Jill and Jessa Counting On - Part 4

[lascuba]

Duggars (and other assorted dysfunctional families) aside, I'm thrilled that it looks like TLC might finally be reaping what they sowed with their "cater to the lowest common denominator" programming. 

[anotherone]

1 hour ago, socalrules said:

Daniels also has a boss she has to answer to. I can understand why she continues to speak as though the show is a ratings star....

We have to remember that TLC is just in the business of making money. 

Based on all the positive comments on fb and instagram you know there are followers. She was banking on them, and guessing the "vocal" group (us) would give up. Probably a reasonable guess from how popular they were. 

I dont fault TLC, as you say they are just a business, not our moral leaders. Its really up to us to protest loud enough. If we dont they will just stay on the air.

[imjustasteph]

Re Nancy Daniels saying 'millions' of viewers -- maybe she's assuming every tv that tuned in had two parents and 7-19 kids watching.

[Ungodly Grandma]

35 minutes ago, imjustasteph said:

Re Nancy Daniels saying 'millions' of viewers -- maybe she's assuming every tv that tuned in had two parents and 7-19 kids watching.

She may even be right!

[EmCatlyn]

55 minutes ago, anotherone said:

Based on all the positive comments on fb and instagram you know there are followers. She was banking on them, and guessing the "vocal" group (us) would give up. Probably a reasonable guess from how popular they were. 

I dont fault TLC, as you say they are just a business, not our moral leaders. Its really up to us to protest loud enough. If we dont they will just stay on the air.

I fault TLC for having given the Duggars a show in the first place.  If Oprah got a letter about the molestation, don't you think Discovery and/or TLC did also?  They are not our "moral leaders" but they don't have to cover up criminal acts and cover ups.

They went ahead with the show, though they knew about Josh, and they also connived at concealing other things about the Duggars (such as their rabid hatred of gays, and the inadequacy of the education the kids were getting).  If many in the audience could see that the older Duggar girls were being exploited and that the Howlers and Lost Girls were suffering from parental neglect bordering on abuse, I bet the TLC production team saw more. But they looked the other way.

More recently, TLC took its time before cancelling the 19kids show when the scandal finally came out,  and they have been very sneaky about bringing the Duggars back on TV.   (I now know what "Counting On,"  referred to.  They were "counting on people getting tired of writing to advertisers.")  In short,  they clearly want to promote the Duggar brand, regardless of all they must know is wrong with the family.

TLC is responsible for what they put on TV.

[Becket70]

My guide lists the Jill and Jessa rerun that is on tonight as "New". Is TLC playing fast and loose with ratings numbers? Is this how she comes up with her "millions" statement? TLC never did this for The Little Couple which has the same Tuesday time slot as the Duggars. Clearly the Sunday showing is not "new".

[anotherone]

8 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I fault TLC for having given the Duggars a show in the first place.  If Oprah got a letter about the molestation, don't you think Discovery and/or TLC did also?  They are not our "moral leaders" but they don't have to cover up criminal acts and cover ups.

They went ahead with the show, though they knew about Josh, and they also connived at concealing other things about the Duggars (such as their rabid hatred of gays, and the inadequacy of the education the kids were getting).  If many in the audience could see that the older Duggar girls were being exploited and that the Howlers and Lost Girls were suffering from parental neglect bordering on abuse, I bet the TLC production team saw more. But they looked the other way.

More recently, TLC took its time before cancelling the 19kids show when the scandal finally came out,  and they have been very sneaky about bringing the Duggars back on TV.   (I now know what "Counting On,"  referred to.  They were "counting on people getting tired of writing to advertisers.")  In short,  they clearly want to promote the Duggar brand, regardless of all they must know is wrong with the family.

TLC is responsible for what they put on TV.

Not responding to an anonymous letter (assuming TLC got one) isn't covering up criminal acts. They would have to have been convicted first. And robocalls and homeschooling (if you can call it that) aren't illegal.   Anyway, I'm sure there were many shows with convicts in them (wasn't Duck Dynasty one?) and uneducated kids and no one cares too much.

Of course TLC was sneaky about bringing them back. Yes they clearly want to promote the Duggar brand.  They are a business and only want good exposure so they can make a buck, and so far what is wrong with the family is our opinion and isn't everyone's.  Unfortunately they still do have lots of followers.  But unless TLC really saw a criminal act or actual abuse, they don't really have an obligation to do anything, any more than we do.  You can argue we see "borderline abuse" by what is actually filmed but we're not all pounding down the doors of DHS just because Jana isn't leaving the house all by herself and Joseph can't multiply.

