the danger of having a president Trump instead of just biting the bullet and vote for Clinton.

*Disclaimer @Sundaymorning, while this is going to sound like a direct attack on you and what you said, it isn't. I get what you are saying, as I very often say things like "I don't understand why people aren't asking more questions about the emails." I also realize that for whatever reason, the emails may not be important to everyone. 

I would say that I seriously don't get those people who think it is a good idea to vote for Clinton, or those "progressives" who'd rather accept the danger of having a president Clinton instead of just biting the bullet and vote for Trump." but I really don't feel that way. I get it. I understand where some feel inclined to vote for someone based on certain issues and I absolutely agree with Clinton supporters in regards to some of those issues. I also respect and love that we live in a place where we can be "those people" or the other people, or someone entirely different. We are allowed to question candidates, say what we want about candidates and think for ourselves. We can vote for whoever we damn well feel like voting for. 

What I do not like is seeing anyone talk about any voter as "those people" as if they are foolish idiots and not capable of making important (or not so important) decisions. Like it or not, "those people" who think it is a good idea to vote for Trump, are allowed to do so. That is how our system works and unless you think people should not be able to vote based on who they are voting for, "those people" ultimately need to be trusted. 

'Not even my wife knows': secret Donald Trump voters speak out

I don't agree with all opinions in the above link. I doubt each individual agrees with all opinions of the other individuals in the post. I am not trying to sway anyone to vote for Trump by sharing this link. What I find troubling is that there are people who are afraid of admitting they are voting for Trump because they don't want to be crucified by friends and family. Not everyone is voting for Trump for the same reasons or even because they like him.

I also understand really disliking a candidate. I have voiced my opinions here and many have voiced their own. You can hate Trump all you want. You are allowed to do that, but remember, others may feel the same way about another candidate. 

[Sundaymorning]

@Witherwings I said I don't truly don't understand those people, not that I want to strip their voting rights from them. I believe in freedom of expression, but that goes for both sides. Other people are completely entitled to think/believe what they want, but I'm also allowed to say that I find their beliefs/opinions/etc. extremely stupid. And believe me, there are plenty of people who find my political positions absolutely atrocious, so I know a thing or two about getting attacked, both on a issue-related, but also on a personal basis. But I still think that it is their right to find my political positions awful and voice that publicly.

I want to add that I also think that no one should get attacked on a personal basis or get ostracised because of who they are voting for. But this is a discussion board, and here I'll tell everyone to their face what I think of their political choices, and that is my right to do so, just like others are free to tell me what they think about my political opinions.

[Witherwings]

Just now, Sundaymorning said:

@Witherwings I said I don't truly don't understand those people, not that I want to strip their voting rights from them. I believe in freedom of expression, but that goes for both sides. Other people are completely entitled to think/believe what they want, but I'm also allowed to say that I find their beliefs/opinions/etc. extremely stupid. And believe me, there are plenty of people who find my political positions absolutely atrocious, so I know a thing or two about getting attacked, both on a issue-related, but also on a personal basis. But I still think that it is their right to find my political positions awful.

Oh, I know. That is why I added the disclaimer. Not everyone feels that way. I think I have mentioned things friends of mine have said regarding this issue. You are having this conversation and not demanding I run away, blocking me or calling me an idiot (that I recall or know of ) but not everyone is willing to have conversations like this. I think (and this is a guess based on my personal experiences) that there are far more people who are willing to admit they would vote for Clinton than those that will admit they are willing to vote for Trump. Of course that could be based on my circle of people I interact with. I don't know, but someone has been voting for Trump and of my 800+ friends on social media and friends and family I talk with in real life, I have only come across a few who have admitted they are voting for Trump.

[Sundaymorning]

1 minute ago, Witherwings said:

Oh, I know. That is why I added the disclaimer. Not everyone feels that way. I think I have mentioned things friends of mine have said regarding this issue. You are having this conversation and not demanding I run away, blocking me or calling me an idiot (that I recall or know of ) but not everyone is willing to have conversations like this. I think (and this is a guess based on my personal experiences) that there are far more people who are willing to admit they would vote for Clinton than those that will admit they are willing to vote for Trump. Of course that could be based on my circle of people I interact with. I don't know, but someone has been voting for Trump and of my 800+ friends on social media and friends and family I talk with in real life, I have only come across a few who have admitted they are voting for Trump.

I agree that this is a problem if people feel like they have to hide their political positions cause otherwise, everyone will gang up on them. But that isn't only a Trump voters problem. For example, some BernieBros are heavily attacking people who support Clinton. And I bet that if you live in a place where everyone is a Trump fan, telling people you want to vote for Sanders or Clinton, or, even worse, voted for Obama, won't make you any friends either. A few years ago, I saw this meme "friends don't let friends vote for democrats", so political peer pressure is all around.

[Witherwings]

3 minutes ago, Sundaymorning said:

I agree that this is a problem if people feel like they have to hide their political positions cause otherwise, everyone will gang up on them. But that isn't only a Trump voters problem. For example, some BernieBros are heavily attacking people who support Clinton. And I bet that if you live in a place where everyone is a Trump fan, telling people you want to vote for Sanders or Clinton, or, even worse, voted for Obama, won't make you any friends either. A few years ago, I saw this meme "friends don't let friends vote for democrats", so political peer pressure is all around.

