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What is the pulse of 2nd generation fundie marriages?


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36 minutes ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

 

At work? 

They had lunch together in the cafeteria, from what I understand. When I worked at an office with a cafeteria, my then-SO, along with parents and friends, ate there with me all the time, as did everyone else's. There's no lunch hour for a piano teacher. Personally, I just don't get the big deal. Also, "showed up" indicates he didn't want it, and we have no evidence of that. My husband and I share a car and we drive each other places all the time, including to work.

With the comparison, I was just comparing the amount of 'clinginess.' I would think that anyone who read Chad's blog or looked at their public Instagram would find him EXTREMELY clingy (and Erin too) if that's the standard. I don't find anything wrong with it, but I just think it's interesting that we are so quick to assume Jill is the clingy one, just like people assumed Brandon was ultra controlling rather than Carlin, who was actually behaving in a controlling way. Maybe Derrick is clingy and wants her to be there all the time? Regardless, it smacks of gender stereotyping ("clingy wife/gf," "controlling male partner") to me.

From what I remember about the episode, he seemed pleased with it and said he hated being away from her. If people at work think Derrick/Jill are weird, it's not because she's there, it's because they're a spectacle to begin with and crazy-fundie. In one BuB episode, Chad said he'd never take a job that would take him away from Erin ever.

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I'm not sure why the lunching together is a big deal, either. Before kids, my husband used to have lunch with me on his days off and vice versa. Even after kids, we'd occasionally have lunch together (although the logistics got much more complicated). It was fun.

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35 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Come to think of it, in terms of social media, the Bates marrieds are more clingy than the Duggars.  ALl of the married Duggars (and spouses) each have their own Instagram account.  But only one married Bates couple (Alyssa/John) does.  The others have both names in it but it is pretty clear only the wife does the posting.

(Personally I've found couples sharing social media accounts way over the top but that's a rant for another day).  

Omg, yes. I never even knew shared Facebook accounts were a thing until I searched up some fundies. I think anyone that feels the need to share an account is subtly implying they don't their partner to be responsible on social media. Fundies share accounts because no one wants the other to have a little bit of privacy and because they think single accounts lead to porn-watching. I also hate it how they share accounts but it is so obvious the wife is on it most of the time. Like, just get your own account!

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It's one thing to have lunch with your spouse at their work every so often, but I think it's odd to do so every day.

Don't you (general you) have a life outside of your spouse? Friends or family to have lunch with? Your own job to go to? Your own activities and your own schedule you have to accomodate? What about just eating lunch alone? 

It just seems odd to me, and I say that a someone that has eaten at my husband's work cafeteria many times and even camped out there all day a few times because we had appointments to go to during that day (we have one car and it was just easier to wait for him there, with me bringing my own work along to do while I waited for him). 

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17 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

It's one thing to have lunch with your spouse at their work every so often, but I think it's odd to do so every day.

Don't you (general you) have a life outside of your spouse? Friends or family to have lunch with? Your own job to go to? Your own activities and your own schedule you have to accomodate? What about just eating lunch alone? 

It just seems odd to me, and I say that a someone that has eaten at my husband's work cafeteria many times and even camped out there all day a few times because we had appointments to go to during that day (we have one car and it was just easier to wait for him there, with me bringing my own work along to do while I waited for him). 

My husband and I worked for the same company and in the same building and didn't have lunch together. We took separate cars because he liked to talk and I liked quiet on the way to and from work. Since I've been out of work, we've spent a lot of time together just due to the whole no job and broke thing. BUT...we each have separate interests, and do things with separate friends quite often. He'll go hang out with some of the guys he knows from church or I'll go hang out with my car club. Love the man to death but I need breathing room and so does he. 

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On 3/14/2016 at 8:12 PM, feministxtian said:
2 hours ago, anjulibai said:

It's one thing to have lunch with your spouse at their work every so often, but I think it's odd to do so every day.

Don't you (general you) have a life outside of your spouse? Friends or family to have lunch with? Your own job to go to? Your own activities and your own schedule you have to accomodate? What about just eating lunch alone? 

It just seems odd to me, and I say that a someone that has eaten at my husband's work cafeteria many times and even camped out there all day a few times because we had appointments to go to during that day (we have one car and it was just easier to wait for him there, with me bringing my own work along to do while I waited for him). 