I'm certainly not trying to defend the Duggars being on TV.  I just feel blaming TLC is like shooting the messenger.  All TLC is doing is showing them to the world, and it's only helping bring attention to these cults and riling people up, which is good in my opinion.  Who is responsible is the Duggars themselves, they are the ones covering up everything, they are the ones selling out their own children..  And the viewers are responsible as well.  And unless Daniels is secretly a Quiverfull follower, TLC is only all about the money and if the money stops, Duggars will be dropped like a hot potato.  That's where all the focus should be, on the advertisers.

[chris]

59 minutes ago, Becket70 said:

My guide lists the Jill and Jessa rerun that is on tonight as "New". Is TLC playing fast and loose with ratings numbers? Is this how she comes up with her "millions" statement? TLC never did this for The Little Couple which has the same Tuesday time slot as the Duggars. Clearly the Sunday showing is not "new".

That could be..my provider (CenturyLink) is saying its new too. I think the 'bonus' footage is what makes it new again

[Mothership]

22 minutes ago, Hiddenomaha said:

That could be..my provider (CenturyLink) is saying its new too. I think the 'bonus' footage is what makes it new again

My provider calls it new, but they also show it as "Jill and Jessa Counting On-Recout".   Fancy way of saying rerun and still getting to count new viewers!

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, anotherone said:

Not responding to an anonymous letter (assuming TLC got one) isn't covering up criminal acts. They would have to have been convicted first. And robocalls and homeschooling (if you can call it that) aren't illegal.   Anyway, I'm sure there were many shows with convicts in them (wasn't Duck Dynasty one?) and uneducated kids and no one cares too much.

Of course TLC was sneaky about bringing them back. Yes they clearly want to promote the Duggar brand.  They are a business and only want good exposure so they can make a buck, and so far what is wrong with the family is our opinion and isn't everyone's.  Unfortunately they still do have lots of followers.  But unless TLC really saw a criminal act or actual abuse, they don't really have an obligation to do anything, any more than we do.  You can argue we see "borderline abuse" by what is actually filmed but we're not all pounding down the doors of DHS just because Jana isn't leaving the house all by herself and Joseph can't multiply.

I'm certainly not trying to defend the Duggars being on TV.  I just feel blaming TLC is like shooting the messenger.  All TLC is doing is showing them to the world, and it's only helping bring attention to these cults and riling people up, which is good in my opinion.  Who is responsible is the Duggars themselves, they are the ones covering up everything, they are the ones selling out their own children..  And the viewers are responsible as well.  And unless Daniels is secretly a Quiverfull follower, TLC is only all about the money and if the money stops, Duggars will be dropped like a hot potato.  That's where all the focus should be, on the advertisers.

I agree that the Duggars are responsible for everything they do/did.  But TLC is making money (and has made money from) making them look wholesome and good when they are not.  It is the same as if Walmart knowingly sells goods made cheap by slave labor in some developing country.  They have a responsibility.  

We are shaming the advertisers over the moral issue. Granted the advertisers listen to us because they are afraid of losing sales.  But they are recognizing there is a moral concern.  They are choosing to listen to the audience that says that it is wrong to promote this family over the undeniable audience of leghumpers.  The moral issue is there, but TLC has chosen to side with those who dismiss it.  

TLC had a responsibility to report the anonymous letter about the Duggars just like Oprah did.  And when the investigation confirmed that Josh had molested his sisters, TLC should have backed off from the And Counting series.  This is not about what Josh did -- he was a minor, a teen who needed help as well as accountability.  This is about the parents.  This is about exploiting the Duggar kids.  

Profit drives capitalism, but there is a moral dimension to how we make money. TLC is morally at fault here.  They are not alone or unique in exploiting children and covering up crimes.  They may not even be the worst.  But not being the only or the worst doesn't let them off the hook morally.

It is not unreasonable to hold capitalists responsible for how they choose to make their money. The efforts TLC has made to promote and protect the Duggars could have gone to finding another interesting show instead.

[anotherone]

10 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

We are shaming the advertisers over the moral issue. Granted the advertisers listen to us because they are afraid of losing sales.  But they are recognizing there is a moral concern.  They are choosing to listen to the audience that says that it is wrong to promote this family over the undeniable audience of leghumpers.  The moral issue is there, but TLC has chosen to side with those who dismiss it.  

