The Duggars/Seewalds and Trans Bathrooms

[newyorkgirl52 400]

Any interesting debate started on Guinn's public page today regarding her stance on trans bathrooms (the argument made it over to Pickles, and you can see it here). https://www.facebook.com/Duggar-Family-News-Life-is-not-all-pickles-and-hairspray-269181913180625/?fref=ts

But, the liberal Duggar friend, Krista, responded this way, which I found interesting: 

I'd like to point out that I don't believe individuals fear trans people using a bathroom, they fear sexual violence. And, in order to move forward, we really need to identify this fear. Also, would you want someone who looks like Cait Jenner in a men's room? If we're truly afraid of individuals being sexually hurt, Cait is at a much larger risk than ANY OTHER POPULATION for being assaulted if she was to use a men's restroom.

Also, what bathroom are individuals who are intersex (born biologically both male and female) to do?

I understand your fears, friends. I understand how scary it is that America is moving away from traditional values. I understand how frustrating and scary and confusing it is to wonder, "What would Jesus want? What does Jesus do?" In all of this, whether you support trans bathrooms or not, we ALL MUST ASK OURSELVES, "Is what I'm about to say/write going to push readers closer to desiring God? Seeking redemption and draw me close to my creator? Is it kind YET truthful and defending righteousness?" If you had to question yourself, don't post it.

 

I know Michelle made the news for doing a campaign to keep trans out of women's bathrooms. And then we all know Josh came out as a child molestor, and the Seewalds scolded him, so I'm just surprised the Seewalds commented on this. 

 

Thoughts? 

[Shiny 2,483]

I don't think she's correct about the fear being from sexual abuse. These people are spending time, money, and a huge effort to prevent trans people from entering the correct bathroom. this comes from fear, yes, but not fear of sexual assault. It comes from fear of trans people. If any of this was about sexual assault, they would be putting a similar effort into preventing it. But they don't...and they didn't even before the trans bathroom laws were in the news. 

 

 

[Cleopatra7 21,273]

I'm highly suspicious of people who suddenly become concerned with sexual assault/abuse/rape when some "other" is involved (especially when phrased in terms of "do you want 'your women' to be around 'those people'?") in a hypothetical situation, but when confronted with more quotidian forms of sexual violence like date rape, incest, or abuse involving "respectable men" default to victim blaming and denying that a problem exists.

[EyeQueue 5,459]

They're also spreading misinformation in that they're making out like there's a huge epidemic of rapes/molestations taking place by strangers lurking or busting into bathrooms.

You're much more likely to be molested/raped by someone you know. The Stranger Danger thing is a scare tactic. I realize a small number might take place by strangers in public bathrooms, but they're making this out to be bigger than it is--and this was not on their radar before the transgender thing got on people's radars.

[2manyKidzzz 8,181]

I read one article in which a sheriff in NC  said his officers would not be "enforcing" this law, i.e., inspecting people. He also said that it had never been a problem. A sheriff said this.

In another article a lawmaker, or  offiicial or somebody, just said, it had never been a problem.

It has never really been a problem. Not a problem.

[Carol 25,827]

1 hour ago, Shiny said:

I don't think she's correct about the fear being from sexual abuse. These people are spending time, money, and a huge effort to prevent trans people from entering the correct bathroom. this comes from fear, yes, but not fear of sexual assault. It comes from fear of trans people. If any of this was about sexual assault, they would be putting a similar effort into preventing it. But they don't...and they didn't even before the trans bathroom laws were in the news. 

 

 

Hell, it's about sex.  Having sex, changing sex, no sex, always available for sex, heh, heh, heh...it's all about SEX with these people.

[candygirl200413 12,456]

I think it just exhausts me that the argument is that people don't want "certain" people to pee. TO PEE!! I don't know if it's because I come from one of the most liberal districts in America but in my high school we had a MTF who would use the girls bathroom all the time and didn't come off as "passing" until her senior year. No one threw a fit and we all lived.