Agreed. Yet, I have lived in many parts of the country and have friends all over. Yep, there are Bernie Bros, Hillarybots and even Facebook's algorithm has been brought to light. There have been cases of Trump, Bernie and Clinton supporters attacking other supporters. THOSE PEOPLE suck. Big time. That blows my mind. We live in America for fucks sake. I wonder why people are not respecting other's right to support who ever the fuck they want to support without resorting to violence. 

Luckily, I don't think the average person needs to worry that they are going to be beat up based on who they vote for, but really, what the hell is going on?

I have seen the same meme saying "friends don't let friends vote for Trump" and "friends don't let friends vote for republicans" Lame. All around. Friends let their friends vote for whoever they want to vote for. 

[JesusCampSongs]

As a Sanders supporter, I've definitely been attacked by Clinton supporters in some pretty WTF ways, which often involve baseless accusations of sexism, racism, ableism, etc., along with declarations that it'll be my fault if Trump wins if I don't suck it up and vote for her in the general. It's gotten pretty ugly, and I've lost a lot of a respect for people I consider friends as a result of their conduct over this election. 

I find it deeply distressing that the Democrats have decided that condemning people for voting their consciences is an acceptable thing to do. We talk a big game about being a big tent and a coalition, but that's clearly not the case these days. Specifically, I think it's pretty ridiculous to ignore and deride progressive concerns in the nominating process/the party as a whole and then demand that they vote Democrat in the general. I also think it's worth noting that many progressives wouldn't have voted for Clinton even if Sanders hadn't been an option--- they would have gone with Stein. To them, Sanders is the compromise candidate. 

Interestingly, my dad has been facing similar issues as a Republican who won't vote for Trump. He's being accused of aiding and abetting a Clinton victory and everything that entails to the right wing. 

Apart from the overall nastiness of this election, I'm really worried that the DNC establishment's mishandling of the nomination process is going to result in progressives and left-leaning independents/libertarians bailing on the election altogether, which could cost the Dems downticket seats in federal and state legislatures. A Republican in the White House is bad, but a Republican in the White House with a Republican supermajority in both houses is significantly worse. 

[Witherwings]

2 minutes ago, JesusCampSongs said:

As a Sanders supporter, I've definitely been attacked by Clinton supporters in some pretty WTF ways, which often involve baseless accusations of sexism, racism, ableism, etc., along with declarations that it'll be my fault if Trump wins if I don't suck it up and vote for her in the general. It's gotten pretty ugly, and I've lost a lot of a respect for people I consider friends as a result of their conduct over this election. 

I find it deeply distressing that the Democrats have decided that condemning people for voting their consciences is an acceptable thing to do. We talk a big game about being a big tent and a coalition, but that's clearly not the case these days. Specifically, I think it's pretty ridiculous to ignore and deride progressive concerns in the nominating process/the party as a whole and then demand that they vote Democrat in the general. I also think it's worth noting that many progressives wouldn't have voted for Clinton even if Sanders hadn't been an option--- they would have gone with Stein. To them, Sanders is the compromise candidate. 

Interestingly, my dad has been facing similar issues as a Republican who won't vote for Trump. He's being accused of aiding and abetting a Clinton victory and everything that entails to the right wing. 

Apart from the overall nastiness of this election, I'm really worried that the DNC establishment's mishandling of the nomination process is going to result in progressives and left-leaning independents/libertarians to bail on the election altogether, which could cost the Dems downticket seats in federal and state legislatures. A Republican in the White House is bad, but a Republican in the White House with a Republican supermajority in both houses is significantly worse. 

I agree with most of your point here.

To the bolded, I am not a fan of a Republican or a Dem in the white house. I am certainly not a fan of either having the supermajority. I hate that we have a two-party system, but since we do, I appreciate seeing things change back and forth. To try to explain my point, I am tired of seeing us go left or right, as if those are the only two possible directions to go. I would not like to see us go continuously left or continuously right. 

[Sundaymorning]

@jesuscampsongs The thing is that saying that people who don't vote for Clinton or Trump are basically helping the other candidate win, is actually a fact. Of course, that is their right, but that doesn't take away the fact that they could have helped to change the election result.

Real life example: In Austria, we had the election of our next president today. No one won on the first ballot, so in the second round, it is Green against the Freedom Party of Austria. I held my nose, and voted green since I didn't want the right-wing nutjobs to win the election. The current result is so tight that we don't even know yet who won, the postal votes, which are counted tomorrow, will determine the final verdict. So, literally every vote counts, and that is why I bit the bullet and voted for a candidate whom I, under normal circumstances, wouldn't vote for at all, just to prevent a populist right-wing president.

[formergothardite]

@Witherwings are you not worried about how Trump seems to be willing to put people in positions of power who actually believe all those awful things he says? I am getting ready to have a teen daughter and it terrifies me how the republican party keeps working at stripping away women's rights. I also know Muslims who are terrified of what Trump would do because of the complete disdain he has shown towards Muslims. He has said that Islam hates America, like America isn't also made up of Islamic people. As a group that is already dealing with a lot of hate and violence towards them, he seems to be stirring up more hatred, and history shows us what happens when people start hating an entire group of people based on their religion. 

