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"She Only Said "Yes" Once" -- Christian husband discusses consent and sex ed


Rachel333

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7 hours ago, Inthemadhouse said:

I'll never look at a koala the same way.  But does anyone else thing that Koalas With Chlamydia sounds like an awesome punk rock band?

It's on a similar level to Dingoes Ate My Baby.

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Generally speaking, my "I will" did pretty much mean the basic consent talks were over (actually, we'd moved past "is this okay with you?" long before the "I wills," but for the purpose of this discussion ... ). But ... that still doesn't give him carte blanche over my body, and if one of us simply is not down for it, then so be it. Save it for another night. It disgusts me that fundies have so little consideration for their partners.

As for teens and consent -- We started consent talks in babyhood. We'd ask for kisses, and if we were tickling and they'd scream no, then we'd respect those "nos." Basically, we taught our kids by word and action that they had bodily autonomy and had the right to have their wishes regarding their bodies respected AND they owed that same consideration to others. Which means that today, our kids ask us for goodnight kisses and hugs (and vice versa). If a kid says no to a hug, then I ALWAYS respect that. As they get older, yes, I'll have the sex/consent talks, but this has been ingrained into them since they were tiny. This guy acts like this is "TOTALLY NEW INFORMATION." If you do it right, this is just building on lessons you've been teaching all along.

And this ... 

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Do you want to kiss her?  Ask for consent.  Do you want to touch her breasts?  Ask for consent again.  Do you want to take her clothes off?  Ask for consent again.  Do you want to penetrate?  Ask for consent again.

If that’s too graphic for you, just remember, this is 10th grade material. If it makes you uncomfortable, then just imagine being one of the 15 year-old kids in that classroom who are hearing those words (and many that are far more graphic)

 

 
 

That's graphic? Maybe we should direct him to the Lori Alexander School of Sex so that he can learn about TRULY graphic discussions!

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  • My first thought about this was, it's like the husband thinks because he married his wife, he owns her to do what he wants with her.  Um.  No.  I'm married, but the answer isn't always yes.  Just because we both said "yes" at the alter does not mean we can jump the other whenever we please.  Not to mention, I'm pregnant and sometimes a moody b lately.  Lucky for me, Mr Klynn isn't a patriarchial (sp) moron.  Or, rather, lucky for him ;)
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23 hours ago, klynn said:
  • My first thought about this was, it's like the husband thinks because he married his wife, he owns her to do what he wants with her.  Um.  No.  I'm married, but the answer isn't always yes.  Just because we both said "yes" at the alter does not mean we can jump the other whenever we please.  Not to mention, I'm pregnant and sometimes a moody b lately.  Lucky for me, Mr Klynn isn't a patriarchial (sp) moron.  Or, rather, lucky for him ;)

As a Christian, this has been a hard thing for me to reconcile.  Paul wrote that the husband and wife had free access to each other except for times of praying and fasting.  Having been in a marriage where I was always expected to be "on" and enjoy each experience more than the last--in light of the huge cloud of deception and cheating that hung over our marriage--I wanted to say "no" far more times than I wanted to say "yes."  

It's not like I never, ever have lied or never will again, but I felt that pretending to feel something that wasn't there was a lie.  I could have faked it and made him happy...but it would have been a lie on my part and would have left me feeling even more miserable and hating intimacy even more.

Ours was a messed up marriage.  He always expected to hear a joyful, enthusiastic "YES!!!" and I dreaded the thought each and every time, because I knew he'd been with other women and because he expected me just to get over it and get on with things.  So messed up--on both our parts.  Wish I could report that I miss that intimate time together, but I'd be lying.

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This guy would lose his mind if he knew that me and the mister went about 18 months without teh seks...he was so sick that things didn't work well.

We've been together about 20 years now and it's long past the "rip his/her clothes off and go for it". Its nice but not the end all and be all of marriage like these idiotic neanderthals think it is...but then again...I don't own him nor does he own me. 

 

 

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When I'm sick, sex is the last thing on my husband's mind. His first instinct is to make me feel better.

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When I got married, the pastor asked me:

"will you have this man to be your husband; to live together in the covenant of marriage? Will you love him, comfort him, honor and keep him, in sickness and in health; and, forsaking all others, be faithful to him as long as you both shall live?"(Episcopal BCP). 

I said, "I will."

