Fundie group buying up an entire town?

[Mary C Doates]

21 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

There are, however, pockets of very orthodox. I've read about the "enclosures", which I think actually have string or rope of some sort attached to the telephone poles, which circumscribe the area to be kept. I think, and I mean THINK, I don't completely remember, that this limits the amount of walking proper for a sabbath, etc. as well as having some other meaning. 

It's called an eruv. There are prohibitions against carrying things (keys, money, etc.) on Shabbat; the eruv designates an area where carrying is permissible. It doesn't "pen in" people, just allows for individuals to carry things within that area. If you live outside of the eruv area, you can still walk wherever you want on Shabbat or on holidays--you just can't bring anything with you. My town has them around the local synagogues.

[Kelsey]

4 hours ago, Tim-Tom Biblethumper said:

The ones you see walking briskly in groups are the Sea Org workers either going to classes, auditing, musters, mess hall, or their posts. They're kept on a tight leash and if even a minute late to anything there is a punishment.

That's is so crazy. It's so hard to imagine that they'd stay and not just "keep walking." I've read about them working 100 hours a week for like $50!

[lilah]

This American Life podcast had an amazing show about how the haredi  took over the ramapo school board and now the school system is in deep debt due the haredi cutting programs left and right to save House cost and then spending millions of public funds busing their own children to private school. It's absolutely sickening. And because they vote as a block it's hard to move around them politically and any kind of motion to argue against them they will cry antisemitism.

 

http://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/534/a-not-so-simple-majority

 

As for why they don't move out somewhere more rural, part of the issue is that they do have to walk to shul and they benefit from communities where things are largely within walking distance. Also the SatMar community has its roots largely in Brooklyn since 1950's but with the population explosion and the rising cost of housing in Brooklyn they branched out to new York burbs and nj burbs. 

 

I find it highly ironic that SatMar are conservatives well also wanting so many government programs to support them. Lots of families are on food stamps and WIC. It's a very bad system to expect the majority of men to not work and then simultaneously support large families

 

 

[ven]

For people who want more information  on life in areas like kiryas joel  and new square i highly recommend reading shulem deens book "all who go do not return" ! it's a great author!

the major problem within these groups seems to be that the girls do not want to marry a working boy. they all want thora learners. If the parents money dries up , poverty quickly sets in. It's just not viable . i predict a major crisis coming soon , as girls just can not make enough money and care for 10+ kids. 

[Mary C Doates]

5 hours ago, ven said:

For people who want more information  on life in areas like kiryas joel  and new square i highly recommend reading shulem deens book "all who go do not return" ! it's a great author!

the major problem within these groups seems to be that the girls do not want to marry a working boy. they all want thora learners. If the parents money dries up , poverty quickly sets in. It's just not viable . i predict a major crisis coming soon , as girls just can not make enough money and care for 10+ kids. 

There were raids in the New Square/Monsey area earlier this week re: yeshivas misappropriating federal money earmarked for providing them with computers. Although the raids were televised on local channels, the yeshivas are denying they occurred. Pretty bizarre. 

[19 cats and counting]

5 hours ago, ven said:

For people who want more information  on life in areas like kiryas joel  and new square i highly recommend reading shulem deens book "all who go do not return" ! it's a great author!

the major problem within these groups seems to be that the girls do not want to marry a working boy. they all want thora learners. If the parents money dries up , poverty quickly sets in. It's just not viable . i predict a major crisis coming soon , as girls just can not make enough money and care for 10+ kids. 

I've heard stories that many of these girls are forced into arranged marriages at a very young (sometimes underage) age.  I know that it used to be Jewish tradition, but is it still practiced among these sects?

[apandaaries]

10 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

I've heard stories that many of these girls are forced into arranged marriages at a very young (sometimes underage) age.  I know that it used to be Jewish tradition, but is it still practiced among these sects?