I'm looking at who I think would do the least amount of long term damage, and I don't see how it wouldn't be Trump. He just reeks hatred towards people who are already marginalized. 

[JesusCampSongs]

10 minutes ago, Witherwings said:

I agree with most of your point here.

To the bolded, I am not a fan of a Republican or a Dem in the white house. I am certainly not a fan of either having the supermajority. I hate that we have a two-party system, but since we do, I appreciate seeing things change back and forth. To try to explain my point, I am tired of seeing us go left or right, as if those are the only two possible directions to go. I would not like to see us go continuously left or continuously right. 

Don't get me wrong; I've been registered as a Democrat since I was old enough to vote (I actually cackled when I tickied the box knowing how much it would piss off my parents) and am pretty far left these days. 

I wish the US had a Parliamentary system like they do in Canada (and England, etc.) because I think it does a better job of representing people with minority views and is therefore more democratic overall. Instead, I have to support the NDP vicariously. ORANGE CRUSH!!!

[JesusCampSongs]

15 minutes ago, Sundaymorning said:

@jesuscampsongs The thing is that saying that people who don't vote for Clinton or Trump are basically helping the other candidate win, is actually a fact. Of course, that is their right, but that doesn't take away the fact that they could have helped to change the election result.

Real life example: In Austria, we had the election of our next president today. No one won on the first ballot, so in the second round, it is Green against the Freedom Party of Austria. I held my nose, and voted green since I didn't want the right-wing nutjobs to win the election. The current result is so tight that we don't even know yet who won, the postal votes, which are counted tomorrow, will determine the final verdict. So, literally every vote counts, and that is why I bit the bullet and voted for a candidate whom I, under normal circumstances, wouldn't vote for at all, just to prevent a populist right-wing president.

If we had multiple parties and runoffs, I'd probably be a lot more okay with voting for the "lesser evil" than I am now. 

I was more or less uneasily okay with voting for Clinton until her whole thing about Henry Kissinger being great happened, at which point, I was like, "....nooooooooooope." I really regret voting for Obama in 2012 despite the issues I had with his foreign policy decisions (read: when Clinton was Secretary of State), and every time I hear about MSF hospitals getting bombed by our troops or drone strikes killing innocent people or anything else in that vein, I remember that I voted for that. 

So what's worse? Voting for someone who you know full well is going to enact another 4-8 years of Bush II-style foreign policy or voting third party when it could result in the other guy enacting another 4-8 years of Bush II-style foreign policy (if not worse)? I know that there are other considerations involved, but voting Clinton despite my issues with her foreign policy because she's unlikely to tamper with abortion rights, LGBT rights, etc. smacks of the "Fuck you, I got mine" rhetoric that I criticize economic conservatives for. 

So I'm not totally sure what I will do. A lot can happen in between now and November. 

 

(ETA: Keep in mind that I'm Quaker. War is kind of a big deal to us.)

[Sundaymorning]

@jesuscampsongs I think it that in the US, it also really depends which state you live in. I mean, if you live, for example, in Alabama or Delaware, voting for a 3rd party candidate, or staying home altogether, won't really matter much.

But if you happen to live in a swing-state, things are different.

I know your pain, I have to admit that I've been contemplating to just not vote at all in today's Austrian president election. But I still held my nose and voted for the candiate I see as the lesser evil. And now, as the polls are literally 50% to 50%, and everyone is anxiously waiting for the final result tomorrow, I'm glad I still voted.

I've posted this link ones already, but I think this perspective is really important. These are tumblr comments of people who voted for Nader in 2000, and really regret that now. http://uhmanduhgee.tumblr.com/post/123989307896/hobbitballerina-artielu-kata-speaks

Spoiler

One of the comments:

I know how a lot of people here feel about Hilary. If I had my druthers, I would MUCH rather have Bernie Sanders as president because his politics so closely align with my own. Like, stunningly close. A-breath-of-fresh-air close.

But consider these words from an ancient, jaded, 34 year old fuck who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000…

NONE OF US agreed with Gore. I mean, not really, at least. He was Republican-lite. First off, his wife Tipper was a friggin’ censorship Nazi, Gore was a Southern Baptist who was mum on gay rights, and while he gave lip service to climate change, please note that An Inconvenient Truth had not been produced or filmed, and there wasn’t much in the way of supporting the Kyoto protocols in his platform. He supported the limited military action in Iraq, supported NAFTA, and supported driving our production overseas. There wasn’t much to his platform other than “less scary alternative to Bush”. In other words, he was problematic as hell.

Then there was Ralph Nader, a consumer rights advocate, a proponent of gay marriage before it became a mainstream cause to champion, against NAFTA, spoke out against the military industrial complex, was pro-union, and anti-corporate.

And I voted for him. Proudly. In the general election. My reasoning was that nearly everyone I knew was voting for him (and everyone I knew were fellow college age leftists) so if enough of us got together and enough of us wanted that change to happen, then it would, right?

