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Cleopatra7
47 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

I wonder if in this context the original writer meant God the Father and not their biological father.    There at least was a thing among some evangelicals to refer to God the Father as Daddy based on the texts in scripture that call God "Abba".

In the context of Gothardism, "giving your heart to your father" means allowing your biological father/patriarch/headship complete control of your life, including your inner thoughts. You don't have control of anything in your life, not even over your body or your mind. This is why JB and Michelle mention how their kids "confess" their sins to them. Unlike confessing to a Catholic priest, however, there's no expectation of privacy. Somehow I can see JB and Michelle mocking their kids' problems, real or imagined, behind their backs like how David Miscavige supposedly laughs at the auditing reports of celebrity Scientologists, which are also supposed to be secret, but aren't.

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I told a friend who held a leadership position in the military about alert, and he called it "creepy, paramilitary shit that the military hates". Evidently these civilian guerrilla things are not view

He's the only Duggar boy with a decent head of hair and they shaved it all off. Oi.

I am not too worried about Gothard's uneducated, untrained, incompetent army. Members of an army don't only need to be able to follow orders, they need to be able to lead in times of crisis. They need

allthegoodnamesrgone
On 3/26/2016 at 4:48 PM, Jucifer said:

Jana once made cardboard cutouts of a nativity scene, I think.  

That's interesting about the lack of refrigerator pictures.  We don't have kids but we have the neighbors' kids' artwork on our refrigerator.  We even have a picture that one of them drew in our living room.  I love kiddie art. ;)

@Bethella, I didn't see that episode but I made a robot out of boxes as a kid. :)

The music is very controlled, normally done in a group and something they can do in front of people. Art is much more personal, and individual, since the kids are not allowed to be personal or individuals, I can see why they would discourage it beyond family crafts that are pre-planned by an adult. 

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quiverofdoubt

Do these people have a functional definition of heart? I'm assuming they don't mean the big muscle group in their left ribcage cavity that has 4 chambers and pumps oxygenated blood to the body, and is the thing JB will require bypass on if he keeps eating tater tot casserole all the time.  

So it's not a literal thing, but they talk as if it is. Is your heart "all of your feelings"? is it your thought life? is it an attachment to a person? WHAT is it??

I get the feeling from the way the girls talk that they've never actually considered it.  They've just learned the lines "giving away pieces of your heart" and "know your child's heart" or whatever, and don't pause to consider what they even mean by that. Sharing your feelings with someone doesn't make them go away, or gone, or not a part of you anymore.

They talk about "a love that multiplies" with more kids, but then act like they will lose actual pieces of themselves if they get attached in any way to someone outside the family.  The fear mongering is real in the duggar household.

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choralcrusader8613
12 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

So it's not a literal thing, but they talk as if it is. Is your heart "all of your feelings"? is it your thought life? is it an attachment to a person? WHAT is it??

Yes. All of that. In Growing Up Duggar, they list at least some of the questions that JB and Michelle ask them during meetings that they have with each and every child, and one of them (they say for older kids) is "How is your thought life going?"

When I read "keeping your child's heart", I take that to mean that you mold them so that they depend on you for everything, down to their own deepest beliefs, because Mom and Dad are always smarter than the kids and know what's best for them. :roll:

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quiverofdoubt
3 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

Yes. All of that. In Growing Up Duggar, they list at least some of the questions that JB and Michelle ask them during meetings that they have with each and every child, and one of them (they say for older kids) is "How is your thought life going?"

When I read "keeping your child's heart", I take that to mean that you mold them so that they depend on you for everything, down to their own deepest beliefs, because Mom and Dad are always smarter than the kids and know what's best for them. :roll:

No wonder they don't encourage reading. They may discover books like 1984 and realize how creepy it is to be asked that question. by anybody. ick!  And if they read a few books the kids may discover the nasty, controlling nature of the whole "keep their hearts" idea. It's not to keep them safe as the kids are led to believe.  It's to keep them under their parents control, and terrified to open up to anybody else. They can't really make close connections to anyone outside the family, whether friendship or professional, because to do that means to be honest and open and share feelings and thoughts, willingly.  Which is "giving away your heart". so the only people they can have a real meaningful heart to heart/deep conversation with, ever, are their parents and future spouses.

