Jessa, Ben, and Spurgeon part 5

[Criscat]

Continuing on....

[socalrules]

I just don't see them moving to Chicago and Jessa being ok with Ben being at school all day. He will have the opportunity to make new friends and hang with girls who are not as fundy as Jessa. Just a brief look at their website and you see people in shorts and women in pants. It doesn't seem to be as crazy controlling like other fundy colleges, which may make it seem too liberal for Jessa. I get the idea that she isn't comfortable with people who are not on the same level of fundy crazy as she is.

I can't see Jessa being happy with Ben spending time with people that aren't like her and who may become his friends, but not hers. Especially ambitious women. If Ben really does want a career in the ministry, it may be hard for Jessa to see him spending so much time with like minded individuals and she is excluded from the group.

[nastyhobbitses]

47 minutes ago, socalrules said:

I just don't see them moving to Chicago and Jessa being ok with Ben being at school all day. He will have the opportunity to make new friends and hang with girls who are not as fundy as Jessa. Just a brief look at their website and you see people in shorts and women in pants. It doesn't seem to be as crazy controlling like other fundy colleges, which may make it seem too liberal for Jessa. I get the idea that she isn't comfortable with people who are not on the same level of fundy crazy as she is.

I can't see Jessa being happy with Ben spending time with people that aren't like her and who may become his friends, but not hers. Especially ambitious women. If Ben really does want a career in the ministry, it may be hard for Jessa to see him spending so much time with like minded individuals and she is excluded from the group.

Not to mention what she must think and feel about moving to a big city filled with women who might tempt Ben after what her brother did.

[OodOnTheLoo]

And waaaaaaaaay out of her intellectual league, people that actually think about what the scriptures mean, not just parrot what they have been told (by jimBoob).   

 

I was was sure Jessa was going to get a Jinger and get the hell out on Tontitown but she seems blissfully content with what she has going on.  Of course, she has been handed so much after years ago of semi-servitude she may just still be in the honeymoon phase.

I will be watching with much interest if the move...and which sister is sent with.

[Sundaymorning]

Well, if Ben really wants to be a preacher, Jessa will have get used to the fact that he will have to spend time with other people, while she will be stuck at home all day, bearing kids and homeschooling their eleventy children.

I do think Jessa is content with her life right now, and really, why shouldn't she be? Thanks to TLC, she does have a very comfortable life compared to other fundies, and a lot more freedom and peace than she had at the TTH.

[nst]

she maybe content in her own world- but that kitchen scene really bothers me

plus the fact when she goes into the real world she will have to adjust and I get the impression she won't like that

[zee_four]

ClaraOswin is your son's therapist using ASL or another signing system? (My HS bff was Deaf so I became fluent in ASL then studied Deaf ed in undergrad and formerly taught special needs preschoolers)

[quiverofdoubt]

7 hours ago, socalrules said:

I just don't see them moving to Chicago and Jessa being ok with Ben being at school all day. He will have the opportunity to make new friends and hang with girls who are not as fundy as Jessa. Just a brief look at their website and you see people in shorts and women in pants. It doesn't seem to be as crazy controlling like other fundy colleges, which may make it seem too liberal for Jessa. I get the idea that she isn't comfortable with people who are not on the same level of fundy crazy as she is.

I can't see Jessa being happy with Ben spending time with people that aren't like her and who may become his friends, but not hers. Especially ambitious women. If Ben really does want a career in the ministry, it may be hard for Jessa to see him spending so much time with like minded individuals and she is excluded from the group.

I get the sense she's uncomfortable around everybody. She seems stilted and awkward with her own family. She just seems uncomfortable in her own skin.

[nst]

3 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I get the sense she's uncomfortable around everybody. She seems stilted and awkward with her own family. She just seems uncomfortable in her own skin.

with certain people she doesn't seem comfortable - she is special crazy 

as for being uncomfortable around strangers and strangers who don't believe what she believes - I doubt she would be able to fake it 

[VelociRapture]

8 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I get the sense she's uncomfortable around everybody. She seems stilted and awkward with her own family. She just seems uncomfortable in her own skin.

I think all the Duggar offspring are to a certain extent. Even the talkative ones like Jill come across as awkward and uncertain.

I think a lot of that has to do with the lifestyle and parenting... But a lot of it may be due to Josh's assaults. The victims were young and impressionable - I find it very possible that the assaults and subsequent investigation and coverup did a lot of lasting damage to all the kids (especially the victims.)

I mean, growing up so isolated and then being subjected to abuse and questioning and denial of valid emotions and media backlash last year... It makes sense to me that they may be so uncomfortable around people not exactly like them. And possibly uncomfortable around their families - people who know what happened and did jack shit about it.