Later in the ceremony I vowed:

"In the Name of God, I take you to be my husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, until we are parted by death. This is my solemn vow."

My spouse gave the same answer, made the same vow.

Nowhere did either of us promise the other uninterrupted sexual access.  It is not in our wedding vows.  We promised love, loyalty and respect.  We could not promise these things and at the same time interpret "have and hold" to mean that we were giving up physical autonomy.

Sex is an important part of marriage, but the same people who say "true love waits" for marriage seem to forget that "true love" should sometimes "wait" during marriage.

Advanced pregnancy, UTIs, yeast infection, stomach viruses, etc. are some of the reasons that " tonight," might not be "the night."

Then there are emotional reasons or just issues of timing that interfere with pleasurable sex.  If the marriage is a real marriage instead of some sort of licensed prostitution, both partners need to be able to initiate and to refuse (or set limits to) sex.  My husband promised to "cherish" me just as I promised to "cherish" him.

How can one of us forcing (or guilting, or manipulating) the other to have sex when the other is feeling ill or just not in the mood be "cherishing"?

What a perversion of the wedding vows is it that makes some people think that marriage means the wife cannot say "no" ever again?

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Ugh, this guy squicks me out.

Still, I agree that consent for every part of sex is not necessary/consent is different in marriage. And maybe my experiences (not having a lot of married sex because we are both women = 2 periods, and my wife doesn't necessarily see sex as as important as I do), color my ideas.

Ask for consent verbally with shorter-term partners, definitely. But body language can work too as long as you don't take previous consent as current consent.

OTOH, when you're married, think carefully about turning your spouse down, though. If someone is sick, pregnant, just had a baby, is really too tired, is really mad at you, or seriously doesn't want it, then of course don't badger them! But, if you're just a bit annoyed because they, for example, did not do X or Y around the house, if you're just zoning out in front of reruns on Netflix or similar, or you are in a "meh..." mood about sex...give it a try, or at least show some affection.

Sex in marriage is, I think, mostly about affection and bonding, and repeatedly shutting your partner down isn't good for the relationship. And refusing sex shouldn't be punitive in petty ways. Of course you don't want to have sex with a cheater, but don't do that weird "making the person do X, Y, and Z to get sex," that some couples do (e.g. making a man "help" with chores by promising/refusing sex).

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Would this person like it if the tables were turned and he was on the receiving end? Probably not.

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As I was not a full custody parent when my kid was less than a year, I always told him, before he even could comprehend it probably, if anyone other than his mom and dad or the doctor ever touched him where his underwear covered to yell NO and tell mommy. I further followed it up casually and often to ask if anyone had touched him or tickled him where his underwear was. When I would wash my kids they would say only mommy can wash my penis, right?  I do the same with my newish kids. It is so very important to empower kids to say no and to go the next step and tell kids to ask permission is brilliant. I will be having that conversation with my teen soon.  

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However, I will say that occasional 3AM half-asleep groping that leads to good sex is ALWAYS welcome...

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My stepsons have been taught consent since they were around 10. Hubby started the "dad" talks with them then and relied on me to have the follow up "straight talk" chat with them after. It's a system that works for us, as I am only 11 years older than our oldest. We knew their mom wouldn't address sex at all beyond "don't do it". Both boys are in their mid 20s now. They have been told that "no" means no, "stop" means stop, and that "that feels good" does not mean yes, etc.. During a bridal shower game last year one of my daughter-in-law's aunt gave the bride the following wedding night advice "lean how to fake a headache" (mine was "don't get too drunk airports suck with a hangover") and she caught my eye and replied "oh I won't have to use that" and winked. I knew then that my chats had worked. 

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I have very strong feelings about people like this asshole. Very, very strong feelings. I don't care if you're married to someone, they don't have to have sex with you whenever you want. They don't have to have sex with you EVER. Fuck this guy and fuck every asshole that's just like him! I would love to kick them all in the balls. Repeatedly.

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This whole message that marriage is about getting your freak on whenever the guy wants really disgusts me.  I like to jump my guy's bones when I get the chance (especially since we are geo-separated courtesy of Uncle Sam) but there is more to our relationship than just THAT.

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I think what really bothered me about this piece (besides, you know, all of it), was this part:  

Quote

A new law requires that teachers give lessons on something called “affirmative consent”.  These children are taught to ask for consent at every point in a sexual encounter.

