Paroled from Jesus jail: Josh comes home - part 14

[ksgranola1]

Well, it's only human nature to lose your temper about something so serious. I do believe it will happen. She needs to tell him how she really feels & he needs to hear it.

[quiverofdoubt]

12 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Four kids is a lot to take care of. I don't see Josh really enjoying the responsibility. As Jessa says.....24 hour care.....but of course Anna does it but it is still a responsibility he has to deal with. 

It is a lot, relative to the average family. But for josh and anna it may not seem like a lot. Anna probably feels exhausted and overwhelmed and underwater, but probably still considers her family small.  They both grew up in large families, and pretty much every other family they ever interacted with was huge. Most of the families at the big sandy events were on the big side for sure.  I can see josh telling anna to get over it and deal "you only have four, my mom managed with all 19 of us".  I just see him throwing that in her face when she gets up the nerve to complain about being tired after being up with the baby or something. And then her repenting for not "being content" or whatever.

Not that I think josh wants a lot of kids, or even wanted the 4 they have. I think the big family/live just like meechelle dream is all anna.  But i can see him using that reference to shame her into doing all the work and not helping with the kids.

[Dandruff]

12 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

I don't know about a foot to the nuts, but "oops sorry honey didn't see you there, didn't mean to slam your fingers in the door"! Or "ya know, I've had a bed to myself for the last 6 months so I kinda sprawl out now.  I certainly didn't mean to elbow you in the stomach/head"   Sadly as much as I think we all wish she would..I don't see Anna being passive aggressive like that. But I think when pushed to the absolute breaking point, she had that moment where she turned the sweet off and bitched him out. The problem I see now is trust. All the lies, for goodness knows how long.  How do you live with someone you know without a doubt you can't trust? And if its open access to his phone, email, computer etc, how long before Josh is 'over' being monitored all the time and puts his foot down?

I think if Josh puts his foot down then all Anna has to do is make a phone call and an older male Duggar will put a foot down on him.  They were all betrayed by Josh - though Anna was betrayed longer - but the guys don't have to "keep sweet".  And they really don't want another scandal.

Don't know if Anna ever bitched him out, though I hope she did.  I can imagine her flipping out (who wouldn't?) but being afraid to confront him.  She may have felt, following the revelations, that she was dealing with an unpredictable stranger.  She also, depending on what and how much she was told about the molestations, may have wondered who his family would support.

Agree that any trust should be gone.  But she may still love him, she has four of his children, and he's probably acting like the model husband.  With safeguards in place she may be able to pretend...at least for awhile.

 

[NeverAFundie]

15 hours ago, colors_outside15 said:

All right ... confession time. At least it's confession to fellow FJs ... 

So, after I left, I started seeing the Duggars on TV. I was so jealous. (That tells you something about my "childhood" right there). The mom talked quietly, the dad seemed loving, the family took trips, everyone was kind ... I found it super calming to hear them talk and to dream about having a kind family. The Duggars created that fantasy for me because I didn't have the perspective of a healthy, happy family. 

 

I think this phenomenon happens A LOT.  It may not involve fundamentalism, but there are millions of "damaged" people in the world who latch on to other people and other families, either in reality or in their imaginations, to fill voids.  I certainly did, and my family of origin isn't all that messed up.  But when I met my ex-husband's family, they were very much with the talking nicely and being supportive and I just could not BELIEVE that here was a family that all got along and loved each other.  It took years of marriage for me to figure out that they were just as messed up as my family--they were just a lot better at hiding it.

Given what we know about how much abuse and suffering exists in many fundie homes, and the stories we've heard here and on other websites from those who have escaped fundamentalism, I can very much see how anyone who had anything less than a TLC-television-show-picture-perfect life would view the Duggars as the literal Holy Grail of fundamentalism.  And THAT is exactly why they are so dangerous. Because they use their heavily edited show to trumpet a lifestyle that is basically impossible to maintain while subscribing to QF beliefs, and a worldview that causes devastating emotional damage to the youth they indoctrinate.  The facade they broadcast on their show is both a bald-faced lie, and the dream of many people who have been mistreated and yet can't or won't give up the fundamentalist piece of their lives.

