Hobby Lobby Families Bible Museum looting artifacts?

[Swamptribe]

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/04/15/hobby-lobby-steve-green-bible-museum-washington-dc-444752.html

  Why does this not surprise me in the least.    Didn't the Duggars make a big deal about this place at one point? Nest thing you know, they'll want to destroy the Parthenon and Stonehenge because they are pagan sites

[Howl]

Great article, but not surprising.  (I had to look up 'vitrine'.  It's a glass display case.) 

Especially liked this: 

Quote

“There is no such thing as ‘the’ Bible,” says John Kutsko, executive director of the Society for Biblical Literature, a global organization of scholars who study and read ancient works that influenced or became part of the Bible. He and many others fear that Green’s museum will present a narrow, evangelical version of the Bible and its role in American society, one that ignores versions of the text used by Jews, Muslims and the many Christians of other creeds.

“We are a melting pot, and there are many religions here,” Kutsko says. “The museum could be a showcase for how we and our texts are different and can coexist peacefully. That would be a wonderful message to bring to bear, particularly in the environment we live in, an environment of absolutists and polarization.”

The bolded, of course, is the whole point the museum wants to reinforce: narrow, Evangelical, polarizing. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Howl

[Four is Enough]

Every time I read a story like this, I'm reminded of the line from Jurassic Park, when the math professor says, "you have the technology and the money to do this, but you never ask if you SHOULD do this"...

What kind of message does it send that this guy is cherry picking his artifacts to "prove" his version of the Bible (shudder) and probably hiding anything he finds that puts the lie to that version? 

[hoipolloi]

It is highly likely, at least, that those cuneiform tablets were trafficked items, quite possibly by or through the bloody hands of Daesh (a.k.a. ISIS). When Daesh hasn't destroyed sites outright, like the Temple of Palmyra, they have systematically looted them for salable items, knowing that fucking assholes like Steve Green will pay anything to acquire them.

I really hope that the US AG proceeds with a criminal prosecution against Green/Hobby Lobby, not only for trafficking but for dealing with a terrorist organization.

[Hera]

Like I needed another reason to never set foot in a Hobby Lobby, but it's good to have my life choices affirmed.  

[formergothardite]

I think we had a thread about this a while back, but it does seem that they bought stolen items. And I bet they give no shits about it and knew exactly what they were doing. It would make my day if they got in trouble for this. 

[hoipolloi]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I think we had a thread about this a while back, but it does seem that they bought stolen items. And I bet they give no shits about it and knew exactly what they were doing. It would make my day if they got in trouble for this. 

Yes, I started the prior thread last fall but it's good to see that controversy continues to swirl around these assholes & their bullshit "museum."

This more recent article from The Atlantic has a lot of info. Also, lest anyone think we're talking about something minor, here are some estimates on the kind of money Daesh is getting from trafficking, from a Vanity Fair article last fall:

Quote

Last February, the United Nations adopted a resolution stating that its members would seek to prevent terrorist groups, including ISIS, from profiting off these sales. According to Col. Matt Bogdanos, a single, four-inch cylinder seal from ancient Babylonia can sell for nearly $250,000 alone, and the U.N. ambassador from Iraq, Mohamed Ali Alhakim, estimated that ISIS earns more than $100 million per year antiquities trading.

 

[formergothardite]

What the Greens did was despicable and it is so frustrating that the people who rallied behind their "Christian values" don't give one single fuck about any of this. I've not seen any outrage or anything at all coming from Christian groups or churches.  

[nastyhobbitses]

39 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

It is highly likely, at least, that those cuneiform tablets were trafficked items, quite possibly by or through the bloody hands of Daesh (a.k.a. ISIS). When Daesh hasn't destroyed sites outright, like the Temple of Palmyra, they have systematically looted them for salable items, knowing that fucking assholes like Steve Green will pay anything to acquire them.