ETA: Please note in not stating this is exactly why they're awkward around others. I don't know them or their thoughts - this is just a guess based off the little evidence available at why they may be awkward to the extreme they are at times. 

[quiverofdoubt]

57 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I think all the Duggar offspring are to a certain extent. Even the talkative ones like Jill come across as awkward and uncertain.

I think a lot of that has to do with the lifestyle and parenting... But a lot of it may be due to Josh's assaults. The victims were young and impressionable - I find it very possible that the assaults and subsequent investigation and coverup did a lot of lasting damage to all the kids (especially the victims.)

I mean, growing up so isolated and then being subjected to abuse and questioning and denial of valid emotions and media backlash last year... It makes sense to me that they may be so uncomfortable around people not exactly like them. And possibly uncomfortable around their families - people who know what happened and did jack shit about it.

ETA: Please note in not stating this is exactly why they're awkward around others. I don't know them or their thoughts - this is just a guess based off the little evidence available at why they may be awkward to the extreme they are at times. 

Very true. I guess I was being a bit glib.  I don't think any of these kids can be fully comfortable in their own heads, or feel relaxed or free to be themselves.  They grew up in a home where every action, word, thought or feeling had to be explained/confessed to mom and dad and to jesus. They probably put everything through several filters before acting on it. Is it jesus like? is it manly/lady like? will it please mom and dad? will it get me into trouble?  They couldn't relax around their parents who correct even the most normal, healthy behaviors and feelings. They couldn't relax around siblings because they may tattle (and for your own good too!). they couldn't relax in their own heads because they were trained to confess their thought life and "hearts", and if they tried to hide something the guilt and fear of hell would eat at them.

On top of that any emotion that came up was bottled up deep and replaced with an acceptable one. Children raised that way not only don't know how to express their emotions, but don't even recognize them.  They are human and have the full range of emotions. (*except maybe josh, if he is in fact a sociopath, but that's pure speculation).  They just can't recognize them.  They may have the physiological signs associated with anger, hurt, sadness, disappointment and anxiety but are too afraid even in their own mind to acknowledge them. And even if they did they wouldn't have a name for it.

My father grew up in a fairly oppressive and abusive household. Even in his 50's/60's he doesn't recognize his own emotional states. Everyone around him will be acutely aware of his anger or sadness, but if you say anything about it he'll lose it on you.  He can be shaking, red in the face and showing every body language sign for anger and aggression, while yelling at you about how he's just fine, not angry, and why won't we just leave him the f* alone?  

 

Long story short: no way these kids are remotely comfortable in their own skin, their own homes, or even around their own family/kind.  You have to be comfortable with yourself before that can happen.  They are probably just unaware of it because that's just the way it's always been.

[lascuba]

Jessa, for all her attitude, strikes me as someone who's headstrong and opinionated only with her family and people she knows really well (and on the internet where there's a wall between her and everyone else), but quiet and withdrawn outside that circle. I was like that as a kid...a terror at home, total teacher's pet at school. At a parent-teacher conference, my parents seriously said, "You have our kid confused with someone else" when my teacher praised me. 

The pressures of the show probably exacerbate that tendency, because she's always aware that she has a family-image to uphold. Look at the difference in her between the Megyn Kelly interview and the sex abuse special (which I think was the first tv appearance after the interview). She was pissed in that interview, defiant. And when she got blowback for that, she did a complete 180 and was all smiles and soft voice during that special. And now she just comes across as stilted and uncomfortable all the time, because how she's "supposed to" act is at completely odds with who she is. That's the main reason I peg Jessa as one of the least likely to leave the cult. She just can't be comfortable with new people who don't speak ATI fundie, both because they're a bunch of sinning heathens, and because deep down, she really just wants to be liked and thinks she won't be if she's at her full ignorant fanatic asshole self. 

[Four is Enough]

I agree with quiverof doubt.. and lascuba.. these people still have no real control over their emotions because they were never permitted to recognize, accept, and deal with emotions. That is very sad, IMO, and will cripple their futures far into their futures.

[2manyKidzzz]

Did I miss where Benye is thinking of going to Chicago to the MoodyBlues Bible institute in person? Or is this just wicked conjecture for fun. I can't personally see Jessa in Chicago. But I could be wrong. 

[Eater of Worlds]

There's a new blind item out that Ben's been cheating for six months with another person from the Duggar church.  Apparently the sex is so boring that he has to get his rocks off somewhere else.  I don't think that moving to Chicago is going to cause issues, because apparently issues already exist.

 I used to walk past that Moody Bible place and wonder about it, before I knew of the world of fundies.

