Question for the Group: What makes someone fundie or evangelical?

[Avalondaughter]

I have been on FJ for a few years now (although posting much less than I did when I first joined) and have spent a lot of time reading secular/rational/atheist blogs and listening to podcasts and watching videos.  There seems to be quite a divide among Christians.  So many Christians are saying, "I'm 'mainline" and I am not one of those Christian crazies."  I hear the word "evangelical" quite a bit alongside fundamentalist.  There seems to be some kind of ideological divide and belonging to one church or another automatically puts you on a side.  I just don't understand these divides and what makes someone a Christian vs. a CHRISTIAN. 

I'm not sure if I'm making sense, so I'll give background on my own experience to spell it out.

I was raised Catholic and thus spent my formative years learning the Catholic rules of salvation.  You went to church every week.  You received communion.  If you sinned (including missing church) you were out of grace and you had to confess to be placed back into a state of grace and receive your salvation through communion.  I was a fearful child who worried about hell and Satan and I was never sure if I was doing Catholicism right (I never went to confession after missing church for example).  When I was 10 my Presbyterian (I'm told this is considered a "mainline" denomination) invited me to join her in the Sunday School class.  I really enjoyed the intimacy and family atmosphere of this church - less cold and formal and distant than the Catholic.  They told me if I didn't want to go to hell, i needed to be saved.  I needed to "ask Jesus into my heart".  The language wasn't all that different from what I hear from the fundies we snark on here on FJ.

Throughout the years I spent attending this church and going to Bible camp, everyone delivered the same message.  You needed Jesus in your heart to be saved.  Jesus had the be the driving force in your life.  You should do your best to help save others as well.  The politics were conservative.  They were all dedicated anti-choicers, although now and then I would run across someone who would concede to rape/incent exceptions (one speaker at summer camp said he hated the idea of the baby being punished for rape, but could empathize too much with the mother not wanting to give birth to a rapist's baby).  They were not anti-birth control for married couples, but believed that no couple should avoid having children altogether.  They looked at me patrionizingly when I said we should vote for candidate willing to reduce nuclear armaments and work harder for peace in the world. They couldn't quite fault me for my beliefs that ran in line with the peaceful message of Jesus, but they knew right-wing politicians were still best for the country even if it was only because of abortion.  They were not into YEC. When asked about the creation of the world in 7 days, they would say things like, "God's time is not our time," and concede somewhat to scientific evidence.

I grew up believing that all non-Catholic Christianity was based on salvation and asking Jesus in your heart.  I didn't know that this was some kind of special belief that isn't present in most churches.  But why was it present in this group of supposedly mainline churches?  Let me point out I am not living in some Bible Belt backwoods.  I live in the in a wealthy NYC suburb.  The camp director of my Bible camp was pastor at a church in Manhattan.  Can a mainline church still be evangelical?  Is there something beyond the idea of being "saved" that divdes a mainline church from an evangelical one?  What is the line between evangelical and fundamentalist?  Does it mostly have to do with whether or not you believe in evolution vs. creationism?

Another example is a friend of mine who was saved about 20 years ago.  She is hardcore in her beliefs and politically aligned in most ways with the religious right.  She believes strongly in creationism and tells her children that while they have to answer the test questions in school the way the school demands, they must understand that school is wrong.  Her church is Lutheran ("mainline", no?)  She frequently gives her testimony to the congregation as a shining example of what a positive influence her salvation has been on her life. 

On the other hand I have another friend who after years of detached near-agnostocism  (with a belief that Jesus had a good example) became a Christian and is still a liberal and is also a Lutheran.  She did get baptized though.  She doesn't talk about her beliefs with me though because she knows my beliefs once similar to hers have become outright atheism and she correctly assumes I won't take her beliefs too seriously.  She's obviously not as fundie/evangelical as my other Lutheran friends, but does she consider herself saved?

What makes someone a Christian and what defines a type of Christian?  For those of you on this board who identify as Christian, what do you believe, what church do you belong to, and what do you feel is the ultimate purpose/end for your beliefs?  (Are you concerned with the afterlife?  Do you feel your Christianity makes you a better person? etc.) 

[Eternalbluepearl]

I don't believe in Jesus as a god, only as the re-telling of a hero myth. To me, he may or may not have even been a real person but was just a man if he existed. However, the love of generations before me lives in my heart and reminds me to be good to all. I believe there is some sort of god, but that we as humans could not conceive of understanding god's ways. 