We don't actually know that they did that every day. I'm sure it wasn't literally *every* day. We tend to generalize based on the little info we do have from social media. I don't think they literally said, "We never have lunch without each other." Plus, remember that TLC wants to push the whole "obsessive couples! Romance! Newlyweds!!!!" angle. If anything, they encouraged that kind of talk.

Also, meh. It's a couple's own decision how often they have lunch together. 

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Of course, we only have what we see on the show/social media to go by, but I get the impression that while Chad clearly worships the ground Erin walks on, he also lets her do her own thing without being glued to her side and vice versa. She goes off and does her music thing (teaching/recording) and I don't think we've seen anything to suggest she is constantly going to his workplace. Their relationship seems pretty healthy to me.....a happy couple with a husband who treats his wife like royalty, but they still have their own separate "things". 

My comment about Jill being clingy was based on her immediately saying "none" when asked how much time a couple needs apart from each other more than the lunch thing. No matter how much you love someone, you need time to yourself and time with other people.....time to be yourself rather than half of a couple. 

4 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Come to think of it, in terms of social media, the Bates marrieds are more clingy than the Duggars.  ALl of the married Duggars (and spouses) each have their own Instagram account.  But only one married Bates couple (Alyssa/John) does.  The others have both names in it but it is pretty clear only the wife does the posting.

(Personally I've found couples sharing social media accounts way over the top but that's a rant for another day).  

I find shared social media accounts nauseating "in real life", but I can understand it with public figures. They are sort of presented as married couples/families on the show and they have a bit of an obligation to be on social media, so just made an account for "their family" for the purpose of fulfilling their duty to upload pictures from time to time as a tie in to promoting the show......and the guys might not want an account of their own anyway so the wife does it.

I know Alyssa has a private instagram but i wouldn't be suprised if some of the others have private accounts as well. 

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I think it depends on your workplace/industry culture. At my job there it would be seen as kind of weird to have lunch with your spouse daily as that is time to bond with co-workers or time for taking out clients. But Derrick was an accountant at Wal-Mart so he wouldn't be taking out clients and maybe the lunch with co-workers isn't a bid deal.

However, considering Jill's background growing up in ATI and their emphasis on men being self employed I found it interesting she would go have lunch at his work with him almost daily. When you compare Derrick when they got married to know it is a notable transformation. Maybe he is totally cool and onboard with it, or maybe he is silently screaming. But when you consider the whole the daily lunch thing feels more like the insidious Gothard influence rather than something benign.

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12 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

And the Waller instagram is joint.  Maybe that was why Mr. Keller was so obsessed with TFDW's internet use.  It all makes sense now.

I originally wondered why Papa Keller didn't ask Josh to make the same promise Pecan did. It certainly does make sense with what's come to light now.

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1 hour ago, FundiesInParis said:

To be fair to Jill, I eat lunch with my spouse everyday, schedules permitting. 

Same. We also carpool when schedules permit, because we work in the same building.

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6 hours ago, FundiesInParis said:

To be fair to Jill, I eat lunch with my spouse everyday, schedules permitting. 

We usually eat together 2-3 times a week as well because we only work 2 blocks from one another. Our office staffs have gotten friendly with each other,too, so sometimes the whole crew from our 2 small offices will go out together or smaller groups from the two places will run out.  One benefit of being in a smallish town - we all know each other, at least a little bit.

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We work together, now, but years ago, he worked in a building that didn't allow visitors without a specific function (ie, vendor) to get in the place.  I saw his office about 5 times in 17 years, even though he got promoted rather high, because they had tight security on the place-- but had family day every few years. 

He'd sometimes come have supper with me (or lunch, when we were on opposite shifts) as my workplace was small and we'd go to the restaurant down the street.  Now, we drive to work together most days, and make our lunches together, but usually eat at our desks, in different areas. 

 

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Yeah, I understand the "none" comment, but I would have said that as a newlywed too, especially if I was marrying my first ever boyfriend and having sex for the first time all at once. It's got to feel like the world. Is. That. Person. One thing I will say for the No Sex Before Got-hard Says thing is that it certainly must encourage very affectionate partnerships. Chad and Erin and Alyssa and John obviously love each other, but would they really be *that* obsessed if that person hadn't also been the single key to ever touching another person sexually in any way, including kissing? Maybe, but maybe not. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but then you see couples like Ben and Jessa who clearly just did it FOR the sex and think they're in love because of it and it makes you wonder...