“Well, we’re talking about the primaries,” I can already hear you say. And yes, we are. But consider this: if Bernie ends up not winning the primaries, and no one turns out to the polls to vote for Hilary so they can “make a statement” or because she’s “problematic”, or turns out and votes Green or some other third Party for those same reasons, then history will repeat itself with disastrous consequences.

Here’s what happened on election night, November 7, 2000:

We waited.  We watched Gore lose in battleground state after battleground state by just about the same number of votes that went to Ralph fucking Nader. Bush took all the dip shits who thought he’d be a swell feller to have a beer with. And then Florida and the recount and the Republican Party-led coup that stormed the voting recount, triggered the Supreme Court ruling and handed George W. Bush control of the country.

The first thing Bush did was reverse each and every executive order Clinton had put in place over the protestations of a crybaby Republican Congress, and most of those executive orders were designed to protect the middle class from corporate America and protect our budget surplus from the military industrial complex. Then Bush instituted legalized class warfare: the tax cuts that benefited the wealthy and still do to this day.

Then 9/11 happened.

If you’re 22 right now, then in 2001 you were 8 years old. In 2001, I was 20. I watched friends of mine who had joined the military because there were few other opportunities for them after high school get shipped to Iraq and Afghanistan and get their limbs blown off by IUDs. There are people I knew, people I ate lunch with every day, who are FUCKING DEAD right now.

This country was an unchecked fascist dictatorship for six years. Don’t believe me? Here’s the dictionary definition of fascism. And here’s what happened during the Bush regime.

Torture. Suppression of the press. Siphoning the nation’s wealth to the upper 1%, creating our current aristocracy. Investments made by principle members of the Bush regime in for-profit military-industrial corporations that were tasked with murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Sunsetting the assault weapons ban. The Defense of Marriage Act. The creation of the Department of Homeland Security. The loss of an entire city and fucking nothing done about it as people were drowning and starving to death in New Orleans. No Child Left UnTested Behind. A color coded number system on every day of the news telling Americans how frightened they needed to be that day that hilariously enough coincided with how far Bush dipped in the polls that week. He dipped, we went up to terror threat: orange. His poll numbers went back up. Like clockwork.

Between 2001 and 2005 us leftists who thought that there was no different than center-left Democrats and right wing Republicans got hit by a giant clue by four and watched the fucking Republicans dismantle our safety, economic security, and our entire way of life. No, the centrists are not the same. THE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE NOT THE SAME. One faction sort of listens to us. The other doesn’t give a shit about us and actively promotes policies designed to kill and silence us.

…

So for all the “problematic” that you imagine a Hilary Clinton presidency could be, I want you to imagine a Republican presidency (pick one) in which they want people like us fucking dead as pawns in their war games or fucking dying because they’ve stripped away the Affordable Healthcare Act.

So please Support Bernie Sanders. Support him because if enough leftists make their voices known through his candidacy, then NO MATTER WHAT it will influence the DNC platform next summer. Support him because we’re all passionate about returning America to a thriving, working democracy and flushing out the corporate lobbyist corruption that has held our entire government hostage for a decade.

But if he doesn’t win the primaries then you need to support Hilary Clinton. And I’m not kidding, I’m not being hyperbolic.  If the Republicans win, then you need to start preparing yourself for life under a fascist state.

Hint: it will help if you’re fundamentalist Christian, wealthy, white, straight, male, and cisgender. 

Otherwise, you’re fucked.

 

 

[JesusCampSongs]

11 minutes ago, Sundaymorning said:

@jesuscampsongs I think it that in the US, it also really depends which state you live in. I mean, if you live, for example, in Alabama or Delaware, voting for a 3rd party candidate, or staying home altogether, won't really matter much.

But if you happen to live in a swing-state, things are different.

I know your pain, I have to admit that I've been contemplating to just not vote at all in today's Austrian president election. But I still held my nose and voted for the candiate I see as the lesser evil. And now, as the polls are literally 50% to 50%, and everyone is anxiously waiting for the final result tomorrow, I'm glad I still voted.

I've posted this link ones already, but I think this perspective is really important. These are tumblr comments of people who voted for Nader in 2000, and really regret that now. http://uhmanduhgee.tumblr.com/post/123989307896/hobbitballerina-artielu-kata-speaks

  Reveal hidden contents

One of the comments:

I know how a lot of people here feel about Hilary. If I had my druthers, I would MUCH rather have Bernie Sanders as president because his politics so closely align with my own. Like, stunningly close. A-breath-of-fresh-air close.

But consider these words from an ancient, jaded, 34 year old fuck who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000…

NONE OF US agreed with Gore. I mean, not really, at least. He was Republican-lite. First off, his wife Tipper was a friggin’ censorship Nazi, Gore was a Southern Baptist who was mum on gay rights, and while he gave lip service to climate change, please note that An Inconvenient Truth had not been produced or filmed, and there wasn’t much in the way of supporting the Kyoto protocols in his platform. He supported the limited military action in Iraq, supported NAFTA, and supported driving our production overseas. There wasn’t much to his platform other than “less scary alternative to Bush”. In other words, he was problematic as hell.