[jas]

The way I understand it, fundamentalism is not defined by a denomination at all, and is present in most, if not all, religions. There are fundie catholics, presbyterians, muslims etc. I would see it as being characterised by very rigid, literal, legalistic beliefs. Controlling authority figures go hand in hand with this, as the more extreme and at odds with the world the beliefs are, the harder it is to believe them. Fear and guilt are used more to keep people believing the right things.

Evangelicals are more straight forward, to me it just means someone who believes that they must convert others to their religion. This can overlap with fundamentalism and is also present in many religions.

I am no expert in the area, but that is my understanding of the terms. I don't know if there is a clearly defined line that, once crossed, makes someone a fundamentalist. I'd say it is more of a grey area.

[Ungodly Grandma]

37 minutes ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

I don't believe in Jesus as a god, only as the re-telling of a hero myth. To me, he may or may not have even been a real person but was just a man if he existed. However, the love of generations before me lives in my heart and reminds me to be good to all. I believe there is some sort of god, but that we as humans could not conceive of understanding god's ways. 

Your last sentence is what baffles me about the extremely religious. If God is well, God, awe inspiring, above us, etc., then how can humans claim to understand what God thinks?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

4 minutes ago, Ungodly Grandma said:

Your last sentence is what baffles me about the extremely religious. If God is well, God, awe inspiring, above us, etc., then how can humans claim to understand what God thinks?

It baffles you because you are using logic. Extreme beliefs don't go well with logic, nor with curiosity or questioning or criticism of any kind.

[Palimpsest]

 

1 hour ago, Avalondaughter said:

Can a mainline church still be evangelical?  Is there something beyond the idea of being "saved" that divdes a mainline church from an evangelical one?  What is the line between evangelical and fundamentalist?  Does it mostly have to do with whether or not you believe in evolution vs. creationism?

A huge and complicated topic.  Coles notes version:

All Christianity is basically evangelical (spreading the Gospel) but not all Christians are Evangelical (take it as a prime directive.)  Protestants tend to be more Evangelical than Catholics, but not always.  See "the Great Awakening" parts 1 and 2.  Most mainline churches (Episcopalian, Methodist, Lutheran, etc.) would happily call themselves Evangelical.  They do have oversight from a centralized denomination, however.

There is fundamentalism (as  @jas describes) and the Protestant Christian Fundamentalism (based on the Fundamentals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fundamentals), which became popular in the UK and US in the early 20th century particularly in Baptist and Presbyterian circles.  But not all branches of the Baptist and Presbyterian churches are particularly Fundamentalist.

 Biblical inerrancy, rejecting modern ideas, and being extremely right wing are a huge deal for the Christian Fundamentalists.  Those are the people we talk about on FJ mostly.  The Independent Fundamentalist Baptists (IFB) come up a lot.  IFB translates as - anyone can start their own church and preach the "right kind" of Christianity with no theological training or outside oversight at all.

[BullyJBG]

30 minutes ago, Ungodly Grandma said:

Your last sentence is what baffles me about the extremely religious. If God is well, God, awe inspiring, above us, etc., then how can humans claim to understand what God thinks?

 That about sums it up. I grew up in a Mennonite church and currently am a member of a Baptist church. Not much different; maybe a few minor theological differences. Basically I only notice on Remembrance Day(same day as Veteran's Day in the US; I'm Canadian). We read the same Bible, and struggle with things we discuss here. Evangelical, yes, it means we live to glorify God and share Him with others. We keep on learning how to do that, and to love people the way Jesus showed us. Culture now and culture then are different, and we keep on learning. My great-uncle, who was a pastor, said "if the church doesn't change, it will die". Culture changes, but God doesn't.

Good topic; keep it going.

[nastyhobbitses]

I'm Jewish so I'm not quite as familiar with Christianity, but here's how I understand these terms:

Mainline: you go to church, maybe participate in church events, believe in God, celebrate religious holidays, might be varying levels of observant, but generally "in the world" and not especially strict.

Evangelical: Can overlap with Fundamentalist, but you believe that you need to convert people to your religious beliefs. This can be anything from just talking to people about your religion all the way up to knocking on people's doors or going on missions. You might be a Fundamentalist, or you might not be.

Fundamentalist: Not exclusive to Christianity (there are Fundamentalists of all faiths). You're legalistic, often interpret your religion's teachings and scripture literally, are very observant, and generally very conservative politically and socially. And within Fundamentalism you have degrees:

Fundie Lite: Think Modern Orthodox, Alyssa Webster, Raquel, most of the Mormons you see on Pinterest. Observant and conservative (and often Evangelical), but not very removed from mainstream society, if at all. Step up from "devout [Religion]", but overlaps with that.