I really hope that the US AG proceeds with a criminal prosecution against Green/Hobby Lobby, not only for trafficking but for dealing with a terrorist organization.

A bunch of narrow-minded fundamentalists who want to bend the world to their demented will, oppress women, persecute LGBT people, promote a perverted form of a quite diverse and mostly peaceful religion, and are willing to commit crimes to further their aims might be doing business with a bunch of narrow-minded fundamentalists who want to bend the world to their demented will, oppress women, persecute LGBT people, promote a perverted form of a quite diverse and mostly peaceful religion, and are willing to commit crimes to further their aims? Well, I never!

Also, now I really want to do some digging into this. I've been waiting for investigative journalists to really start delving into Fundamentalist Christianity in the United States, and if Hobby Lobby is indeed acquiring stuff from Daesh or intermediaries of Daesh, that might be the key to blowing the lid off of a lot of the other fucked-up things we already talk about on FJ.

[sawasdee]

@nastyhobbitsesBeautifully put!

And PLEASE let some enterprising journalist really get their teeth into this one......

[hoipolloi]

25 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

@nastyhobbitsesBeautifully put!

And PLEASE let some enterprising journalist really get their teeth into this one......

From your keyboard to God's (or the FSM's) ear!

[DaisyD]

1 hour ago, Hera said:

Like I needed another reason to never set foot in a Hobby Lobby, but it's good to have my life choices affirmed.  

I went into Hobby Lobby exactly once. I didn't need stickers or distressed clocks so I left. The bc debacle made me vow to never go back. Now I want karma to do her thing all over these people with a vengeance. 

My whole year would be made if the Greens were put on trial for treason. Please, oh please, oh please! 

Edited April 8, 2016 by daisyd681

[Bad Wolf]

I went in once for their yarn. It's quite nice for service projects, and they hae a wide variety of colors for their baby yarn. Then I read up on their fundie views and never went back. Sigh. The yarn really called to me.

[hoipolloi]

10 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I went in once for their yarn. It's quite nice for service projects, and they hae a wide variety of colors for their baby yarn. Then I read up on their fundie views and never went back. Sigh. The yarn really called to me.

I feel your regret. Having recently gotten into craft stuff myself, these types of stores are irresistible to me -- but even this addict has her limits, and HobbyLobby is definitely one of them.

[16strong]

Good to see a confirmation of my choice to avoid shopping at Hobby Lobby. I have everyone in my family avoiding them, too. I will never shop there again.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I know of an acquaintance's church that debated the topic. Most were appalled at $$ going to ISIS, but some were bringing up the point that ISIS(and the Taliban, for that matter) has destroyed priceless artifacts left and right so if the items aren't purchased, then they may not survive.  I can understand why someone might make the "lesser of two evils" argument, though I only have read a little bit on the controversy and haven't really formed an opinion yet on whether I think they knowingly did anything illegal or not.

Edited April 8, 2016 by GenerationCedarchip
can't spell today

[sawasdee]

1 minute ago, GenerationCedarchip said:

I know of an acquaintance's church that debated the topic. Most were appalled at $$ going to ISIS, but some were bringing up the point that ISIS(and the Taliban, for that matter) has destroyed priceless artifacts left and right so if the items aren't purchased, then they may not survive.  I can understand why someone might make the "lesser of two evils" argument, though I only have read a little bit on the controversy and haven't really formed an opinion yet..

I would think the greater evil is providing the money which enables indiscriminate slaughter of anyone of whom ISIS/Daesh disapproves.

Or do they believe that the people are replaceable, but the artifacts are not?

[formergothardite]

27 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

I would think the greater evil is providing the money which enables indiscriminate slaughter of anyone of whom ISIS/Daesh disapproves.

Or do they believe that the people are replaceable, but the artifacts are not?

Exactly. The only way to justify giving money to terrorist to buy artifacts being the "lesser evil" is to say that the humans killed just aren't as important. So I am not understanding the "lesser evil" argument when it comes to this case at all. 