Then there was Ralph Nader, a consumer rights advocate, a proponent of gay marriage before it became a mainstream cause to champion, against NAFTA, spoke out against the military industrial complex, was pro-union, and anti-corporate.

And I voted for him. Proudly. In the general election. My reasoning was that nearly everyone I knew was voting for him (and everyone I knew were fellow college age leftists) so if enough of us got together and enough of us wanted that change to happen, then it would, right?

“Well, we’re talking about the primaries,” I can already hear you say. And yes, we are. But consider this: if Bernie ends up not winning the primaries, and no one turns out to the polls to vote for Hilary so they can “make a statement” or because she’s “problematic”, or turns out and votes Green or some other third Party for those same reasons, then history will repeat itself with disastrous consequences.

Here’s what happened on election night, November 7, 2000:

We waited.  We watched Gore lose in battleground state after battleground state by just about the same number of votes that went to Ralph fucking Nader. Bush took all the dip shits who thought he’d be a swell feller to have a beer with. And then Florida and the recount and the Republican Party-led coup that stormed the voting recount, triggered the Supreme Court ruling and handed George W. Bush control of the country.

The first thing Bush did was reverse each and every executive order Clinton had put in place over the protestations of a crybaby Republican Congress, and most of those executive orders were designed to protect the middle class from corporate America and protect our budget surplus from the military industrial complex. Then Bush instituted legalized class warfare: the tax cuts that benefited the wealthy and still do to this day.

Then 9/11 happened.

If you’re 22 right now, then in 2001 you were 8 years old. In 2001, I was 20. I watched friends of mine who had joined the military because there were few other opportunities for them after high school get shipped to Iraq and Afghanistan and get their limbs blown off by IUDs. There are people I knew, people I ate lunch with every day, who are FUCKING DEAD right now.

This country was an unchecked fascist dictatorship for six years. Don’t believe me? Here’s the dictionary definition of fascism. And here’s what happened during the Bush regime.

Torture. Suppression of the press. Siphoning the nation’s wealth to the upper 1%, creating our current aristocracy. Investments made by principle members of the Bush regime in for-profit military-industrial corporations that were tasked with murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Sunsetting the assault weapons ban. The Defense of Marriage Act. The creation of the Department of Homeland Security. The loss of an entire city and fucking nothing done about it as people were drowning and starving to death in New Orleans. No Child Left UnTested Behind. A color coded number system on every day of the news telling Americans how frightened they needed to be that day that hilariously enough coincided with how far Bush dipped in the polls that week. He dipped, we went up to terror threat: orange. His poll numbers went back up. Like clockwork.

Between 2001 and 2005 us leftists who thought that there was no different than center-left Democrats and right wing Republicans got hit by a giant clue by four and watched the fucking Republicans dismantle our safety, economic security, and our entire way of life. No, the centrists are not the same. THE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE NOT THE SAME. One faction sort of listens to us. The other doesn’t give a shit about us and actively promotes policies designed to kill and silence us.

…

So for all the “problematic” that you imagine a Hilary Clinton presidency could be, I want you to imagine a Republican presidency (pick one) in which they want people like us fucking dead as pawns in their war games or fucking dying because they’ve stripped away the Affordable Healthcare Act.

So please Support Bernie Sanders. Support him because if enough leftists make their voices known through his candidacy, then NO MATTER WHAT it will influence the DNC platform next summer. Support him because we’re all passionate about returning America to a thriving, working democracy and flushing out the corporate lobbyist corruption that has held our entire government hostage for a decade.

But if he doesn’t win the primaries then you need to support Hilary Clinton. And I’m not kidding, I’m not being hyperbolic.  If the Republicans win, then you need to start preparing yourself for life under a fascist state.

Hint: it will help if you’re fundamentalist Christian, wealthy, white, straight, male, and cisgender. 

Otherwise, you’re fucked.

 

 

I was 16 in 2000, so I remember all of that. I also remember Hillary Clinton voting in favor of the Patriot Act in 2001 (and to reauthorize it in 2006) and the Iraq War in 2003. And while she says that those are mistakes now, her track record as Secretary of State indicates otherwise. I have a hard time believing that she'd be an improvement over Bush II in any way, shape, or form since she marched lockstep with him while he was in office and continued his legacy afterwards.

I live in North Carolina, which is a red-leaning swing state. I don't think it will be a swing state if Clinton gets the nomination, though. Trump will win by a landslide. 

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, Sundaymorning said:

@jesuscampsongs I think it that in the US, it also really depends which state you live in. I mean, if you live, for example, in Alabama or Delaware, voting for a 3rd party candidate, or staying home altogether, won't really matter much.

But if you happen to live in a swing-state, things are different.

I know your pain, I have to admit that I've been contemplating to just not vote at all in today's Austrian president election. But I still held my nose and voted for the candiate I see as the lesser evil. And now, as the polls are literally 50% to 50%, and everyone is anxiously waiting for the final result tomorrow, I'm glad I still voted.