Fundie: Just to keep it simple, I'm going to discuss mostly Protestant Fundamentalists in the US. At this level, you have a lot of Apostolic Christians, the Bates family, and arguably, the married Duggars (pre-scandals Josh and Anna are probably a good example). More visible and vocal in their faith than Fundie Lite, but willing to bend the rules here and there, and not completely cut off from the mainstream.

Devout Fundie: I'd say around here is where I'd put people like the Maxwells or Haredi Jews. Much more insular and strict (no television, less leeway when it comes to attire), and very limited interactions with "the world". 

 

[RosyDaisy]

Not all evangelicals set out to convert. We help people in need without expecting anything in return. Actions speak louder than words. People are more willing to open up. If they don't then that's ok. We are still there to help.

[Ungodly Grandma]

1 minute ago, RosyDaisy said:

Not all evangelicals set out to convert. We help people in need without expecting anything in return. Actions speak louder than words. People are more willing to open up. If they don't then that's ok. We are still there to help.

This to me is the essence of Christianity.

[FundieFarmer]

I'm Christian, as I know others on here are. I hold some of the more conservative beliefs, mixed with a socially liberal philosophy. I feel that my religion & faith is mine and am loathe to push it on others. You won't find me on a corner in a sandwich board or handing out tracts. I'm here obviously because I don't like how fundamentalism perverts how good Christianity *can* be. That said...

Fundamentalists of any faith, to me, are the people who take it a step too far, and a mile past that. They take the religious book literally, and then add their own interpretation to it. In regards to Christianity, the Bible says to be modest? WE MUST WEAR NO PANTS AND NEVER SHOW OUR ANKLES. Men should be the leaders? EVEN THE SONS SHALL COMMAND MOM. I think this can be applied to all faiths: when things pass what the religious book says and hit human insanity to become about benefit of a certain group of people (whether sex, race, nationality, etc)...to me, that's fundamentalism.

[guitar_villain]

Fundamentalism to me is fairly easy to categorize if not define.  If you believe that you know The Truth and that you are the only people who do, you're fundamentalist.  You can be pretty much any religion  (or other belief- there are political fundamentalists too) and be a fundamentalist.

Evangelical means you're out trying to convert the heathens.  Correlated with fundamentalism, but they aren't necessarily linked- it's possible to be one and not the other.

For me, evangelicals are annoying since they wake you up on weekends.  Fundamentalists are dangerous since they do things like get into positions of power and then demand everyone else believe The Truth.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

7 minutes ago, guitar_villain said:

Fundamentalism to me is fairly easy to categorize if not define.  If you believe that you know The Truth and that you are the only people who do, you're fundamentalist.  You can be pretty much any religion  (or other belief- there are political fundamentalists too) and be a fundamentalist.

This. See Sparkling Lauren from Christian to Rainbow always fundie.

Fundamentalisms seem to attract people unable to distance themselves from binary thought. They think that their way is the only right way and they must convince/coerce/save/submit all the other people who clearly are dead wrong. Imo fundamentalisms tend to assume the form of religions, movements or political parties, when not full blown dictatorships. 

Personally I grew up Catholic in a very Catholic society and I don't know much about theological disputes among the different Christian flavours nor about what sets evengelicals apart from the others. My fundiemeter is simple: do they think they are the only ones who possess the Truth? Do they act to impose said Truth upon the others (be them family members or society at large)? If the answer is yes then they are fundies. YMMV. 

[louisa05]

The language of "Jesus saves" and "ask Jesus into your heart" came, as someone already mentioned, from the Second Great Awakening. It does permeate some more mainline denominations. In practice, however, you would find that most Methodists, Presbyterians and Lutherans are not too concerned with what you watch on television, what anyone wears, or if you enjoy something not Jesus related too much. 

It is also important to understand that there are many different sects of many mainline denominations. While most ELCA Lutherans are not at all fundamentalist and do not have evangelical tendencies in politics, spreading the Gospel and such, Missouri or Wisconsin Synod Lutherans can be very evangelical and sometimes fundamentalist. Likewise, there are different sects of Presbyterians as well. On top of that, practice and belief can vary widely from congregation to congregation. My aunt's Lutheran church split from the ELCA when it voted as a denomination to allow gay clergy. They declared themselves and independent congregation of Lutherans and judging by her recent behavior and the congregation's Facebook page, they are heading for all out fundamentalism. They have no pastor, are not having Lutheran style worship services, have random lay people speaking at services--many of whom are not Lutheran but from various evangelical and even fundie churches or ministries, are making modesty rules for services, etc...But the sign on the building says Lutheran. 