TLC had a responsibility to report the anonymous letter about the Duggars just like Oprah did.  And when the investigation confirmed that Josh had molested his sisters, TLC should have backed off from the And Counting series.  

Advertisers are listening because they don't want to lose sales.  Some also do it for a moral reason.  But they don't have to, they can choose to and that's great.  We can only vote with our wallets.

You're assuming TLC did get a letter like Oprah.  Maybe they didn't, we don't know.  I was thinking, maybe when the molestation came out, they were hoping that they will get all the dirt, see Josh go to counseling, have the first crack at the 5th girl (non-sister), etc.  Maybe they didn't realize that the coverup by JB and M would be so severe.  I still kind of see TLC in the place of a reporter covering war crimes or something, do they have a responsibility to intervene, or to not report because somehow the person might be seen in a good light.

The worst think I think TLC did was that stupid special on molestation.  What if molestation victims were watching it and saw the victim blaming and stuff.  That to me is the worst thing they did.  Let them show the Duggars and their messed up family, that doesn't bother me as much as that special.

 

[lascuba]

2 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I fault TLC for having given the Duggars a show in the first place.  If Oprah got a letter about the molestation, don't you think Discovery and/or TLC did also?  They are not our "moral leaders" but they don't have to cover up criminal acts and cover ups.

They went ahead with the show, though they knew about Josh, and they also connived at concealing other things about the Duggars (such as their rabid hatred of gays, and the inadequacy of the education the kids were getting).  If many in the audience could see that the older Duggar girls were being exploited and that the Howlers and Lost Girls were suffering from parental neglect bordering on abuse, I bet the TLC production team saw more. But they looked the other way.

More recently, TLC took its time before cancelling the 19kids show when the scandal finally came out,  and they have been very sneaky about bringing the Duggars back on TV.   (I now know what "Counting On,"  referred to.  They were "counting on people getting tired of writing to advertisers.")  In short,  they clearly want to promote the Duggar brand, regardless of all they must know is wrong with the family.

TLC is responsible for what they put on TV.

Even if they never got a letter, considering the timing of filming of the first Duggar specials's it's highly unlikely that Discovery didn't know about the abuse. Yes, the Duggars played cover-up later, but it's still astounding to me how open they were with people about the molestation when it happened...church leaders, that cop friend of Jim Bob's, they even made a public display of the girls forgiving Josh at their church. I think Jim Bob would have disclosed the molestations to TLC--maybe not the full extent of it, but I can't see him keeping quiet. TLC would have likely gotten wind of things anyway, and while he might have downplayed it, if TLC asked outright, he would have answered. 

TLC was enamored with the idea of have this weird mega family on their network, and since Jim Bob had been going around trying to get media attention for his wife's fecundity for years, TLC didn't bother looking further. Sure, they featured other huge families for a while, but the Duggars were the first and the most willing to be in front of the camera. TLC was as arrogant as the family thinking they were in the clear because of the sealed records. 

[Dandruff]

Haven't Child & Family Services been checking in with the Duggars for some time?  If this is the case, then how how likely is it that TLC never crossed paths with them or otherwise found out that there were visits?  TLC may not have known exactly what happened, but I'd be surprised if they didn't know that something did.

[anotherone]

26 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

Haven't Child & Family Services been checking in with the Duggars for some time?  If this is the case, then how how likely is it that TLC never crossed paths with them or otherwise found out that there were visits?  TLC may not have known exactly what happened, but I'd be surprised if they didn't know that something did.

But even if they crossed paths, what is TLC's responsibility? To not air them?  What about the sister wives show?  I don't know anything about that show except the name. I thought multiple wives were illegal, or just in some states?  Should there be a moral obligation to not show those people on TV? 

Believe me, I still think the Duggars are despicable, but the silver lining is now so many people know that those kind of cults exist, and to what extent, whereas about 9 months ago no one except followers really cared.  Remember, the show didn't cause the problem, in fact media attention (broadcasting their horrible views on gays) prompted them to get exposed by InTouch.

I'm sort of still on the fence about the show continuing to air.  On the one hand I hate the coverup, but then again it seems every show they keep sticking their foot in their collective mouth, and keep looking worse and worse.  I'm guessing one by one more leghumpers are getting converted to "haters."

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, anotherone said:

Advertisers are listening because they don't want to lose sales.  Some also do it for a moral reason.  But they don't have to, they can choose to and that's great.  We can only vote with our wallets.