I've been on a Haredi escapee tell-all binge, and from what I've been reading, arranged marriages are definitely still the norm and expected. In fact, in Judy Brown's This is Not a Love Story, the girl worries that her family is cursed because the parents dared to choose one another to wed.  Marriages are usually young, but generally around 18-20, not underage, as far as I can tell.  @Kittikatz's link, http://mosaicmagazine.com/response/2014/12/five-and-a-half-myths-about-ultra-orthodox-jews/, says that especially early marriages don't occur in these groups, and that's one way they distinguish themselves from Islam.  Thanks for those links, as well, Kittikatz!  Very informative.

[Kittikatz]

@amandaaries is correct - most of the Haredi marry between the ages of 18 and 25. That said, the sect that Lev Tahor, which recently fled Canada to Honduras because of religious 'persecution' (aka Children's Serices investigating and prosecuting) was forcing girls as young as fourteen to marry... among other severe abuses.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/lev-tahor-5-questions-answered-on-the-ultra-orthodox-jewish-sect-fleeing-canada-1.2561937

[lilah]

On 3/14/2016 at 2:08 PM, PennySycamore said:

@anjulibai, the area is just south of Wheaton Regional Park.  My husband grew up in Silver Spring and I remember him telling me how he and his friends would sometimes go to Larry's 5&10.  When we drove to my friend's house, we took a right at Larry's.  (I was amazed that Larry's was still there after 40 years or so.)   Anyhow, it was kinda cool to be in such a heavily Jewish area.  You don't see that in my neck-of-the-woods.

I live in Silver Spring, I think the Orthodox community is Modern Orthodox. One of my neighbors is a history teacher at the local yeshiva (and she's a gentile). Modern Orthodox are less fundie, girls are encouraged to get an education and not just be baby factories. 

Silver Spring has different pockets of communities. My neighborhood has had an influx of Ethiopians. They used to cluster in downtown but as they've gotten priced out of living in Shaw/Adams Morgan in DC they've moved to Silver Spring. Lots of great resteraunts to try.

 

 

[Kittikatz]

@lilah thank you for helping me realize I'm in desperate need of some kifko beef, iiab and injera. Preferably with a couple of the mitmit spicy caesars ('cause Alberta). That meal may just improve my mood... I love Ethiopian food

[Jingerbread]

On 3/18/2016 at 10:05 PM, lilah said:

It's a very bad system to expect the majority of men to not work and then simultaneously support large families

David Rodrigues would love this.  Sit there reading the bible all day and acting all holy while ignoring supporting the flock

I've known many Jewish people in my life, and those who've said anything about men not working have been pissed off about it because they think those sects make all Jewish people look like lazy moochers wanting something for nothing, and they're right.  The ones doing stupid shit (yes, it's stupid shit to have kids, then claim it's holy to not support them because you want to read a book all day about how you are so good and clever and godly for using your dick, and I don't care what religion it is) do reflect on everyone else.

And a sincere question.  How can a person study the same book every day, no matter what book it is, and not go literally insane?  I love the Harry Potter series, but thinking about spending all day every day of my life reading and analyzing it makes me cringe and I know I'd get sick of them after a while and have to shut down my brain to get through life.

[floridaotaku]

On 3/17/2016 at 11:14 PM, Tim-Tom Biblethumper said:

Don't take a tour, don't take a personality test, only make eye contact to smile knowingly.  And always check out anyone who you put in a position of trust in this town (realtors, doctors, employers, etc.).  It's bad....real bad.  I have decades of stories.  I hope to get out when family obligations allow.

My ex got a job in Clearwater, and it took exactly one year for him to be sucked in. The whole town is a danger zone. I hadn't realized before that just how deeply the church was embedded in all aspects of the community. It's pretty frightening. 

[PennySycamore]

@Jingerbread, well, the men are studying the Talmud which is volumes and volumes of commentaries on the Torah.  I think there are 63 volumes in all.  As Leo Rosten wrote in The Joys of Yiddish, you don't read the Talmud, you study it.