BTW...if you are Catholic and miss Sunday mass for legitimate reasons (sickness, emergency, etc...), you are not considered to have sinned. And your understanding of salvation via Catholicism is a bit off. It is not dependent on the stuff you listed. The two sections of the Catechism in this link explain: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

For a good overview of how the "Jesus in your heart" theology became so prominent in American Protestantism, read Nathan O. Hatch's The Democratization of American Christianity. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

There are about 40 different types of Christianity globally, and the majority if it is inoffensive, but also WIDELY differing in beliefs. The main thing with the labels "fundie", "quiverfull", and "evangelical" is that they don't even actually have a firm definition. For example I have zero idea what "mainline" means - there is no Christian group that identifies as "mainline".

I think we can all agree that "fundie" is the worst of the lot, latching on to an almost Amish like set of regressive ideals that espouse early Christian church notions of gender roles; sexism; anti-science; and even anti-progress; and other kinds of damaging, ass-backwards ideas.

A proper, inoffensive, modern Christian to me has zero issues with science; women's rights; gender diversity; doesn't believe in a literal Hell; and probably won't even try and convert you unless you actually go to their church.

[Coconut Flan]

Quote

espouse early Christian church notions

Some of their ideas aren't even from the early church.  They're full on current fundie inventions.

The super pushing a four or five step guide to "getting saved" and a "personal relationship with Jesus" became more of thing in the sixties to eighties.  That seems to be when it was codified in the tracts and some of the churches especially some mega churches simplified the Gospel to pretty much that. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

Oh, yeah, Coconut, totally agree. I was just being general. Heck, a huge chunk of Christian concepts are just reformulated ideas from classical Greece even.

[louisa05]

7 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Some of their ideas aren't even from the early church.  They're full on current fundie inventions.

The super pushing a four or five step guide to "getting saved" and a "personal relationship with Jesus" became more of thing in the sixties to eighties.  That seems to be when it was codified in the tracts and some of the churches especially some mega churches simplified the Gospel to pretty much that. 

The language changed a bit with the Jesus Movement beginning in the 1960s, but the distribution of tracts goes back to the 19th Century as does the theological underpinning of salvation as a personal experience of Jesus. This all emerged in the Second Great Awakening which included a movement away from educated clergy and reason to personal conviction and emotional experiences. See the book recommendation I made in a previous post. 

[docmom]

Fundamentalism in my opinion has absolutely nothing to do with right wing politics, denomination or even a specific religion and everything to do with the idea that you must believe and do everything exactly the way "I" think you should and that every other way is WRONG.  So you can be a protestant fundamentalist (Duggars, Maxwells etc), a catholic fundamentalist (Abigail, the Tierneys), a Muslim fundamentalist, a Buddhist fundamentalist and even a Rainbow fundamentalist (Lauren).

I grew up Presbyterian and now attend an Episcopal church.  I am (for the US) an extreme liberal.  I have friends, really good ones, who are more moderate and  some who are quite right wing who also go to my church.  One is a YEC.  Not one of them thinks they've figured out the right way to do religion and none of them would dream of suggesting their way was the only way.

[Coconut Flan]

19 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

The language changed a bit with the Jesus Movement beginning in the 1960s, but the distribution of tracts goes back to the 19th Century as does the theological underpinning of salvation as a personal experience of Jesus. This all emerged in the Second Great Awakening which included a movement away from educated clergy and reason to personal conviction and emotional experiences. See the book recommendation I made in a previous post. 

Yes, it did.  But in the possible Fourth Great Awakening, it had a resurgence and more simplified structure and along with it came the mega church.   The Second Great Awakening was a lot about an emotional experience and complete conversion.  It was based in revivalism. A lot of that is absent in the more recent version.  I'm not denying the roots of it, but further explaining the more recent evolution which is what we're seeing the results of with our current crop of fundies and fundie-lites. 

I wasn't talking tracts in general but the very specific and simplified four or five step to salvation tracts that are a main stay of the more recent "soul winning" approach. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

19 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

Oh, yeah, Coconut, totally agree. I was just being general. Heck, a huge chunk of Christian concepts are just reformulated ideas from classical Greece even.

Such as? 

Not saying that Christianity have nothing to do with classical Greece, but I am curious to know what you mean with that statement. "Classical Greece" is a pretty big category.

[THERetroGamerNY]

3 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Such as? 

