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I didn't understand that the Target rule would allow a hetero man to go into the ladies room...they won't though. I thought they said that people could use the bathroom of their gender identity. I really wasn't paying close attention.

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The actual rule was written really vaguely. There are several videos posted online of people testing it out though - of men who are very obviously straight who go to management and ask if they are allowed to use the ladies room because they're more comfortable there, and management says "yes, absolutely" with no further discussion... and off they go. I think the idea behind the rule was on point (I don't remember the wording but when I read it, it seemed like it was intended more for staff than anything else), but its so vague that it opens the door for bad things to potentially happen. The likelihood of something like that ACTUALLY happening is extremely minimal its practically nonexistent, I know

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5 hours ago, notsofundie said:

I think the bathroom topic is interesting, especially in light of Target's newish rules that allow anyone to use any bathroom. Honestly, I have two little kids and the Target rules scare me because any man can just walk into the ladies room and watch/wait.

They already could, though. That type of sexual assault has been happening as long as there have been public restrooms, unfortunately.

Sexual assault is still a crime. A person walking into the restroom of their choice and seizing an opportunity to commit that crime has never been that difficult.

It's deterred a lot more by the presence of potential witnesses and/or responsive security personnel than by assuming someone who is willing to commit a violent crime is unwilling to ignore a sign on a door.

Edited by Mercer
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I know. That's why I said I realize the chances of anything different happening are miniscule to non-existent, its just the idea of somewhat enabling people to actually go in there. I cant imagine a criminal actually using that thought process but still... I think what mostly bothered me is I saw one video a guy took with a hidden camera... he showed himself and he looked like a stereotypical creeper... overweight, mullet, mustache, horrible teeth, really old clothing and looked like he hadn't taken a bath in a month. He walked into the store and went straight to customer service and said something like [this isn't a direct quote, I'm paraphrasing] "I was driving by and I have to use the restroom. I feel more comfortable in the ladies room, can  I go I there and what do I do if anyone says anything about it?". Management said "yes go ahead, and take your time. If anyone has a problem they can talk to us".  He went in there, peed (with the camera running, not showing anything but you certainly heard it), video taped the whole bathroom while talking (there was no one else in there at the time), showing no urinals to prove he was in the ladies room, and then was like "thanks for letting me p!ss in a clean bathroom, Target" and laughed like a creep and left. Just the fact that someone did that and it was perfectly "ok" (except that I'm sure there's a law or rule somewhere that says you cant have hidden cameras in bathrooms... please let that law actually exist?) for him to do so. I don't know. It creeped me out. I know in my head that in practice, theres almost zero chance of it increasing the odds of anything bad, but realizing that the guy could go in there without being questioned even just walking in or whatever, I guess that makes me uncomfortable. Honestly probably partially because I realized how freaking EASY it would be for anyone to get a camera in there (not just there, anywhere)  and hide it... Eww! Theres SOMETHING that just seems a little over the top about their policy even though I think its great that it allows trans people to go into the bathroom they feel they belong in - but I always assumed they just did that anyway without making a big deal about it. The whole thing truly makes me wonder what my kids trans friend does in public. Hes 8. I don't know what I would do if my daughter was transsexual - I have absolutely no idea which bathroom I would send her to.

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On 4/29/2016 at 5:49 AM, Sundaymorning said:

I don't think that they are scared that trans people will commit any crimes. I've actually talked about this topic with several people, and those who are against trans people using women's facilities aren't afraid of trans people themselves, but of sexual predators who just act like they were trans people in order to get access to bathrooms or changing rooms. Even though such events are unlikely to happen, I think we should take these genuine concerns seriously.

I mean, bathrooms aren't an issue, as, hopefully!, no one sees anyones privates. But changing rooms are a different matter and the solution is simply to give those who feel uncomfortable undressing in front of other people, small private cabins to change in.

I don't. It's a complete straw man of an argument - this sort  assuming the guise of another gender in order to assault others in public bathrooms doesn't really happen so often. Statistics would reinforce this negligibly. They're using this a smokescreen for their bigotry, and ought to be called out on it.

21 hours ago, Mercer said:

They already could, though. That type of sexual assault has been happening as long as there have been public restrooms, unfortunately.

Sexual assault is still a crime. A person walking into the restroom of their choice and seizing an opportunity to commit that crime has never been that difficult.

It's deterred a lot more by the presence of potential witnesses and/or responsive security personnel than by assuming someone who is willing to commit a violent crime is unwilling to ignore a sign on a door.

Exactly. 

Edited by seraaa
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Sexual assault, voyeurism, and stalking are all against the law. A man in Seattle who claimed to be transgender while peeping at women in a locker room was prosecuted because claiming to be transgender is not a 'get out of the bathroom free' card.

Putting a sign on a door has never kept any criminal out of a public restroom.  People who assault others are criminals, but a sign will not keep them out of a room if they want to enter and think they can get away with it.

No women or children have been harmed in a public bathroom by a person who is transgender. If there were any such incident in the future, the perpetrator would be prosecutable under laws which already exist.

People should supervise their children in public restrooms regardless of their gender identity. 

People who are transgender face a 40% increased risk of depression and suicide. Children and adolescents who are transgender and are supported in their gender identity, however, are at the same risk for depression and suicide as their cisgender agemates. Therefore, school accommodations for transgender students are, besides being legally required, necessary to prevent needless harm to their mental and physical health.