[anjulibai]

9 hours ago, Jingerbread said:

David Rodrigues would love this.  Sit there reading the bible all day and acting all holy while ignoring supporting the flock

I've known many Jewish people in my life, and those who've said anything about men not working have been pissed off about it because they think those sects make all Jewish people look like lazy moochers wanting something for nothing, and they're right.  The ones doing stupid shit (yes, it's stupid shit to have kids, then claim it's holy to not support them because you want to read a book all day about how you are so good and clever and godly for using your dick, and I don't care what religion it is) do reflect on everyone else.

And a sincere question.  How can a person study the same book every day, no matter what book it is, and not go literally insane?  I love the Harry Potter series, but thinking about spending all day every day of my life reading and analyzing it makes me cringe and I know I'd get sick of them after a while and have to shut down my brain to get through life.

I don't think it's studying just the Tanakh (Torah plus the other parts of the Hebrew Bible). There's Talmud, too, which is super long and has multiple versions, plus the Midrash, and all the commentaries  that have been written over the last two thousand years that go along with all of those books. I admit to not knowing what form the studying really takes, but I think there's a lot of discussion about finer points of law and applying it to modern issues or really esoteric questions. 

I agree that it seems like it would get boring after a while, but I imagine there's enough variety there that you can study a number of different topics on a regular basis without things getting repetative. 

[JoyfulSel]

This really pisses me off. As someone from NJ, I hope the people of Lakewood/Toms River hold strong. My dad lost his entire city when Serbs took it over and have now started their own illegal and disgusting "entity" within Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 

The voting block thing is terrible. You can't get rid of people who want to hide in these communities together and then monopolize voting, while drying funds with no recourse. Lots of these hidden communities hide abuses these ways.

[Cleopatra7]

13 hours ago, Jingerbread said:

David Rodrigues would love this.  Sit there reading the bible all day and acting all holy while ignoring supporting the flock

I've known many Jewish people in my life, and those who've said anything about men not working have been pissed off about it because they think those sects make all Jewish people look like lazy moochers wanting something for nothing, and they're right.  The ones doing stupid shit (yes, it's stupid shit to have kids, then claim it's holy to not support them because you want to read a book all day about how you are so good and clever and godly for using your dick, and I don't care what religion it is) do reflect on everyone else.

And a sincere question.  How can a person study the same book every day, no matter what book it is, and not go literally insane?  I love the Harry Potter series, but thinking about spending all day every day of my life reading and analyzing it makes me cringe and I know I'd get sick of them after a while and have to shut down my brain to get through life.

@anjulibai is correct; the Talmud is huge, over 6,000 pages long, much longer than the Hebrew Bible. The Talmud is a collection of rabbinic commentaries, commentaries on rabbinic commentaries, Jewish law, philosophy, ethics, etc. I can see why a master scholar of the Talmud would be held in esteem, but let's get real; most Haredi men and boys are not going to be master scholars, no matter how much they study. They'd be better off learning secular trades, for their own sakes and for the welfare of their huge families, but their society is telling them that they can only be Talmud scholars. There was a very telling episode in "Defenders of the Faith: Inside Ultra-Orthodox Judaism" by Samuel Heilman, when the author visits a group of ten year old boys at a Haredi school in Israel, and he watches the boys get into these really convoluted legal arguments about what to do when your ox gores a neighbor, but when he asks them to draw a map of Israel, their country where they live, they can't do it.

[Kittikatz]

@Cleopatra7 thats part of why the Israeli government has now started to force yeshivas to incorporate mainstream curriculum into their studies. From what I understand, they are linking the inclusion of this curriculum to funding, so it may not help with limiting the ignorance among young people from the richer sects. There is also a movement in some school authorities on the east coast of the US to investigate the level of education at this kind of school, and the UK has ordered several Haredi schools closed, ironically driving them underground.

PBS documentary about yeshivas and a lawsuit to try to get proper educational curriculum.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/2016/01/29/january-29-2016-ultra-orthodox-yeshiva-controversy/28831/

Meanwhile in London:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.697648

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1024721360902894&id=128645453843827&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2F&_rdr

FBI raiding a yeshiva suspected of fraud.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/03/17/fbi-raids-ultra-orthodox-jewish-schools-in-new-york-suspected-of-defrauding-government-tech-program/

http://www.jta.org/2016/03/17/news-opinion/fbi-raids-ny-haredi-yeshivas-and-their-tech-vendors-in-fraud-probe

Hopefully all this works... Nothing against religion being taught in relgious schooks, but this kind of thing is educational abuse, imo, anyway. Although part of me is a little amused, because as it stands right now, the ultra orthodox girls schools are probably more academically rigorous, which is pretty unusual for religious groups (though that isn't saying a lot).