I also agree that the fear is not from abuse, because there has been exactly 0 attacks from any transgender person. Everyone who uses this as proof I have yet to see any "source" cause oh yeah it doesn't exist!!

Times like this I'm like society why do you kill me?!

 

*rant over*

[Jucifer 4,519]

3 hours ago, Shiny said:

I don't think she's correct about the fear being from sexual abuse. These people are spending time, money, and a huge effort to prevent trans people from entering the correct bathroom. this comes from fear, yes, but not fear of sexual assault. It comes from fear of trans people. If any of this was about sexual assault, they would be putting a similar effort into preventing it. But they don't...and they didn't even before the trans bathroom laws were in the news. 

 

 

I wonder if any of these people have actually met a trans person. I doubt it  : /

it seems to me like they are making trans people into the boogeymen of the hour because they haven't got anyone else left to discriminate against. 

They're grasping at straws. : /

What happens when they're all out of enemies?  

Edited April 29, 2016 by Jucifer

[Sundaymorning 1,778]

I don't think that they are scared that trans people will commit any crimes. I've actually talked about this topic with several people, and those who are against trans people using women's facilities aren't afraid of trans people themselves, but of sexual predators who just act like they were trans people in order to get access to bathrooms or changing rooms. Even though such events are unlikely to happen, I think we should take these genuine concerns seriously.

I mean, bathrooms aren't an issue, as, hopefully!, no one sees anyones privates. But changing rooms are a different matter and the solution is simply to give those who feel uncomfortable undressing in front of other people, small private cabins to change in.

[Mercer 11,614]

I will believe that Jim Bob and Michelle are genuinely concerned about sexual abuse the day they show genuine concern that their own daughters were sexually abused in their home.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Mercer

[Sundaymorning 1,778]

2 minutes ago, Mercer said:

I will believe that Jim Bob and Michelle are genuinely concerned about sexual abuse the day they show genuine concern that their own daughters were sexually abused in their home.

No, the Duggars (and other fundies and nutjob politicians) cleary aren't. But many people genuinely are. And their concerns shouldn't be just dismissed, that will only help those who want to harm LBGT people and now pretend that they care about women's safety. Calmly and kindly explaining things to them, and making sure that no one has to undress in front of anybody if they aren't feeling comfortable doing that, is much better. And it takes the wind out of people's sails who just want to stir up hate against trans people.

[kjmackin 269]

I feel that those who are against these societal changes do not have full and caring understanding about what transgenders face. Isn't the point of being Christian is to love thy neighbor no matter what? Instead they believe stories they hear that only occur in 1/500,000 saying that it going to become daily occurrences. 

Some time last year my husband was asked about the bathroom situation because several of the workers in his plant commute from places like Tonitown. His response was why should he care if a person has to go then it shouldn't matter who care if they have dick vs a vajvaj. They counter with that spill "think of women & kids." 

 

My personal stance is why should we police crap like this? Why not make all bathrooms unisex it would get rid of that awkwardness of seeing people naked. If there a need to separate people then why not do it by age this unisex bathroom  is for those who haven't hit puberty and this is for those who did. Hell my father was one of those freaks that would freak out if I moved to the next aile before him & made me use the men's bathroom at a trucker stop with well pass the age that it was necessary. 

[Chickenbutt 13,145]

I wonder how many times a Duggar, or anyone who has their beliefs, has been in a public bathroom with a transgender person and never even knew it.

[19 cats and counting 5,688]

Here's a novel solution.

Women's bathrooms have stalls where you pee behind a closed door.  Go into the stall, do your business, wash your hands, leave.  Nobody sees your privates.

As for locker rooms--- just do what my gym does and have a few private changing areas.  

As for the Duggars.  They lost all their rights to comment on sexual violence when they covered up their own son being a sexual predator.  I fear him in a women's bathroom before Caitlyn Jenner.