This also helps protect the parents quite a bit. If the kids are scared to share their thoughts, feelings, ideas, home life, etc with outsiders, than less likely that things get reported to the authorities.  Or for their kids to talk openly with other kids about things, and discover that oh hey, not everyone does xyz, not all parents act like this. Maybe something isn't right at home...

No, jb and michelle have to manipulate, abuse, and control, every aspect of these kids lives for as long as possible. The kids think they are being protected while they are being harmed, and jb and m are the ones being protected.

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LawsonBatesEgo
6 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

After I discovered the concept of a purity ball, I literally called my dad and thanked him for not asking me to let him creepily micromanage my adult romantic life. I mean my parents have always been very gender progressive, so I don't think the idea ever even crossed his mind. He actually seemed more creeped out by the concept than I was!

I was at my parents house when the SUV episode came on and my Dad had the exact same reaction to the whole concept of a "virtue ball" that Olivia Benson did........disgust and confusion mixed with a good dose of 'wait.....people actually do this as at thing?'. 

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librarychick

Wow! Just fell down the ALERT rabbit hole. Again I say wow! The "application" for the men and the STEP application  for women are pretty intrusive. This program is indoctrination at its finest. I am firmly convinced that the "disaster preparedness training" is simply an added feature of the brainwashing. The main focus of this joint is either brainwash a person or reprogram the ones that dared step out of line. It's disgusting in my opinion.

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nastyhobbitses
2 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I was at my parents house when the SUV episode came on and my Dad had the exact same reaction to the whole concept of a "virtue ball" that Olivia Benson did........disgust and confusion mixed with a good dose of 'wait.....people actually do this as at thing?'. 

My dad found out about them from the documentary The Purity Myth. He thought they were really creepy, but then proceeded to joke about taking me and my sister to one. I think that the purity balls/a lot of fundie culture pervert father-daughter relationships. I have a very close relationship with my dad, and nothing creeps me out more than these semi-incestuous events and actions by a lot of fundie dads. I think it's the control element; if my dad gave me a hug at the altar at my wedding, it would be sweet and reflective of his important role in my life, but Gil kissing Michael before "letting" her kiss Brandon was so, so icky because it had this subtext of "this is the last moment that I fully own you and your body".

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Sundaymorning
On 25.3.2016 at 0:36 AM, Bad Wolf said:

We don't have to worry about the Duggar boys joining the real military. The army is downsizing its captains who graduated from West Point. My son got his master's degree on shore duty, and there were 6 enlisted men getting theirs. Today's military wants educated people, not little SOTDRT Duggar boys. Unless things change.

I laughed out loud at the thought of a Duggar son joining the real military!

Both Austria and Switzerland have a compulsory military service for men (it's voluntary for women), so I know a lot of people who were/are in the army (including my brother), and I've heard a lot of reports over the years from different people. If the US Army is anything like that, they are as wordly (nike!!) as it gets.

In the army, the Duggarlings would have to deal with a lot of different people from various backgrounds. Most of them would probably be the "wrong kind of" Christians, or have a different religion altogether, or even be ebil atheists. They could, oh the horror!, encounter women and would have to work with them without any chaperones present, and, even worse, those ebil gays don't have to hide in the closet anymore :pearlclutching:. In their free time, the soldiers like to listen to heathen music, talk about all kinds of things including girls and sex (nike!!) and also like to have a beer or two. Honestly, I'd feel sorry for a Duggar trapped in the army, they would be the butt of jokes.

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blessalessi
5 hours ago, librarychick said:

Wow! Just fell down the ALERT rabbit hole. Again I say wow! The "application" for the men and the STEP application  for women are pretty intrusive. This program is indoctrination at its finest. I am firmly convinced that the "disaster preparedness training" is simply an added feature of the brainwashing. The main focus of this joint is either brainwash a person or reprogram the ones that dared step out of line. It's disgusting in my opinion.

The application info recommends memorising 1 Peter and doing physical fitness training as prep for camp.