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, Kittikatz said:

@Cleopatra7 thats part of why the Israeli government has now started to force yeshivas to incorporate mainstream curriculum into their studies. From what I understand, they are linking the inclusion of this curriculum to funding, so it may not help with limiting the ignorance among young people from the richer sects. There is also a movement in some school authorities on the east coast of the US to investigate the level of education at this kind of school, and the UK has ordered several Haredi schools closed, ironically driving them underground.

PBS documentary about yeshivas and a lawsuit to try to get proper educational curriculum.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/2016/01/29/january-29-2016-ultra-orthodox-yeshiva-controversy/28831/

Meanwhile in London:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.697648

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1024721360902894&id=128645453843827&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2F&_rdr

FBI raiding a yeshiva suspected of fraud.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/03/17/fbi-raids-ultra-orthodox-jewish-schools-in-new-york-suspected-of-defrauding-government-tech-program/

http://www.jta.org/2016/03/17/news-opinion/fbi-raids-ny-haredi-yeshivas-and-their-tech-vendors-in-fraud-probe

Hopefully all this works... Nothing against religion being taught in relgious schooks, but this kind of thing is educational abuse, imo, anyway. Although part of me is a little amused, because as it stands right now, the ultra orthodox girls schools are probably more academically rigorous, which is pretty unusual for religious groups (though that isn't saying a lot).

How is it that Haredi and FLDS communities use as welfare to support their communities when "welfare reform" in the 1990s was supposed to end that kind of mindset?

[Peas n carrots]

How is it that Haredi and FLDS communities use as welfare to support their communities when "welfare reform" in the 1990s was supposed to end that kind of mindset?

I think one big reason is they aren't people of color.

[Rubaiyat]

On March 18, 2016 at 9:05 PM, lilah said:

This American Life podcast had an amazing show about how the haredi  took over the ramapo school board and now the school system is in deep debt due the haredi cutting programs left and right to save House cost and then spending millions of public funds busing their own children to private school. It's absolutely sickening. And because they vote as a block it's hard to move around them politically and any kind of motion to argue against them they will cry antisemitism.

 

http://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/534/a-not-so-simple-majority

 

As for why they don't move out somewhere more rural, part of the issue is that they do have to walk to shul and they benefit from communities where things are largely within walking distance. Also the SatMar community has its roots largely in Brooklyn since 1950's but with the population explosion and the rising cost of housing in Brooklyn they branched out to new York burbs and nj burbs. 

 

I find it highly ironic that SatMar are conservatives well also wanting so many government programs to support them. Lots of families are on food stamps and WIC. It's a very bad system to expect the majority of men to not work and then simultaneously support large families

 

 

I took the entire 45+ mins. and listened to both parts of this soon after it was released.  Very eye opening, and more than a little disturbing.  Having worked in and with schools nearly my entire adult life, this particular story is both fascinating and horrifying to me for all sorts of reasons.  

Truly, if you (general you) haven't had a chance to listen to this, make time.  NPR does an excellent job capturing the feel of this issue.  

Thanks @lilah for posting this!!

[Kittikatz]

15 minutes ago, Peas n carrots said:

I think one big reason is they aren't people of color.

Agreed. X1000000

And also, I think that these extremist groups are to some extent, indirectly protected by their more mainstream co-religionists. The LDS Chuurch and many of its members seem unwilling to really discuss the FLDS, and a lot of mainstream Jews don't seem to want to challenge the Haredi - perhaps in both cases, because of discomfort caused by something to do with their level of observance seeming somehow closer to what God intended, or perhaps family ties, or the idea that the ancestors of many mainstream people were somehow 'like' the FLDS or Haredi and not wanting to punish them because they are living representatives of or links to that archaic past...