[Casserole]

17 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Did I miss where Benye is thinking of going to Chicago to the MoodyBlues Bible institute in person? Or is this just wicked conjecture for fun. I can't personally see Jessa in Chicago. But I could be wrong. 

 

from what I can tell on their website without requesting more info... the Moody Bible Institute distance learning program only allows the first year of studies to be done online and then the students attend the Chicago campus for the second year. 

 

So if he plans on completing the degree, they'd eventually have to go to Chicago. 

[2manyKidzzz]

9 minutes ago, Casserole said:

 

from what I can tell on their website without requesting more info... the Moody Bible Institute distance learning program only allows the first year of studies to be done online and then the students attend the Chicago campus for the second year. 

 

So if he plans on completing the degree, they'd eventually have to go to Chicago. 

Okay, thanks so much. So, I wonder how this will go. She could easily be pregnant. What about their supposed adoption plans. So sad to think he will try to guide people in their spiritual lives, but of course, in their world it is all control and not really guidance, IMO.

15 minutes ago, Eater of Worlds said:

There's a new blind item out that Ben's been cheating for six months with another person from the Duggar church.  Apparently the sex is so boring that he has to get his rocks off somewhere else.  I don't think that moving to Chicago is going to cause issues, because apparently issues already exist.

 I used to walk past that Moody Bible place and wonder about it, before I knew of the world of fundies.

This is weird.....I personally do not believe it. But he does seem in over his head. A wife, a baby and no real job. But soon to be a preacher, maybe. All so strange. To me. 

[guitar_villain]

20 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Did I miss where Benye is thinking of going to Chicago to the MoodyBlues Bible institute in person? Or is this just wicked conjecture for fun. I can't personally see Jessa in Chicago. But I could be wrong. 

Interestingly, one of my favorite authors, Bart Ehrman went to Moody where he began studying the Bible in its original languages.  He went on to religious studies at Wheaton and eventually got his doctorate in divinity from Princeton.

He's now one of the leading experts in textual criticism of the Bible and the historical basis of the New Testament.  He also went from serious fundamentalism to agnostic atheism in the process- once he began actually reading the bible and interpreting what it says in the original texts rather than relying on what pastors told him about the translations he found he couldn't accept it as literal truth any more.

I have a strong suspicion that Moody doesn't use his New testament textbook even if he is an alum....

[sawasdee]

Cradle Catholic turned mostly atheist (!), I had never even looked at a Bible commentary until I started reading FJ. Began exploring, and Bart Ehrman was an amazing discovery for me - I wish I could remember which FJer recommended him, to say thank you!

[Mercer]

10 hours ago, Sundaymorning said:

Well, if Ben really wants to be a preacher, Jessa will have get used to the fact that he will have to spend time with other people, while she will be stuck at home all day, bearing kids and homeschooling their eleventy children.

I wonder how much she actually would have to deal with that. Ben has made it fairly clear that he wants to be a preacher, not a pastor. He wants to communicate his message (and seems to like the internet as a medium) but doesn't seem to have any interest in providing pastoral care or tending to the (often not very glamorous) needs of a congregation. I could very well see this as a way of promoting his online presence, in which case his life may not change much at all when/if he completes his education.

Which brings me to...

3 hours ago, Casserole said:

So if he plans on completing the degree, they'd eventually have to go to Chicago. 

Although as I said in a previous post, I could actually see the Seewalds moving to Chicago (and staying in their insular fundie social bubble there,) I can't help but wonder if he'll actually finish. Duggars don't have a great track record for school completion, and although Ben isn't a Duggar by blood, he seems to fit right in with their lifestyle. He may just do a year or so online, then say he "studied at Moody" without earning the degree. It wouldn't make that much difference in his ability to post videos and blogs whether he graduated or not, and Duggardom seems completely fine with half-assing things like that.

[ksgranola1]

Jessa has a pic on her FB of Ben sitting in a comfy chair at a coffee shoppe & he is very into a textbook in his lap.

Michaela Bates lives in Chicago but I can't see Jessa being that far from TTH for very long. Anna got right into it when they moved to DC. She joined  a mommy & me group & a church. I hope Jessa will be that proactive.

[Jucifer]

7 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

Very true. I guess I was being a bit glib.  I don't think any of these kids can be fully comfortable in their own heads, or feel relaxed or free to be themselves.  They grew up in a home where every action, word, thought or feeling had to be explained/confessed to mom and dad and to jesus. They probably put everything through several filters before acting on it. Is it jesus like? is it manly/lady like? will it please mom and dad? will it get me into trouble?  They couldn't relax around their parents who correct even the most normal, healthy behaviors and feelings. They couldn't relax around siblings because they may tattle (and for your own good too!). they couldn't relax in their own heads because they were trained to confess their thought life and "hearts", and if they tried to hide something the guilt and fear of hell would eat at them.