1 Peter is all about submitting to authority and suffering for the sake of "good", because the end times are near.

It sounds like the worst form of military brainwashing. Terrifying.

Off-topic question: does anyone remember if the Maxwells use ATI materials?  I wonder if Christopher Max was thinking of ALERT when he initially wanted to become a paramedic? ALERT would probably feel like Summer Camp compared to life in Maxhell.  

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quiverofdoubt

So, can anyone off the street join ALERT? For some reason i thought it was ati/gothard's only. But could joe smoe sign up, or sign up his unruly 18 yr old? Is it another entrance point into the cult like the seminars?

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EmainMacha
2 hours ago, Sundaymorning said:

In the army, the Duggarlings would have to deal with a lot of different people from various backgrounds. Most of them would probably be the "wrong kind of" Christians, or have a different religion altogether, or even be ebil atheists. They could, oh the horror!, encounter women and would have to work with them without any chaperones present, and, even worse, those ebil gays don't have to hide in the closet anymore :pearlclutching:

Worse- they may have to take orders from women or the ebil gays! The horror!!

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blessalessi
34 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

So, can anyone off the street join ALERT? For some reason i thought it was ati/gothard's only. But could joe smoe sign up, or sign up his unruly 18 yr old? Is it another entrance point into the cult like the seminars?

If you read the application form (cant link sorry, it is a pdf) it seems unlikely that an average Jo/e would think to send their "child".  The questions are creepy and intrusive about the parents' marriage as well as about the chidult's own behaviour, and the family would need to be at least part-indoctrinated to cooperate with the process. And you pay $75 application fee so you need to be committed from the outset.

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HereticHick
15 hours ago, littlemommy said:

I guess I always just assumed their lives were so monotonous (yay, time at home with the fam. yay, filming of time at home with the fam) that going to one of these camps seems exciting and more like an adventure than a punishment. Like a really awful summer camp where no one knows how much it sucks.

Of course, I really have no idea, but I think the kids and the parents think this whole thing is just the mountaintop of fundie fun. 

I think for many hardcore home-schooled, home-churched ATI families, the other families that you meet at Big Sandy family camp may be practically the only non-relative friends (and future marriage partners) you are ever allowed to have. So yes, Big Sandy camp is probably very much looked forward to.

The Bates are going this year, as is Nathan's girfriend Ashley. It might be a week of torrid side-hugging beneath the pines.

Sierra has become such a Duggar wannabe--I wonder if she will start dragging her fam to Big Sandy as well? She can melt chocolate over the campfire and teach all the J'Slaves to dip strawberries.

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blessalessi

When I read the application forms and reviews of the camps, it makes me think that stories like the one about the Duggar girl tearfully confessing resentment over giving a jewellery box to her sister are probably really useful stories to spill out at those events. You would almost need a stack of that sort of fairly benign story in hand, for all the bible study sessions where they grill you to tell on all the ways you have turned your heart from God.  Otherwise, they will be right there digging for more information on your porn habit, your sexual thoughts, your parents' own relationship. It's seedy stuff.  And along with your application form, you have to send a full photo of your entire family, so pretty much  anyone you talk about in a counselling session is identifiable right away. :pb_eek:

5 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

I think for many hardcore home-schooled, home-churched ATI families, the other families that you meet at Big Sandy family camp may be practically the only non-relative friends (and future marriage partners) you are ever allowed to have. So yes, Big Sandy camp is probably very much looked forward to.

It probably depends a lot on your personality as to whether the creepy stuff bothers you.  Family bible study for so many of these families, is a fill the blanks book.  It is probably not that difficult to pay lip service to the bible teaching and get through the study part without too much angst, if you are there for the physical stuff and good at keeping rank and file. 

The more emotionally sensitive ones, or the physically weaker lads, and especially those with a history of trauma and abuse, are likely to be disproportionately affected by it all, and for them it must be a living hell.