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, GenerationCedarchip said:

I know of an acquaintance's church that debated the topic. Most were appalled at $$ going to ISIS, but some were bringing up the point that ISIS(and the Taliban, for that matter) has destroyed priceless artifacts left and right so if the items aren't purchased, then they may not survive.  I can understand why someone might make the "lesser of two evils" argument, though I only have read a little bit on the controversy and haven't really formed an opinion yet on whether I think they knowingly did anything illegal or not.

From the Daily Beast article that broke the story last fall:

Quote

Steve Green, the CEO of Hobby Lobby, admitted that among his family’s extensive collection they might have some illegally-acquired antiquities, though he denied having ever knowingly done anything wrong. “Is it possible that we have some illicit [artifacts]? That’s possible,” he told us for a story slated to appear in a forthcoming issue of The Atlantic. It seems unlikely that this case, however, is one of simply misunderstanding the relevant laws. The paperwork misidentifying the antiquities as “tile samples” certainly suggests otherwise. What’s more, however, in the summer of 2010, Patty Gerstenblith, a law professor at DePaul University working in the area of cultural heritage, met privately with the Greens in order to explain to them precisely these issues: how to do due diligence with regard to provenance and how to watch out for legal complications with regard to antiquities sales. It cannot be said that the Greens were totally ignorant of the world in which they were engaging. And a year later, the Greens imported the tablets that have now become the subject of the federal investigation.

Considering the bolded sentence in the above quote and the timeline, I'd say Steve Green & Hobby Lobby are fucking liars. They knew exactly what they were doing but figured they were above the law because Jesus. 

Given this, there's no "lesser of two evils," just some selfish, arrogant Christianists who think their money entitles them to do anything they want. 

[nastyhobbitses]

8 hours ago, GenerationCedarchip said:

I know of an acquaintance's church that debated the topic. Most were appalled at $$ going to ISIS, but some were bringing up the point that ISIS(and the Taliban, for that matter) has destroyed priceless artifacts left and right so if the items aren't purchased, then they may not survive.  I can understand why someone might make the "lesser of two evils" argument, though I only have read a little bit on the controversy and haven't really formed an opinion yet on whether I think they knowingly did anything illegal or not.

I could understand the "well, someone's gotta buy them or they're going to be destroyed" argument if it were, say, local museum officials/scholars offloading the items before Daesh could get to them. But Daesh already has them, and is going to use those millions of dollars to buy missiles that can take down airplanes (cf. the Russian flight in Egypt), more fuel and cars to convey their soldiers into towns, cities, and villages to rape and murder at will, more weapons to massacre schools and public squares, and more technological equipment to lure more disaffected or psychopathic youths into their sick cult. In that case, the lesser of two evils is letting these sick fucks blow up a few monuments rather than use the money to kill more innocent people.

Also, I noted in the Atlantic Monthly article that Stevie isn't opening up the collection to, ya know, all scholars who may have an interest or expertise in the artifacts, but instead to handpicked scholars who will parrot his point of view. I'm not convinced that he's going to pick/hire people with any real expertise in preservation either.

[keen23]

Ha! It turns out that all of the bible fragments in the Museum of the Bible are forgeries.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/15/us/bible-museum-dead-sea-scrolls/index.html

 

[PennySycamore]

I saw that story, @keen23.  Color me not shocked.

[hoipolloi]

And the things that aren't forgeries appear to be stolen and trafficked:

 

[RosyDaisy]

Apparently the Greens believe "thou shalt not steal" doesn't apply to them or ancient artifacts.  Self-righteous fundie assholes.

[FloraKitty35]

Hobby Lobby is opening a new store here in Dover. It's their 1st store in Delaware, otherwise the nearest one is about an hour away from here in Salisbury.  I really don't care to go to Hobby Lobby. (I am pissed that AC Moore went out of business. I enjoyed shopping there.)

Edited May 19, 2020 by FloraKitty35
removed content from post