[Alicja 1,752]

1. A stick figure with a dress on it won't stop sexual predators no matter their gender.

2. How are you going to check someone's gender/bio sex? Genital check? Blood test? Start carding people? That's an invasion of personal liberty by the government, don't conservatives like small government? Or are you against the government only when it inconveniences you? Lying is a sin.

3. If you really are concerned about survivors of sexual violence, how about you start advocating for harsher sentences for rapists and other abusers.

[Drala 5,454]

OK, I think I finally understand a semi-rational argument about transfolk and bathroom sexual assault, and I owe it all to this thread.  I think the reasoning goes like this:  If M2F "males" are allowed to use the women's bathroom, then predatory hetero males will feel imboldened to use the women's bathroom, too. "Dogs and cats, living together!  Mass hysteria!"  It's the slippery slope argument, because the notion that M2F transfolk pose a threat to het women is ludicrous, even if the M2F individiual has a preference for women as sexual partners.  The fear that transfolk themselves pose a predatory threat stems from pure ignorance, which I'm willing to concede in the case for Michelle Duggar, but surely can't explain the entire North Carolina legislative bandwangon.

[2manyKidzzz 8,181]

My cousin, who did undercover narcotics for 20 years, told his mom, my aunt, and me never to go into parking garages alone, even in the daytime. And he mentioned a certain large mall we should never go to at all. 

Never mentioned transgendered people in bathrooms because it had never happened. 

I had already figured out the parking garage  thing before he said that. 

[newyorkgirl52 400]

14 hours ago, newyorkgirl52 said:

Any interesting debate started on Guinn's public page today regarding her stance on trans bathrooms (the argument made it over to Pickles, and you can see it here). https://www.facebook.com/Duggar-Family-News-Life-is-not-all-pickles-and-hairspray-269181913180625/?fref=ts

But, the liberal Duggar friend, Krista, responded this way, which I found interesting: 

I'd like to point out that I don't believe individuals fear trans people using a bathroom, they fear sexual violence. And, in order to move forward, we really need to identify this fear. Also, would you want someone who looks like Cait Jenner in a men's room? If we're truly afraid of individuals being sexually hurt, Cait is at a much larger risk than ANY OTHER POPULATION for being assaulted if she was to use a men's restroom.

Also, what bathroom are individuals who are intersex (born biologically both male and female) to do?

I understand your fears, friends. I understand how scary it is that America is moving away from traditional values. I understand how frustrating and scary and confusing it is to wonder, "What would Jesus want? What does Jesus do?" In all of this, whether you support trans bathrooms or not, we ALL MUST ASK OURSELVES, "Is what I'm about to say/write going to push readers closer to desiring God? Seeking redemption and draw me close to my creator? Is it kind YET truthful and defending righteousness?" If you had to question yourself, don't post it.

 

I know Michelle made the news for doing a campaign to keep trans out of women's bathrooms. And then we all know Josh came out as a child molestor, and the Seewalds scolded him, so I'm just surprised the Seewalds commented on this. 

 

Thoughts? 

WOW GUYS! Krista just really let the fundies have it. She's either going to be excommunicated (The duggars due that right) or maybe speak some sense into those fundies. She just posted this on her IG and FB. Way to go, Krista

 

this law (no trans in bathrooms) DOES NOT KEEP PEOPLE FROM BEING SEXUALLY VIOLATED! And it bothers me that preventing sexual violence is being cited as the sole reason for this law by conservatives, who simply don't want trans in their bathroom. But women have being using the same bathroom as trans FOR DECADES and I have yet to read of a trans person become trans JUST TO molest someone. Over 90% of sexual violence occurs from someone a child KNOWS AND TRUSTS. So if this was really about that 1) conservatives should support appropriate touching education in schools and mandatory reporting laws and 2) trans women are the MOST AT RISK population for bathroom assault so why would we want to force them into those situations...so again, we have been PEEING WITH TRANS For DECADES and this will not stop the limited accounts of sexual violence in bathrooms. Ive yet to hear of dozens of cases of a man pretending to be a woman and going into a woman's bathroom (also, child molesters molest boys too, so they could molest people in their own bathroom) but my office sees THOUSANDS of kids each year molested, raped, and exploited by their dads, uncles, cousins, siblings, moms, aunts, and babysitters. So if people don't want to go to the bathroom with a trans person to protest their sex change, own that. Don't use sexual violence, though, as justification for this.