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quiverofdoubt
24 minutes ago, blessalessi said:

If you read the application form (cant link sorry, it is a pdf) it seems unlikely that an average Jo/e would think to send their "child".  The questions are creepy and intrusive about the parents' marriage as well as about the chidult's own behaviour, and the family would need to be at least part-indoctrinated to cooperate with the process. And you pay $75 application fee so you need to be committed from the outset.

Wow. Rabbit hole. That application is creepy. just...creepy.  Have to wonder what they are getting at with some of the questions too.  Some are obvious, but others are more ambiguous.  Like the book one.  How many books do you read a month, which books have you read recently.  In secular applications the more the better with books, but here it's listed in the same manner, and right under the questions about media usage. I'm guessing if you listed The God Delusion as one of your last read books, or even Catcher in the Rye, you could be setting yourself up for a world of hurt.  

And some of the questions....asking 18-25 yr olds to characterize their parents relationship with each other? on a form that claims it's for a physical training academy? wowza.  yuck. They are asking for more than marital status here- because that was established in previous questions.

And the father part. yikes. Are there parts of your son's life that are no longer under your control? (they didn't use the word control, can't remember what they called it).  Um. he's over 18- so in the normal world the answer should be most of it, thank you very much.

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blessalessi

And the question asks "Have you ever been physically beaten or sexually molested? Please explain." :pb_eek:

One of those is almost a requirement for a well-trained child's heart. The other is *shrug* something that apparently happens in 1 in 3 families, because all have sinned and fallen short, etc.

Wtf is ATI going to do with that information anyway?!

 

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quiverofdoubt
2 minutes ago, blessalessi said:

And the question asks "Have you ever been physically beaten or sexually molested? Please explain." :pb_eek:

One of those is almost a requirement for a well-trained child's heart. The other is *shrug* something that apparently happens in 1 in 3 families, because all have sinned and fallen short, etc.

Wtf is ATI going to do with that information anyway?!

 

I was curious about that question too.  What business is it of theirs? Also, what do they consider beating? Do they discount the rod from their parents?  Where's the line? And wouldn't this require them to tell on their parents in some circumstances?

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19 cats and counting

So Jer/Jed are the oldest of the Howlers, who were feral for most of their childhood.

I wonder if this is JB/M's way of taming them and preparing them to find a girl and pop out babies for Jebus.

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Timetostoplurking

I think some young male journalist is missing a golden opportunity to write an award winning tell all book.  All he has to do is get his parents/family to back him up and get himself sent to ALERT.  Then, write a hook about it.  I would buy the hell out of a book like that.  

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Cleopatra7
14 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

So Jer/Jed are the oldest of the Howlers, who were feral for most of their childhood.

I wonder if this is JB/M's way of taming them and preparing them to find a girl and pop out babies for Jebus.

Probably. As I said upthread, it's probably easier to send the kids to these re-education camps and force them to conform to a very narrow social role than actually parent them. Maybe this is why Michelle thinks her parenting days are essentially over, despite all of the under -18 kids in the house, because she relies on re-education camps to do the parenting for her.

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Ungodly Grandma
On 3/26/2016 at 0:31 AM, season of life said:

ALERT always sounded shady as hell to me. Let your kids join the military, not these creepy faux military camps. But that would mean allowing your kids to look at other perspectives and being with different types of people.

That plus they want God to be their Commander in Chief.

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blessalessi
1 hour ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I was curious about that question too.  What business is it of theirs? Also, what do they consider beating? Do they discount the rod from their parents?  Where's the line? And wouldn't this require them to tell on their parents in some circumstances?

I shouldn't wonder that they are sniffing out how "robust" these young men are according to how the youngsters themselves describe and define physical punishment vs beating.

I dread to think why they conflate that with sexual molestation.

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choralcrusader8613
1 hour ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I was curious about that question too.  What business is it of theirs? Also, what do they consider beating? Do they discount the rod from their parents?  Where's the line? And wouldn't this require them to tell on their parents in some circumstances?

Just a thought, but maybe to "give appropriate counseling" a la that horrid sex abuse worksheet ATI has.

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blessalessi
1 minute ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

Just a thought, but maybe to "give appropriate counseling" a la that horrid sex abuse worksheet ATI has.

:pb_eek:  Seriously? A worksheet?!

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