You're assuming TLC did get a letter like Oprah.  Maybe they didn't, we don't know.  I was thinking, maybe when the molestation came out, they were hoping that they will get all the dirt, see Josh go to counseling, have the first crack at the 5th girl (non-sister), etc.  Maybe they didn't realize that the coverup by JB and M would be so severe.  I still kind of see TLC in the place of a reporter covering war crimes or something, do they have a responsibility to intervene, or to not report because somehow the person might be seen in a good light.

The worst think I think TLC did was that stupid special on molestation.  What if molestation victims were watching it and saw the victim blaming and stuff.  That to me is the worst thing they did.  Let them show the Duggars and their messed up family, that doesn't bother me as much as that special.

Yes. As I said, advertisers are afraid of losing sales. They are afraid of losing sales to the folks who are morally turned off by the Duggar parents and what they represent. My point is that TLC has consistently bargained on the moral issue not mattering.  So I think they are at fault.

Yes, consumers can make their positions "heard" by threatening not to purchase whatever an advertiser is selling.  But the real threat in a case like this is that the advertisers worry that their "brand" will be associated with the Duggar brand. The chance of selling (let's say) cell phones to the "millions and millions" of leghumpers is less important to them of having the Duggar "haters" publicly link their company name to child molestation.  That tells us that advertisers are recognizing the impact of the moral issue.

I do not agree that all that TLC has done is "report" what the Duggars are doing/have done the same way a reporter might document war crimes.  They have deliberately not shown the full picture, and they have created specific situation, scenes, etc.  Real "reporting" does not (if it is ethical) stage the "news" or suppress what will turn viewers against the main focus of the report.

But l don't disagree that TLC is just trying to make money. And I am not arguing that they are monsters. I just said that they are responsible for promoting the Duggars and facilitating (if not actively participating in) the myth that the Duggars are wholesome Christians, etc.

 

[Arete]

To the poster who compared TLC to a war correspondent;  no, these two things are not at all alike.  A war correspondent does not watch soldiers rape women and then have dinner with them and their warlord.  Just as TLC was not merely recording the Duggars in their native habitat.

From the very beginning, TLC was scripting episodes.  They were hands on manipulating the Duggar family image to shore up a lie.  They had knowledge of criminal abuse (come on, the same letter that went to Oprah went to them) .  The fact that Josh was never brought before the judicial system does not render his behavior any less criminal and abusive.  All it means is that he got away with it, and TLC helped to keep it from the public.

And there is the final difference between TLC and reporters.   Reports report and shine light on crimes: these women were raped, those children were killed, this school was hit.  They do not help warlords and countries cover up crimes.  TLC chose to actively help the Duggars propagate a lie.   They were not merely recording them in the wild.

[quiverofdoubt]

I've always wondered how much the crew saw in the process of filming. What never got on tape or on air. Things they noticed or picked up on. Things they can't talk about because of non disclosure agreements and contracts. I know there have been rumors reportedly from ex crew. But I would love an in depth interview with some of the long time crew 

[ClaraOswin]

So Sierra and the Duggars threw a "surprise" baby shower for that Tacos4Life woman recently for the cameras.

But it looks like she had another baby shower today. Probably for all her actual friends/family.

[CreationMuseumSeasonPass]

I'm a journalist. War correspondents have risked being kidnapped, beheaded by ISIS and sexual assaults on the streets of Cairo during the Egyptian revolution. I know the original comment wasn't meant to offend, but please REFRAIN from comparing TLC executives to people who literally put their LIVES on the line to shine the light of truth in a dark world.

[anotherone]

Look, all I'm saying is the "crime" was committed by the Duggars.  The Duggars were the ones who covered it up. TLC possibly had knowledge of an alleged crime, from an anonymous letter, and didn't follow up on it. Which is no where near as bad as the Duggars themselves.  After all, Oprah didn't even follow up on it, she just cancelled the show and that was it.  I just don't understand why people expect so much out of a TV network.

[EmCatlyn]

26 minutes ago, anotherone said:

Look, all I'm saying is the "crime" was committed by the Duggars.  The Duggars were the ones who covered it up. TLC possibly had knowledge of an alleged crime, from an anonymous letter, and didn't follow up on it. Which is no where near as bad as the Duggars themselves.  After all, Oprah didn't even follow up on it, she just cancelled the show and that was it.  I just don't understand why people expect so much out of a TV network.