This is NOT me saying I think changing your gender is biblical or that I agree with it per se. But I am SICK AND TIRED of people seeming to only care about sexual violence when it benefits them to promote a moral obligation, and will not protect individuals, but promote their own political agenda. I work with women and children BRUTALLY raped and abused. This law is NOT about protecting them. It is based on fear perpetuated by the media. Again, 90% of all cases of sexual violence are from someone who the child knows and trusts. We must project every child, so why aren't we doing things that promote safety for the majority?

[Mercer 11,614]

I said this in the other thread, but one of my friends was raped in a public restroom. The (male) perpetrator saw an opportunity because no one else was nearby and just walked in after her. There was no attempt made to disguise himself as female or pretend to be trans. Anyone can already enter a women's restroom; it's not like they have some kind of gender-specific force field.

In a situation where there were other people around, I assume most people would not allow a sexual assault to take place without intervening just because a perpetrator was wearing female clothes and the restroom was designated for women. 

The safety threat in public restrooms is not the presence of trans individuals.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Mercer

[MargaretElliott 8,442]

I honestly don't get what these people are afraid of. If someone is going to assault/harass someone, it's still assault/harassment whether they're a man in a woman's bathroom, a woman in a man's bathroom, or a trans man/woman in either. If you're in the "correct" bathroom, that doesn't mean you can peep over stalls and get away with it. Sexual predators aren't going to say, "Oh, I'm going to commit this harmful act against another human being- WAIT, that sign says I can't go in there, better not. That would be going too far."

Also, I have a trans friend who's doing hormone therapy and grew a beard (because for the first time in his life, he could. It looks fabulous). You know if Michelle walked into a woman's bathroom and saw this muscled, bearded, tattooed man in there, she'd freak out, call him a pervert, be worried for the safety of her daughters- little does she know, she's supporting the laws to put him in that bathroom.

These people don't have a freakin' clue.

[AnywhereButHere 14,329]

[nomoxian 5,217]

17 hours ago, Jucifer said:

I wonder if any of these people have actually met a trans person. I doubt it  : /

it seems to me like they are making trans people into the boogeymen of the hour because they haven't got anyone else left to discriminate against. 

They're grasping at straws. : /

What happens when they're all out of enemies?  

Quite a few of them probably have met someone who is trans and just didn't realize it.

I don't just mean someone who is trans who "passes", but there's quite a few people who are trans but who look like and live as their birth sex (at least in meatspace, or outside of a few select occasions where they go to an event) because going through social and medical transition would be too difficult or risky.

[Gossamer1 2,339]

On 4/29/2016 at 0:42 AM, Jucifer said:

What happens when they're all out of enemies?  

With a little luck they will all start turning on each other and leave the rest of us alone!

[OodOnTheLoo 670]

This is about instilling fear to get some, any control over LGBT community.  Once you can pass a law to "protect children" from trans people in bathrooms then you can start protecting children from trans people in schools, medical offices, grocery stores.  Employers can stop hiring them because they just want to keep kids safe.  

Hoping this legislation debate gets people curious enough to look into what a transsexual really is and like Kristen they see LGBT are being scapegoated.  That people start to look at how children really do get preyed upon (ahem, church) and step up to actually do something.

[Bushes of Love 1,449]

When I read about the whole bathroom/trans thing I want to let all the bigots know that in Europe unisex toilets are not uncommon. In London I know there are unisex toilets in Victoria coach station and Slimelight nightclub. I've never felt unsafe in either of them, the only uncomfortable feeling I get from them is that they are both really messy and disgusting!