Do you want to kiss her?  Ask for consent.  Do you want to touch her breasts?  Ask for consent again.  Do you want to take her clothes off?  Ask for consent again.  Do you want to penetrate?  Ask for consent again.

If that’s too graphic for you, just remember, this is 10th grade material. If it makes you uncomfortable, then just imagine being one of the 15 year-old kids in that classroom who are hearing those words (and many that are far more graphic) with other boys and girls their own age…the same boys and girls they used to finger-paint with in kindergarten.

One student, upon hearing that he needed to check with a girl before touching her in certain places or doing certain things, asked, “What does that mean – you have to say ‘yes’ every 10 minutes?”

“Pretty much,” the teacher answered.

Somehow that seemed extraordinarily out of place to this young man, that one would have to pause the progression of an intimate encounter to ask, over and over again, “May I do this now?”

Those aren’t exactly words of passion and romance, are they?

 Mostly, because I think it's awesome that kids are learning to ask these questions.  I realize that this particular male specimen thinks these questions are awkward and mood killing, etc... etc... but - what he doesn't seem to realize is that by asking these questions over and over and over again, to the same person - you start to learn more and more about that person.  Asking these questions is how you start to learn non-verbal cues.  Consent questions are not only important for consent purposes, but also because in utilizing these questions, in asking over and over and over again, "Is this ok?"  "Are you comfortable with this?" "Do you enjoy this"? Not only are you reaffirming a consensual relationship, you are also learning what your partner does and does not enjoy.  Basically, by asking these questions over and over again, and listening to the responses you are given, you are becoming a better lover.  Leading, ironically (considering this dude's aversion to these questions because Romance!!!1eleventy!!!111) to a deeper, more intimate and satisfying relationship.  

Also, "too graphic"??? Please.  These are 10th graders.  Is the man living under a rock?  

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So I've only ever had 1 boyfriend who became my husband. My experience with men is very limited. My husband has never had to flat out ask me those types of things because he just knows me so well and we've always been really open with each other about everything.

Possibly TMI alert(?) I can only recall one time in my life a guy friend (who I liked) in college started kissing my neck while we were watching a movie (and we were slightly tipsy) and he did say a few times "tell me if this isn't okay." Honestly...I found that to be kind of a turn on. I can't really explain why. But it was. Maybe because someone actually being respectful is hot to me? I don't know. But yeah...it was. So I don't see anything wrong with it.

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Oh absolutely, at some point you move past the having to ask for permission for every single thing!  Mr Treehugger and I no longer feel the need to ask unless we are trying something new.  But, we both have learned a great deal about each other - and we are comfortable enough to tell the other to bugger off if we don't feel like it.  

But for teenagers - I think it is brilliant that they are learning how to ask for consent.  Sure, it's awkward at first - but after a while, you get good at asking.  And being respectful and asking is hot.  I have had old boyfriends who didn't ask for permission for physical contact, and clearly didn't respect the cold shoulder I was giving them.  And it felt incredibly violating to be kissed when I didn't want to be kissed.  

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On 20/04/2016 at 5:27 AM, treehugger said:
On 20/04/2016 at 5:50 AM, ClaraOswin said:

Possibly TMI alert(?) I can only recall one time in my life a guy friend (who I liked) in college started kissing my neck while we were watching a movie (and we were slightly tipsy) and he did say a few times "tell me if this isn't okay." Honestly...I found that to be kind of a turn on. I can't really explain why. But it was. Maybe because someone actually being respectful is hot to me? I don't know. But yeah...it was. So I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

This.  Sometimes "Is this okay?" followed by "oh hell yeah" is awesome!

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It's ashame it took took until 1993 for marital rape to be a crime; though it had been up for debate a long time.. This reminds me of 'Coal Miner's Daughter' when 'Moony'  told Loretta 'It's what married people do" I gathered she was  a victim of marital rape. but in those days, consent wasn't part of the equation.

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I couldn't read it all.  :brainbleach:  Yes, I said yes at the altar.  But know what there was no mention of sex on tap anywhere in my vows, neither was their mention of me losing my autonomy, unless you're going to stretch the whole cleave together scripture.  And I'm all for enthusiastic consent, I want to know my partner is having fun, and there are lots of ways to ascertain consent than, "you good."

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Yeah, without getting too graphic here, it really isn't difficult to find a way to ask if your partner likes what you are doing (or what they would like for you to do) that heightens the mood rather than putting a damper on things...

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