I don't "expect" anything of a TV network.  But when a TV network (or any other business) benefits from hiding or distorting something, I hold them responsible for their part in a deception of the public.

If that deception includes concealing and/or minimizing something that most people in our society consider wrong, then I am especially critical.  Yes, the Duggar parents bear the bulk of the blame, but TLC helped create the deception and is trying very hard to keep it going.

But I can see your point that the network may not have felt it was their business to report a suspicion or rumor or actual information that Josh had molested his sisters.  My point is that it is a shame the network didn't feel that way.  

 

[anotherone]

25 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I don't "expect" anything of a TV network.  But when a TV network (or any other business) benefits from hiding or distorting something, I hold them responsible for their part in a deception of the public.

If that deception includes concealing and/or minimizing something that most people in our society consider wrong, then I am especially critical.  Yes, the Duggar parents bear the bulk of the blame, but TLC helped create the deception and is trying very hard to keep it going.

But I can see your point that the network may not have felt it was their business to report a suspicion or rumor or actual information that Josh had molested his sisters.  My point is that it is a shame the network didn't feel that way.  

 

If it was only the letter then it was only a rumor.  They would get sued for spreading that rumor.  What exactly would they report? Hey someone said you molested your sister 10 years ago and they wouldn't even give their name, let's get you arrested? (Actual information of course is a different story.)   

If you think that about TLC, then shouldn't Oprah be boycotted too for not following up on the rumor?  She is the only one we are really sure that got the letter.  Maybe she should have done more than just cancel the show, but no one's holding her responsible.   Seriously, now that I think about it, I wonder why she didn't do more.  She could have done some type of investigation.

[SilverBeach]

15 minutes ago, anotherone said:

 

If you think that about TLC, then shouldn't Oprah be boycotted too for not following up on the rumor?  She is the only one we are really sure that got the letter.  Maybe she should have done more than just cancel the show, but no one's holding her responsible.   Seriously, now that I think about it, I wonder why she didn't do more.  She could have done some type of investigation.

Oprah could not have done an investigation as she is not law enforcement or CPS. The letter was sent to Arkansas authorities, so she did do something. This is all back there in the Josh molestation thread.

Interestingly, TLC hasn't snuck Honey Boo Boo back on tee vee. Not as attractive, I guess.

[EmCatlyn]

52 minutes ago, anotherone said:

If it was only the letter then it was only a rumor.  They would get sued for spreading that rumor.  What exactly would they report? Hey someone said you molested your sister 10 years ago and they wouldn't even give their name, let's get you arrested? (Actual information of course is a different story.)   

If you think that about TLC, then shouldn't Oprah be boycotted too for not following up on the rumor?  She is the only one we are really sure that got the letter.  Maybe she should have done more than just cancel the show, but no one's holding her responsible.   Seriously, now that I think about it, I wonder why she didn't do more.  She could have done some type of investigation.

From what I have read, Oprah did two things: (1) She didn't have the Duggars on the show and (2) she passed the letter on to Arkansas Child Protection Services so they could investigate.  My understanding is that calling CPS is the right thing to do in such circumstances. 

I am not suggesting we boycott TLC.   I merely gave it as my opinion that TLC has some responsibility.  

 .  

 

 

[Purrl]

About 20 years ago we began attending homeschool conventions - usually 2 or 3 a year, at least one of those each year in Texas and an occasional one in Arkansas as they are states which border ours. I was somewhat familiar with the Duggars, but really didn't pay enough attention to know them from the other families with a trail of children all dressed similarly. They usually spoke to or attended the Quiverful and religion-based workshops while we (my husband or friends and I) attended the more curriculum-based and organizational or time-management workshops.

That being said, when the news broke of the molestations, I remember being so surprised that TLC wouldn't have known about the allegations because I knew it had happened. Or at least, that there were rumors of it having happened, and I wasn't offering them a TV show! Wouldn't you think TLC would have done some research into the family before giving them a show?

I didn't know, however, who it was that he had molested. I think the fact that it was his sisters explains a lot of the Duggar weirdness. Why the boys all sleep in one room - harder for one to sneak out without being discovered. Why the girls all sleep in one room - protection of sorts. Why there are buddies, aside from making it easier on Michelle - someone to tell if Josh should approach a younger child. And why the older boys don't buddy. Why they are not allowed to go anywhere alone, date, etc - if you can't trust your own big brother then who can you trust?