Not saying that Christianity have nothing to do with classical Greece, but I am curious to know what you mean with that statement. "Classical Greece" is a pretty big category.

Classical Greece is 5th to 4th century BC, specifically beginning when they repelled the Persian invasion. There are concepts during this age of an underworld where everybody went after they died (you know, Hades). There was no escaping from this gloomy fate, so they espoused the idea of living life to the fullest before an eternity of gloom. In the Bible there is a concept almost exactly the same as this original underworld, in that there was an underworld realm before Christ's crucifixion where even those who believed in God were sent. According to the Christian mythos, Christ set those believers free. Somewhere in all this, I guess, the idea of Satan and Hell were born - though I've never had that adequately explained to me. It eventually evolved into Purgatory, and is still around.

The basic concept of the original Abrahamic God was so similar to the Roman god of Jupiter, which in turn is merely a renaming of the god Zeus, that there are numerous Roman conflations with Jupiter and the Christian God being one and the same - including even artwork in which the Christian God basically looks like the ancient god of Greece.

Zeus was, at one point in time, believed to be the only god in the heavens. The belief was that all the other gods were just different manifestations of him. He was even addressed as "our father in heaven", or even "our savior", because Zeus  - being a sky god - had control of the weather, and could save them from perilous weather. Zeus was depicted seated on a pearly-white throne, as is the Christian God. Zeus dressed in white ... so does the Christian God. The idea of Zeus being one god, but manifested in different ways is echoed in the Christian concept of the Trinity (which supposedly is not a pagan concept of multiple gods, but sure sounds like it to me).

Plato said of gods being "the beginning and the end" - the Christian god is said to be the "Alpha and the Omega" (the beginning and the end).

Christ is depicted as a shepherd of the flocks, tending his sheep. The god Mercury was depicted in the exact same way, because Mercury was the god of flocks. Heck, Mercury even was depicted in artwork as having a sheep carried across his shoulders just like modern Christ did.

The concepts in Christianity of "eating the flesh and blood" of Christ, as well as the miracle of turning the water into wine is pretty much straight out of the cult of Dionysus (or Bacchus), who was the god of wine. One ceremony even included placing three empty pots into the temple, which would then miraculously be filled with wine in the morning.

If you can find a copy of "The Story of Civilization, Part II: The Life of Greece", particularly the section where he discusses Greek religion, there are more comparisons, and despite Durant's occasional flaws, his works are very readable.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Thank you for your reply. I'm not ignoring you. I'll reply more in depth as soon as I can. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

Thank you for your reply. I'm not ignoring you. I'll reply more in depth as soon as I can. 

No worries, it's not like it's a lightweight topic. lol

[Shadoewolf]

I went to Catholic schools as a kid, my mom has always been what I would consider deeply religious. She went to one of those more progressive, music based churches on Wednesday nights and every Sunday, holidays, etc.  I attended what I think was a Baptist church in my teens (laying hands, speaking in tongues, etc) but backed out of it once I learned our youth pastor was convicted of 20+ counts of criminal sexual conduct with minors, and they said my ability to dream things before they happened was a tool of the Devil.  Then in high school our civics teacher took us through religion, as in the fundamentals of most of them. I loved it, and decided to study more on my own. I found an eclectic Pagan path, and have been following it since I was about 16.  My ex's family is fanatically Catholic, like confession and being active members of the Knights of Columbus. It was always a problem with them, even though I would politely attend services when asked. My mom to this day knows what I am and what I believe and still insists on threatening me with "God sees everything, you'll pay for acting like this", or telling me that God doesn't like it when I disrespect her (read I tell it to her straight on her drinking issues, how materialistic she is, etc) and every time we get off the phone she says she'll pray for me and "May God bless you and keep you".  Yet she believes in reincarnation to a point, is kinda pro-choice, believes religion should stay out of schools, listens to every kind of music but mainly classic rock.

I know the Christian Bible pretty much inside and out, I frequently quote passages back to the people who try to use it against me, especially the ones who show up at the door. It throws them off balance considering the Pentacle windchimes hanging on my porch.  I have a copy of the Satanic Bible, along with books by Cunningham and SilverRaven Wolf, some on Druidic practice.  There's an English translation of the Quran on the shelf with Buddhist teachings and a Native American book on spirit animals.  I've always believed that people fear what they don't understand, so I wanted to have a basic understanding of everything. We raise the kids with morals, we want them to be good people without some eternal threat and when they're old enough, we're going to let them choose their own path and support whatever they choose. But I don't feel like ours is the only way.