I've posted this link ones already, but I think this perspective is really important. These are tumblr comments of people who voted for Nader in 2000, and really regret that now. http://uhmanduhgee.tumblr.com/post/123989307896/hobbitballerina-artielu-kata-speaks

  Reveal hidden contents

One of the comments:

I know how a lot of people here feel about Hilary. If I had my druthers, I would MUCH rather have Bernie Sanders as president because his politics so closely align with my own. Like, stunningly close. A-breath-of-fresh-air close.

But consider these words from an ancient, jaded, 34 year old fuck who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000…

NONE OF US agreed with Gore. I mean, not really, at least. He was Republican-lite. First off, his wife Tipper was a friggin’ censorship Nazi, Gore was a Southern Baptist who was mum on gay rights, and while he gave lip service to climate change, please note that An Inconvenient Truth had not been produced or filmed, and there wasn’t much in the way of supporting the Kyoto protocols in his platform. He supported the limited military action in Iraq, supported NAFTA, and supported driving our production overseas. There wasn’t much to his platform other than “less scary alternative to Bush”. In other words, he was problematic as hell.

Then there was Ralph Nader, a consumer rights advocate, a proponent of gay marriage before it became a mainstream cause to champion, against NAFTA, spoke out against the military industrial complex, was pro-union, and anti-corporate.

And I voted for him. Proudly. In the general election. My reasoning was that nearly everyone I knew was voting for him (and everyone I knew were fellow college age leftists) so if enough of us got together and enough of us wanted that change to happen, then it would, right?

“Well, we’re talking about the primaries,” I can already hear you say. And yes, we are. But consider this: if Bernie ends up not winning the primaries, and no one turns out to the polls to vote for Hilary so they can “make a statement” or because she’s “problematic”, or turns out and votes Green or some other third Party for those same reasons, then history will repeat itself with disastrous consequences.

Here’s what happened on election night, November 7, 2000:

We waited.  We watched Gore lose in battleground state after battleground state by just about the same number of votes that went to Ralph fucking Nader. Bush took all the dip shits who thought he’d be a swell feller to have a beer with. And then Florida and the recount and the Republican Party-led coup that stormed the voting recount, triggered the Supreme Court ruling and handed George W. Bush control of the country.

The first thing Bush did was reverse each and every executive order Clinton had put in place over the protestations of a crybaby Republican Congress, and most of those executive orders were designed to protect the middle class from corporate America and protect our budget surplus from the military industrial complex. Then Bush instituted legalized class warfare: the tax cuts that benefited the wealthy and still do to this day.

Then 9/11 happened.

If you’re 22 right now, then in 2001 you were 8 years old. In 2001, I was 20. I watched friends of mine who had joined the military because there were few other opportunities for them after high school get shipped to Iraq and Afghanistan and get their limbs blown off by IUDs. There are people I knew, people I ate lunch with every day, who are FUCKING DEAD right now.

This country was an unchecked fascist dictatorship for six years. Don’t believe me? Here’s the dictionary definition of fascism. And here’s what happened during the Bush regime.

Torture. Suppression of the press. Siphoning the nation’s wealth to the upper 1%, creating our current aristocracy. Investments made by principle members of the Bush regime in for-profit military-industrial corporations that were tasked with murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Sunsetting the assault weapons ban. The Defense of Marriage Act. The creation of the Department of Homeland Security. The loss of an entire city and fucking nothing done about it as people were drowning and starving to death in New Orleans. No Child Left UnTested Behind. A color coded number system on every day of the news telling Americans how frightened they needed to be that day that hilariously enough coincided with how far Bush dipped in the polls that week. He dipped, we went up to terror threat: orange. His poll numbers went back up. Like clockwork.

Between 2001 and 2005 us leftists who thought that there was no different than center-left Democrats and right wing Republicans got hit by a giant clue by four and watched the fucking Republicans dismantle our safety, economic security, and our entire way of life. No, the centrists are not the same. THE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE NOT THE SAME. One faction sort of listens to us. The other doesn’t give a shit about us and actively promotes policies designed to kill and silence us.

…

So for all the “problematic” that you imagine a Hilary Clinton presidency could be, I want you to imagine a Republican presidency (pick one) in which they want people like us fucking dead as pawns in their war games or fucking dying because they’ve stripped away the Affordable Healthcare Act.

So please Support Bernie Sanders. Support him because if enough leftists make their voices known through his candidacy, then NO MATTER WHAT it will influence the DNC platform next summer. Support him because we’re all passionate about returning America to a thriving, working democracy and flushing out the corporate lobbyist corruption that has held our entire government hostage for a decade.

But if he doesn’t win the primaries then you need to support Hilary Clinton. And I’m not kidding, I’m not being hyperbolic.  If the Republicans win, then you need to start preparing yourself for life under a fascist state.

Hint: it will help if you’re fundamentalist Christian, wealthy, white, straight, male, and cisgender. 

Otherwise, you’re fucked.

 

 

I really don't think that you can remotely compare the situation with Nadar in 2000 with a possible Sander's third party/ independent run in 2016.

At no point in time did Nadar have anywhere near the backing or popularity that Sanders has. People, in general, were also much more trusting of the election system until 2000, when the entire fiasco of hanging chads, races called before polls closed,  and a President eventually decided by the Supreme Court made many people much more cynical.