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I think Jill, possibly like a lot of mega-family kids, has never learned to be by herself.  My brother (the middle child) used to panic when he thought he might be left alone, and even as a teen he would accompany us (his sisters) to the mall rather than stay home by himself.  My mom had to force him to stay by himself, because being by yourself from time to time is unavoidable in adult life.  It's not his favorite thing, but he learned to be on his own and is comfortable with it now.  Jill might learn or she might feel more comfortable with Izzy around.  I find Jill incredibly annoying, but I have to sympathize with her in that being alone post marriage was likely the first time that had EVER happened in her life.  Sure, she handled it poorly, but it's not her fault she wasn't given an opportunity to learn that growing up.  

Pris has changed a lot, and it is very sad.  I went back and watched the early Josh+Anna episodes (courtship and marriage and newlywed), and I thought she was another Keller sister she was so different.  She was bright and bubbly, and that slow speech she has now wasn't there at ALL.  It's really sad what that marriage has done to her.  Given other comments she's made, I think she is suffering from some serious depression.  

Chad seems to genuinely love it when Erin does well.  Unlike other fundie husbands, he doesn't seem threatened by his wife "outdoing" him or not being top #1 dog patriarch superman champion.  He seems to encourage her to pursue her talents and interests, supports her in her projects, and seems to be happier in her successes than his own.   I can't think of any other fundie headship that would watch his infant son while his wife records an album with another man.

I think one thing that makes the Bates unique from the Duggars, Kellers, Wallers, etc. is that they seem to have an extensive social network outside of the family.  The Paines go to church with their friends from Crown.  Alyssa and John seem to be pretty social in Florida.  It stands to reason Whit and Zach have friends from outside, maybe one reason why they were not jazzed about Friday Family Bible Time.  We've seen Tori with a lot of friends from Crown.  Have we ever seen a Duggar girl with anyone besides in-laws and the Bates?  Probably, but it's certainly not frequent.  

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That's where getting married and having kids got me...I am an only child and I LIKE being alone. Being around other people either gets on my nerves or royally pisses me off most of the time. Heck, I don't even like having the TV on most of the time. Music, yes, TV, no. 

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2 hours ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Yeah, I understand the "none" comment, but I would have said that as a newlywed too, especially if I was marrying my first ever boyfriend and having sex for the first time all at once. It's got to feel like the world. Is. That. Person. One thing I will say for the No Sex Before Got-hard Says thing is that it certainly must encourage very affectionate partnerships. Chad and Erin and Alyssa and John obviously love each other, but would they really be *that* obsessed if that person hadn't also been the single key to ever touching another person sexually in any way, including kissing? Maybe, but maybe not. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but then you see couples like Ben and Jessa who clearly just did it FOR the sex and think they're in love because of it and it makes you wonder...

I definitely agree that the whole courtship model emotionally stunts these relationships and when they get married, they are twenty-somethings who are basically like teenagers with their first serious boyfriends....except there is a wedding ring and an expectation to immediately 'be fruitful and multiply' there as well. 

However, Derick didn't actually grow up in this culture, he comes from a much more mainstream background and had experiences that made him (IMO) more mature than Jill. He had been to an actual certified state college for 4 years and was involved in activities on campus, he went and lived in a developing country alone, he had the beginnings of a potentially decent career in accounting going for him. He's had a lot more 'normal friendships' than Jill as well I assume. That's actually why more than any of the others, he could be the one who might find Jill's clinginess a bit annoying. He's actually used to some independence and had life experiences that made him 'mentally' a twenty-something.......but then he's gotten married and Jill is kind of on the level of an 18 year old girl with her first real boyfriend. I could see it being grating. 

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58 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

That's where getting married and having kids got me...I am an only child and I LIKE being alone. Being around other people either gets on my nerves or royally pisses me off most of the time. Heck, I don't even like having the TV on most of the time. Music, yes, TV, no. 

It just dawned on me that this could be an issue for me if I ever get into a long-term relationship. My sister came to stay with me for a week, and while I love her to pieces, dropping her off at the airport train was on the same "aaaahhhhh" level as taking a massive dump or getting a backrub from Tom Hiddleston. She's not super-self-reliant when it comes to public transportation and stuff like that, so we were pretty much constantly together for the entire week, which was great a lot of the time (we did a ton of fun activities and had a great time together), but also made me feel claustrophobic and exhausted from having to be "on" all the time. Coming back to my apartment and having it all to myself again was AWESOME.