On top of that any emotion that came up was bottled up deep and replaced with an acceptable one. Children raised that way not only don't know how to express their emotions, but don't even recognize them.  They are human and have the full range of emotions. (*except maybe josh, if he is in fact a sociopath, but that's pure speculation).  They just can't recognize them.  They may have the physiological signs associated with anger, hurt, sadness, disappointment and anxiety but are too afraid even in their own mind to acknowledge them. And even if they did they wouldn't have a name for it.

My father grew up in a fairly oppressive and abusive household. Even in his 50's/60's he doesn't recognize his own emotional states. Everyone around him will be acutely aware of his anger or sadness, but if you say anything about it he'll lose it on you.  He can be shaking, red in the face and showing every body language sign for anger and aggression, while yelling at you about how he's just fine, not angry, and why won't we just leave him the f* alone?  

 

Long story short: no way these kids are remotely comfortable in their own skin, their own homes, or even around their own family/kind.  You have to be comfortable with yourself before that can happen.  They are probably just unaware of it because that's just the way it's always been.

When I went through my first round of post-fundie counseling I found it hard to even connect words to what I was feeling (sad, happy, eft.) It's hard to explain but I couldn't connect the word 'sadness' to what I was feeling. I didn't have the vocabulary for emotions.  It was either what makes Jesus happy or what makes Jesus unhappy. Black and white thinking.

it sounds so odd, but that's  what happens when you're raised fundie.

[socalrules]

I agree @Mercer. There are so many true scholars of the Bible, priests, ministers, etc. Real people who not only care about spreading the word of God but who also want to counsel their flock, even when it is not religion related. So many are out in the community trying to help in any way they can, whether someone needs food, money or just a kind ear to listen to them. These are people who want to help the whole person, not just the spiritual soul. I don't think Ben actually cares about anyone else. I think he just wants a soap box that lets him feed his ego. I don't think he wants to truly study and analyze the Bible. He just wants to throw out verses he thinks backs up whatever sad point he is trying to make. 

The Monsignor at my church had been there almost thirty years. He knows his congregation, not just by name but what they do, whether they have been sick, what sports the kids play and what interests people have. I'm have heard him have conversation after conversation with people that have nothing to do with religion. I have watched him have friendly conversations with people who sometimes come to the church that are having emotional/psychological problems at the moment and he is able to calm them because sometimes they just need someone to treat them like a person who has value. This is what true leaders of a church will do, regardless of their religious affiliation. It's why people want to come back every Sunday. I don't see Ben doing any of that because I think Ben likes to revel in his religious superiority. I think that is one of the reasons Jessa like Ben. He is just like her in that way. 

[EmCatlyn]

16 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

Not to mention what she must think and feel about moving to a big city filled with women who might tempt Ben after what her brother did.

I am not at all sure they would have to move to Chicago if Ben continues his degree at Moody.  I got the impression you could get the degrees online.  There is a program for "first year online" which seems to be aimed at students who will spend the next three years on campus.  That is, the program is for freshmen.  But Ben must be entering Moody as a junior, since he has an Associate degree.

We don't know that he has been admitted to a degree program. He may be taking a few courses as a non-degree-seeking student. But I think if he does well and decides to continue he may be able to finish the BS online.  Also, there are other campuses than the main one in Chicago.  For example, there is one in Texas.

3 hours ago, sawasdee said:

Cradle Catholic turned mostly atheist (!), I had never even looked at a Bible commentary until I started reading FJ. Began exploring, and Bart Ehrman was an amazing discovery for me - I wish I could remember which FJer recommended him, to say thank you!

I love Ehrman's books.  He seems objective and well-informed.

[Sundaymorning]

2 hours ago, Mercer said:

I wonder how much she actually would have to deal with that. Ben has made it fairly clear that he wants to be a preacher, not a pastor. He wants to communicate his message (and seems to like the internet as a medium) but doesn't seem to have any interest in providing pastoral care or tending to the (often not very glamorous) needs of a congregation. I could very well see this as a way of promoting his online presence, in which case his life may not change much at all when/if he completes his education.

The question is if his online ministry would make enough money to provide for Jessa and their eleventy children? Unless he somehow manages to become a huge youtube star with good earnings, he will probably have to do speaking engagements in order to make ends meet. And to get those gigs, he will have to mingle with the fundieland decisions makers and network. I doubt it will be enough to just sit behind the computer. Maybe as long as their TLC show is on, but I doubt that it will be around a decade from now.