Also, in Israel, there is the idea that having a group of people like the Haredi in existence somehow protects the State from its enemies. Like an 'umbrella' of holy protection (eyeroll - these religions aren't very original are they?). This is one of the reasons the Haredi have historically been excluded from military service, and from what I can tell, the main public driver of the government starting to want to force the Haredi into more participation in mainstream life through education and service is the growing perception that many are being less than devout scholars, who are taking government money and working jobs on the side. There is also the more practical reality that there are simply too many of them to fund at even subsistence levels, but the mainstream media isn't pushing this, so many Israelis seem to be not fully aware of that math...

And too, the welfare reform movement in the US was heavily pushed by the 'moral majority' republicans. I can see them being unwilling to question anything that looked like a fundie for fear of alienating their pet evangelicals.

 

[hilee]

I'm just wondering why buy up a block of already expensive homes, I'm sure they will likely (hopefully) remodel. I honestly only really know one orthodox family all that well and they have special appliances for sabbath, their neighbors lost all but one of their kids in a house fire caused by a hot plate. I think maybe a lot of homes would have them especially if they are more expensive?

Pushing people out so you can have your own town is sick. Buy up some land somewhere and get your town that way. But again, how would they have everything else they need without outsiders? 

[Mary C Doates]

I live near Rockland and Orange (NY) counties, where there are several towns that are either largely Hassidic (Monsey, Spring Valley) or entirely Hassidic (Kiryas Joel, Kaser, New Square). There is incredible anger towards their residents, and especially towards their community leaders, from the non-Hassidic people living in the area. My friends tend to be extremely liberal, social activists, and employed in social service jobs, but they express such vitriol towards their ultra-Orthodox and Hassidic neighbors that it is shocking to hear. It seems like more than concern and anger about the use of tax money, school funding, and property values. 

Although my small-ish town has two ultra-Orthodox communities, there seems to be less alarm over their presence, possibly because each of the sects is fairly small and they seem less insular than, say, Satmar. 

[Arete]

32 minutes ago, Mary C Doates said:

. It seems like more than concern and anger about the use of tax money, school funding, and property values. 

Although my small-ish town has two ultra-Orthodox communities, there seems to be less alarm over their presence, possibly because each of the sects is fairly small and they seem less insular than, say, Satmar. 

I can only give you my specific impressions.  I grew up in a town with a sizable Modern Orthodox Jewish population.  At the time, most were sending their kids to the public schools with the rest of us.  We went to school together, were on Little League teams together, they came over our houses, and we went to theirs.  Sure, we learned they couldn't have dinner with us, but all those families were active participants in the community together with the non Jews.

I personally have sometimes found interacting with the ultra Orthodox/Hasids to be more than I can take, with the exception of Lubavitchers.  Men will not make eye contact with a woman, even when they are asking me for directions.  I've had the woman pull their kids away from me and other commuters if they think they got to close.  I've seen old people fall down and ultra Orthodox men walk around them like they weren't there.  They give the overall impression that a non Jew is there to serve or else should be ignored.  Many of the more insular sects flat out teach their kids that ALL non Jews are evil and want to hurt them.  I'll be the first to tell you that not all Hasids are like this, but enough of them act with such contempt around non Jews in NYC that people notice, and people resent it.

So yes, it is the take over of towns and school boards and the competition for government programs, but I suspect your friends have also experienced public interactions like mine, and being considered something less than really ratchets up resentment.

[19 cats and counting]

I used to work in a (major) mall in Rockland County (those familiar with the area should know the mall).  When the Ultra Orthodox Jews came into our store (not often because it's a specialty store that sells things that can be had for much less money) if one of us greeted them, if anyone responded  it would only be the women (90% of our staff was female because most guys don't go near the store unless shopping for a woman).  The men would not even look us in the eye or say hello.

I get cultural traditions and all but when you're downright rude to retail staff just because they're women, then it's very hard for them to respect you and your culture.  A little hello goes a long way.