The law in North Carolina has made it more difficult ("illegal", though surely not Constitutional) for people who are transgender to use public facilities, easier for them to be discriminated against in businesses, schools, and government offices, and easier for cis men who want to enter women's facilities to do so without challenge. 

This nationwide discussion was not the result some big wave of transgender people marching for rights. It was a call for justice after the rash and rushed (and unConstitutional) decision that Republicans in North Carolina made their to thwart the rights of the 700,000+ adults and innumerable (seemingly large, based on my local area!) children and adolescents who are transgender in the US.

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What about little boys who might be sexually assaulted by a grown man in the men's restroom?

Edited by OnceUponATime
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25 minutes ago, sillybeebo said:

What about little boys who might be sexually assaulted by a grown man in the men's restroom?

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I was molested by my father.  I was the only girl.  He also molested all 3 of my brothers.  It is amazing to me the blind eye that is turned to same sex molesting that is done by males to boys.   I remember when I was in therapy for this and I said to my therapist how glad I was that I was the only girl and because of that no one else was hurt.  She looked at me and said she was certain the boys were molested too.  It took me a few years to find out she was correct.  

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I think the only thing pedophiles care about is if the person is a child. The gender of the child or children makes no difference. The right wing nuts still treat women like we are idiots, they treat us like we're second class citizens, and they treat us like property instead of like equals. They also don't understand that men or boys have also been sexually assaulted. Male chauvinism has helped many not report that they're victims of sexual assault.

Edited by OnceUponATime
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  • 3 weeks later...

Courtney Enlow wife of Producer Scott Enlow of 19 Kids and Counting and Counting On is pretty vocal on her twitter page about different subjects happening in the news. She has quite a mouth on her in some of her posts . It looks like she supports the LGBT Community but then a piece she wrote a couple weeks ago spouted out about a White Society and how she remarked she is for it. I am surprised Jim Bob and Michelle haven't seen her messages on her LGBT support especially in light of the new murders down in Orlando and fired her and her husband. Enlow makes some thought provoking statements. She tends to lean to the very liberal side with a dash of Duggar Conservatism thrown in for good measure. She has been hanging around the Duggars too much. TLC must pay her and Scott some damn good money to put up with the Duggars shit.

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On 5/17/2016 at 4:11 PM, notsofundie said:

I think the bathroom topic is interesting, especially in light of Target's newish rules that allow anyone to use any bathroom. Honestly, I have two little kids and the Target rules scare me because any man can just walk into the ladies room and watch/wait. I'm not scared of actual trans people doing anything. I have a 7yr old girl and 9yr old boy and let them both know that if they are with the opposite sex parent and go into their assigned bathroom alone, to turn around and leave if they see anything that makes them uncomfortable, including an obvious creepy man in the ladies room and vice versa for my son. Its a tough topic though, one of their best friends is a trans kid. They were both utterly appalled about Target and both asked WHY they would allow such a thing. I explained to them it was in order for people like their friend to be able to go into the bathroom that is comfortable for them, and that that's a GOOD thing, and the only bad thing is that it allows people with horrible intentions to gain access.

I'm not sure what my point is here other than to say that its a tough situation. In theory I am all for intersex bathrooms, in practice I think its more difficult... when it comes to thinking about saying "sure go ahead, walk right in" to an obviously not LGBT individual who is just being a creeper into the same bathroom as my kid... At the end of the day, I think things like "family bathrooms" or separate bathrooms that are labeled as such and are intersex are a good thing but I do think that completely opening it up like Target did is maybe taking it a step to far? I don't know

 

I don't want to be rude, because I don't think you intended it this way, but this is kind of prejudicial. There is no "look" to an LGBT individual. No one of us is the arbiter of whether a person "looks" trans enough to use their preferred bathroom. Trans isn't just transitioning to the "opposite gender", some people do not feel gender dysphoria and therefore don't change their appearance despite identifying as something other than what they were assigned at birth. Some people identify outside the male/female binary. All of these things are okay, and some may not come an appearance which is congruous with what you might expect. 

As far as someone who is being a "creeper" (I'm quoting because it is your word, not in a mocking or mean way, it's a great word for what predators do) those people are not going to be any more or less incentivized to enter the bathroom because of this policy. If someone is preying on small children in restrooms, they were already doing it. It's good that you talk about awareness and safety with your children. But that isn't information they need more simply because Target explicitly respects gender identity. Until recently, no one talked about what restrooms trans people were using, and no one stopped trans people from using the bathroom of their choosing. All Target has done is make explicit something that has been happening for quite a while. Your children don't need to be aware of their surroundings and their instincts because Target lets trans people into the bathrooms, your children need to be aware of their surroundings and their instincts because sometimes bad people may try to harm them in a variety of locations. It is, I think, quite separate from Target and bathrooms.

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I have ways been aware, as a female, of being alone in a public bathroom that could be isolated physically......maybe a park or something. Or a large mall with those restrooms at the end of a hall which are not in a store, but off the main halls. Basically, anywhere that feels vulnerable....if you are the only person there. I have always felt like this and recently thought "Oh, shit, I'm all alone back here and I don't hear anyone around". I do not have daughters, but I would definitely talk about this. I have sons. They would all step in should any female be assaulted. Just like the parking garage issue I have posted about earlier. This is fear of heterosexual predators and criminals. 

I think Target is being inclusive and there are always Arseholes who take advantage of anything. TheWayOfTheWorld, sadly. 

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