In 2000 a much smaller proportion of the electorate identified as Independent or third-party. Currently over 40% of voters identify as Independent. Republicans and Democrats each account for under 30%. And that doesn't take into account the substantial number of people who either registered with one of those two years ago- but have no strong alligience and don't vote a straight party ticket. Or those who register as Democrat or Republican just to vote in a closed state primary. Yet the primary process, which is completely driven by the Democrats and Republicans, which don't represent the majority of voters, is publically funded. And the two-party system rules the entire process. Which just leads to a stranglehold on any meaningful legislation that isn't geared towards protecting the corporations that control both parties. Veering left or right as long as it doesn't impact the bottom line.

Was the ACA great in a lot of ways? Sure. It expanded Medicaid for lots of folks ( if their state agreed ) expanded coverage for young people ( if their parents could afford to cover them) , got rid of pre-existing conditions clauses etc. BUT - it is still a system whose primary beneficiary is the insurance company and a structure that keeps people tied to employers solely for coverage, unfairly penalizes small businesses and dissuades self-employment, etc. In other words, it gives just enough to keep people from wriggling too hard under the corporate thumb. 

I'm tired of the whole " throwing your vote away" narrative. Demographically it just doesn't make sense in 2016. 

[Maggie Mae]

2 hours ago, Sundaymorning said:

@jesuscampsongs The thing is that saying that people who don't vote for Clinton or Trump are basically helping the other candidate win, is actually a fact. Of course, that is their right, but that doesn't take away the fact that they could have helped to change the election result.

There is a lot more to the 2000 election than just "some people voted third-party and we got stuck with Bush instead." He took 2.7% of the vote. The person we choose for President shouldn't be elected in such close races, it shows me that we have bigger problems in our society than trying to choose a president. 

The thing is, I became a democrat in 2008 so I could get free stuff with Obama on it. Before that I was independant. And I wouldn't have voted for Hillary if it had been her in 2008. I would have remained an independant voter, possibly voting for a third-party, like I did in 2000 and 2004. I might have voted McCain, right up until he chose Palin as his running mate. (Keep in mind that in the early 2000s I was fresh out of a very conservative private school and didn't really understand the complexity behind many issues. Also the late 90s/early 2000s were decent economically and my personal life hadn't taken me very far or wide)

I have no intention of voting for Hillary. I do not find my reasons to be 'stupid,' because while I understand the reasoning behind people's "NEVER TRUMP" I can't see that as anything other than fear mongering to keep a corrupt system in play. I will take a broken democratic party and the fear of Trump over violating my conscious and voting for someone who I completely disagree with and has had made some incredibly terrible choices. I do not like the way Hillary supports are reading one side of stories and trying to relabel all Sanders supporters as  conspiracy theorists. 

But overall, I just want this stupid election to be over. This is too much drama for one election. Where were are all the facebook memes when we reelect Senators and House Representatives? Where is the passion for local elections? Those are so much more important to people's daily lives and for some reason we have like 6% turnout or something ridiculous. 

[Sundaymorning]

@Mama Mia I'm not an expert on that, so maybe someone who has better insight in the states voters demographic could help out. But I'd guess that an independent Sanders run would mean that he might win a few blue states from Clinton, Trump would get the red ones, and Trump would have better chances in the swing states. So, in the end, Trump would get elected, while I really don't think that Sanders would have any chances in a GE. The GOP hasn't even started yet to attack him, and there is plenty of awful material, from his shady "rape fantasy" essay, to his statement on tape that bread lines and food rationing are a good thing, to his praise for dictators like Fidel Castro.

By the way, two article for those who buy into socialist propaganda about Cuba: http://www.city-journal.org/html/last-communist-city-13649.html

http://www.therealcuba.com/?page_id=77

[Mama Mia]

@Sundaymorning. Have you looked at any of the actual polls? Sander's beats Trump in a general election. Particularly in swing states. By double digits in most of them. Clinton does not. This comes from all of the major polling companies.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not only are most voters independents, but Independents lean more left than right. Which gives Sanders an advantage.

And , please, his essay from 40+ years ago that described the results of sex stereotyping and tied it to rape fantasies ( also, please see feminist literature of era and educate yourself - or even collections of fantasies held by real women , as collected by Nancy Friday during that time frame ). -- And compare that to Trump's constant and on-going objectionable statements about women, Muslim's, " the blacks" , Mexicans and on and on and on. Seriously ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

[19 cats and counting]

OP here with an update.  But first a little background about me.  My first presidential election, I didn't follow politics at all.  In fact I was the only one of my friends who voted.  That election came down to about 500 votes in one state and wasn't decided until over a month later.

My vote in November didn't matter (and it won't this November) since my state then and now is a given.  

In 2004, I 'woke up' politically and was (in name) a card carrying Democrat (but didn't change my registration until I moved in 2007).  Since then I've literally given up my life for Democratic candidates and issues and have uprooted myself to 6 different states.  But I'm much more of a downticket girl than presidential one.  I believe more is done at the lower levels of government and would rather work at that level.   Bernie Sanders stopped by one of our campaign offices when he dropped off his son going to college in the same town.  I've met the guy adn he could not be nicer.