I understand Jill's Stage Five Clinger behavior from an outsider's standpoint (it's entirely possible that the longest she'd ever been completely alone before marriage was to use the bathroom), but I personally just don't get that "OMG I NEED TO BE AROUND PEOPLE ALL THE TIME" attitude. I have ended friendships and romantic relationships because Party B seemed to lack object permanence and constancy, and would need to hang out all the time, and if we couldn't hang out, cue 2000000 texts and Skype messages (not in a harass-y way, more in a HI I'M GOING TO TELL YOU ABOUT EVERY MINUTE THING I DID TODAY way). Because god forbid we go a few days just doing our own thing and checking in when we need to.

Speaking of that, when Jana said "sometimes we don't hear for them for a couple days" about Jill and Derick in the preview, I instantly thought "wait, you're supposed to talk to your family every single day? When I was in super-rural China, I skyped my family regularly or if something awesome or terrible happened, but not every day. Ain't nobody got time for that." Now I'm in the UK and I talk to my family even less.

I know everyone has different experiences, cultures, and personalities; I personally wouldn't last a day in Duggarville or hanging out with Jill. I don't even know how well I'd handle being married to someone and having kids unless I marry another introvert and have introverted children.

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The Duggars seem to show total enmeshment. It seems like there is no concept of alone time at all in that family. I remember an episode where J'chelle was still in Little Rock with Josie and everyone else was back at the TTH she constantly whined about how lonely she felt. The 5 months I lived here before my husband came were HEAVEN...just me and the critters. I LOVE my alone time, and only hanging out with people (even my husband) on my terms. Fortunately my husband understands this now...at first he saw it as almost abandonment...living in this oversized closet with him has SUCKED...I can't get away. 

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3 hours ago, Georgiana said:

 

I think one thing that makes the Bates unique from the Duggars, Kellers, Wallers, etc. is that they seem to have an extensive social network outside of the family.  The Paines go to church with their friends from Crown.  Alyssa and John seem to be pretty social in Florida.  It stands to reason Whit and Zach have friends from outside, maybe one reason why they were not jazzed about Friday Family Bible Time.  We've seen Tori with a lot of friends from Crown.  Have we ever seen a Duggar girl with anyone besides in-laws and the Bates?  Probably, but it's certainly not frequent.  

Yes. There is evidence all over social media. There's evidence that the Duggars have a social network outside of the family here on FreeJinger. 

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3 hours ago, Georgiana said:

I think Jill, possibly like a lot of mega-family kids, has never learned to be by herself.  My brother (the middle child) used to panic when he thought he might be left alone, and even as a teen he would accompany us (his sisters) to the mall rather than stay home by himself.  My mom had to force him to stay by himself, because being by yourself from time to time is unavoidable in adult life.  It's not his favorite thing, but he learned to be on his own and is comfortable with it now.  Jill might learn or she might feel more comfortable with Izzy around.  I find Jill incredibly annoying, but I have to sympathize with her in that being alone post marriage was likely the first time that had EVER happened in her life.  Sure, she handled it poorly, but it's not her fault she wasn't given an opportunity to learn that growing up.  

Pris has changed a lot, and it is very sad.  I went back and watched the early Josh+Anna episodes (courtship and marriage and newlywed), and I thought she was another Keller sister she was so different.  She was bright and bubbly, and that slow speech she has now wasn't there at ALL.  It's really sad what that marriage has done to her.  Given other comments she's made, I think she is suffering from some serious depression.  

Chad seems to genuinely love it when Erin does well.  Unlike other fundie husbands, he doesn't seem threatened by his wife "outdoing" him or not being top #1 dog patriarch superman champion.  He seems to encourage her to pursue her talents and interests, supports her in her projects, and seems to be happier in her successes than his own.   I can't think of any other fundie headship that would watch his infant son while his wife records an album with another man.

I think one thing that makes the Bates unique from the Duggars, Kellers, Wallers, etc. is that they seem to have an extensive social network outside of the family.  The Paines go to church with their friends from Crown.  Alyssa and John seem to be pretty social in Florida.  It stands to reason Whit and Zach have friends from outside, maybe one reason why they were not jazzed about Friday Family Bible Time.  We've seen Tori with a lot of friends from Crown.  Have we ever seen a Duggar girl with anyone besides in-laws and the Bates?  Probably, but it's certainly not frequent.  