That said, Democrats are impossible to unite (I think it is easier to get 500 cats to march in a military style uniform march) especially when it comes to downticket.  So many Democrats vote at the top and then leave the rest of the ballot blank.  Or they act whiny and stay home if they don't get their pony (this is what campaign staff deal with).  With Bernie's recent antics, I fear that he's now trying to divide the party and put the orange Cheeto in office.   So I played my woman card and voted for Hillary.  

If at this point a miracle happens and Bernie pulls it off, he will also get my support in November.  My Hillary vote was 51/49.  In fact I'd vote for D- Ham Sandwich over Donald Trump.

[Sundaymorning]

@Mama Mia It doesn't matter what Sanders meant by that essay, but what the Republican propaganda machine can do with it. This essay is pure gold for any spin master. Just take a few sentences out of it, and you have a great negative ad.

Also, I'm not so sure about polls, they can change pretty quickly, especially if the Republicans start to attack him for real. And let's not forget that in the primary, Clinton has more than 3 million popular votes more than him. Yes, some primaries were closed ones, but if many independents like him so much, why didn't they make the effort to change party registrations for a short time?

And those polls Sanders vs Trump didn't count Clinton in, did they? Because that's what I think would happen: Sanders and Clinton splitting the votes, and Trump winning the election.

[Maggie Mae]

31 minutes ago, Sundaymorning said:

@Mama Mia I'm not an expert on that, so maybe someone who has better insight in the states voters demographic could help out. But I'd guess that an independent Sanders run would mean that he might win a few blue states from Clinton, Trump would get the red ones, and Trump would have better chances in the swing states. So, in the end, Trump would get elected, while I really don't think that Sanders would have any chances in a GE. 

I'm uncertain about the effect that an Independent Sanders would have on the election. He's already been mostly excluded from the non-stop media coverage. 

He would be excluded from the debates as the Commission on Presidential Debates has a rule that requires an independant candidate to exceed 15 percent across five national polls two weeks before the Presidential debates.Because of the timing, it means that no third-party candidate has ever been able to debate. 

The CoPD (ugh, bad acronym) is a private organization that was established by the Democratic and Republican parties in, i believe, 1987. The League of Women Voters had withdrew its support for the presidential debates after Bush Senior and Michael Dukakis had agreed (not very secretly) that they would decide who was allowed to participate, who would be asking questions, and some other minor stuff like podium size. I think that was a year later. 

But, I'm not sure how important the debates are actually going to be in the future. With the rise of social media and the always-connected world we live in, it seems like the debates might not be as important as they used to be. 

EDIT: Looking at fivethirtyeight and the results of the democratic primary, I see a lot of very close races. I can't fault Sanders for staying in it until the convention. If he were to raise a bunch of cash and stay in as an independant, he could maybe win a couple of states but it's unlikely without the support of the democratic party. 

 

 

[Witherwings]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

@Witherwings are you not worried about how Trump seems to be willing to put people in positions of power who actually believe all those awful things he says? I am getting ready to have a teen daughter and it terrifies me how the republican party keeps working at stripping away women's rights. I also know Muslims who are terrified of what Trump would do because of the complete disdain he has shown towards Muslims. He has said that Islam hates America, like America isn't also made up of Islamic people. As a group that is already dealing with a lot of hate and violence towards them, he seems to be stirring up more hatred, and history shows us what happens when people start hating an entire group of people based on their religion. 

I'm looking at who I think would do the least amount of long term damage, and I don't see how it wouldn't be Trump. He just reeks hatred towards people who are already marginalized. 

Going by this, it seems like you are suggesting either no groups have anything to fear from Clinton or that certain groups fears are more worthy of concern than others. 

Her past (including her past as First Lady and prior) are shady. Her and Bill stood by and watched Rwanda happen (of course her and Bill now claim she urged him to intervene) The super predators comment, her thoughtless comments about coal miners job, and so on. 

I won't vote for Hillary. It won't happen. She has already managed to do damage. There are things she has done that I consider unforgivable. 

[formergothardite]

17 minutes ago, Witherwings said:

Going by this, it seems like you are suggesting either no groups have anything to fear from Clinton or that certain groups fears are more worthy of concern than others. 

Her past (including her past as First Lady and prior) are shady. Her and Bill stood by and watched Rwanda happen (of course her and Bill now claim she urged him to intervene) The super predators comment, her thoughtless comments about coal miners job, and so on. 

I won't vote for Hillary. It won't happen. She has already managed to do damage. There are things she has done that I consider unforgivable.

This didn't actually answer my question. Instead of deflecting to point out bad things about Hillary*, can you address how Trump seems willing to spread outright hatred and put people into power who believe the horrible things he says and strip rights away from minorities? I would like you to address the horrors of Trump and why people shouldn't be fucking terrified of him. 

*Not a Hillary fan at all. 

ETA: About the coal miner comment. If you read the whole thing in context it isn't that horrible. Especially if people are going to compare it to some of the awful thing Trump has said. 

Quote

 

So for example, I'm the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into coal country. Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right?

And we're going to make it clear that we don't want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories.

Now we've got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don't want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on.