I think that a big difference between the Bateses and the Duggars is that the former really are expected to "leave and cleave," whereas the latter are expected to live on the compound indefinitely with their spouses and children. I suppose the difference probably comes not from anything inherently "better" within the Bateses, but more from their poverty. Gil and Kathy simply can't afford to build houses and buy land for all their kids, which forces the kids to have to be out in the world. However, I think Gil to some extent chose poverty in a way that JB didn't, since he used to have a mainstream corporate job that he quit so he could play the part of the pious, poor, quiverfull patriarch. Although they have a reality show now, I doubt the Bateses are making the same amount that the Duggars do. In comparison, JB and Michelle have clearly been planning their family compound since the early specials and expect all the kids to fall in line. The Joshgate scandals have probably reinforced in their minds the importance of keeping all the kids close at hand and monitoring their activities, even if said kids are grown and married. The Duggars definitely see themselves as a brand, but the Bateses don't, at least not yet.

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The Duggars bought the land that the TTH is on before TLC came calling. JB said his intent was for the children to build houses on the land. The Bates have land but I've never expressly heard Gil say anything about the kids staying close to home. 

The Duggars also had a certain amount of $$ before TLC. The Bates didn't. So, it seems the Bates kids learned to work because they needed the money...yes, Gil gets crap for borrowing money from Lawson, but it still says something about the work ethic instilled in the kids. Duggar kids...not so much (see Josh and the car lot). 

I know that both families have the same toxic beliefs...but there's a HUGE difference in how those beliefs are lived out. 

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Do the Duggars have a compound? Are the Duggar children really expected to live on the "compound" indefinitely? Josh and Anna have their own home, Ben and Jessa bought a house(?) JB sold the home Jill and Derick lived in. In the beginning he said the mansion was a temporary home for Jill and Derick. JD worked for a house. Post Joshgate, Derick and Jill left the country and Ben and Jessa are hanging out with (Christians) rappers! That doesn't sound like JB is keeping them close at hand and monitoring their activities.

 

ETA: I know, I'm defending and fawning :my_rolleyes:. I just find some of the comments about the Duggars vs Bates ridiculous. 

 

 

Edited by Kira
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2 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I definitely agree that the whole courtship model emotionally stunts these relationships and when they get married, they are twenty-somethings who are basically like teenagers with their first serious boyfriends....except there is a wedding ring and an expectation to immediately 'be fruitful and multiply' there as well. 

However, Derick didn't actually grow up in this culture, he comes from a much more mainstream background and had experiences that made him (IMO) more mature than Jill. He had been to an actual certified state college for 4 years and was involved in activities on campus, he went and lived in a developing country alone, he had the beginnings of a potentially decent career in accounting going for him. He's had a lot more 'normal friendships' than Jill as well I assume. That's actually why more than any of the others, he could be the one who might find Jill's clinginess a bit annoying. He's actually used to some independence and had life experiences that made him 'mentally' a twenty-something.......but then he's gotten married and Jill is kind of on the level of an 18 year old girl with her first real boyfriend. I could see it being grating. 

Definitely agree, except he probably could have gotten any nice normal Christian girl but instead picked Jill, which makes me think he might REALLY REALLY like the Duggar thing. He had to go out of his way to do that when he could have picked any girl in rural Arkansas or at OSU to date. I'm sure many of them are up to his standards of Christianity. Maybe the loneliness after his dad's death and his mom's illness made him more inclined to fervent religiosity, or maybe he was always a lot more Christian than most?

That actually makes me feel like he might be extra inclined to WANT the clinginess, since I assume it's loneliness and/or extreme internal traditionalism in part that led him down the path he took.

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@Georgiana, you make good points about the possibility that Jill struggles with being alone, period. My brother married a fundie with eleventy siblings. They also had no alone time (unless in public) and limited physical contact before marriage. His wife often talks about her desire to be with him all the time. They have been married for 5 years. I have also had conversations with one of her married sisters, who isn't as clingy with her husband, but she was extremely uncomfortable with the "quiet" in their home before they had children. She actually told me that she had to fight urges to ask her husband if they could go stay at her parents' house! This is a woman in her 30s.

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