Colors, I'm glad you made it out, and that you are growing and healing.  

[Drala]

I've been struck by how harmless the Duggars appear on television compared to what is known about them through the internet, e.g., their hate mongering on the GLBT community.  That's not something you see them doing on their TV show.  Or the true nature of Josh's Washington advocacy job with FRC--I'm not sure TLC ever identified Josh's employer.  Or just how poorly educated the kids are.  There's lots to be concerned about with the TLC gloss on the Duggars' lifestyle, but for me, the educational neglect is especially problematic.  The homeschooling crap flies just under the radar for people who watch the show and don't know anything about the ATI/IBLP curriculum.               

[NeverAFundie]

4 minutes ago, Drala said:

I've been struck by how harmless the Duggars appear on television compared to what is known about them through the internet, e.g., their hate mongering on the GLBT community.  That's not something you see them doing on their TV show.  Or the true nature of Josh's Washington advocacy job with FRC--I'm not sure TLC ever identified Josh's employer.  Or just how poorly educated the kids are.  There's lots to be concerned about with the TLC gloss on the Duggars' lifestyle, but for me, the educational neglect is especially problematic.  The homeschooling crap flies just under the radar for people watch the show and don't know anything about the ATI/IBLP curriculum.               

I'm a card-carrying liberal feminist, raised by card-carrying liberal feminists.  And I had zero idea about how truly destructive their practices are for the first few years I kept up with their lives.  The combination of TLC and the fawning press coverage in People Magazine has done more damage than I can describe.  Even in the darkest days of the dual scandals in 2015, very few media reports EVER did ANY meaningful probing into the Duggar belief system.  Some of their controversial beliefs may have been mentioned here or there, but very few media outlets did any significant coverage of how batshit crazy the belief system is.  Little to nothing on blanket training.  Little to nothing on the insanely subpar nature of their educations.  And NOBODY talked about how the Duggars share belief systems with families that have been destroyed by abuse.  And I recall very little, if any, discussion of the IBLP shitstorm and the Duggar connections to rapists, molestors, and abusers.

I would like nothing more than for some hard-boiled old-school investigative reporter for a nationally-respected publication to spend months investigating all of this and write a multi-part expose on the whole thing.  And then win a Pulitzer.  So far, it just hasn't gotten the mainstream traction it needs apart from the "entertainment" factor.

[goldfishgoddess]

On 3/11/2016 at 9:11 AM, Sweet Fellowship said:

I'll bet Josh has lost weight and some hair. Maybe he's even grown a beard.

Nah, I bet he's still his same fat smug self.   Some things never change, and Smuggar's not going to change his ways.

[Mothership]

34 minutes ago, NeverAFundie said:

I'm a card-carrying liberal feminist, raised by card-carrying liberal feminists.  And I had zero idea about how truly destructive their practices are for the first few years I kept up with their lives.  The combination of TLC and the fawning press coverage in People Magazine has done more damage than I can describe.  Even in the darkest days of the dual scandals in 2015, very few media reports EVER did ANY meaningful probing into the Duggar belief system.  Some of their controversial beliefs may have been mentioned here or there, but very few media outlets did any significant coverage of how batshit crazy the belief system is.  Little to nothing on blanket training.  Little to nothing on the insanely subpar nature of their educations.  And NOBODY talked about how the Duggars share belief systems with families that have been destroyed by abuse.  And I recall very little, if any, discussion of the IBLP shitstorm and the Duggar connections to rapists, molestors, and abusers.

I would like nothing more than for some hard-boiled old-school investigative reporter for a nationally-respected publication to spend months investigating all of this and write a multi-part expose on the whole thing.  And then win a Pulitzer.  So far, it just hasn't gotten the mainstream traction it needs apart from the "entertainment" factor.

Anyone know how to contact Jon Krakauer?  This is exactly his kind of book.  I highly recommend "Under the Banner of Heaven"

[NeverAFundie]

"Under the Banner of Heaven" chilled me to my very bones.  Such a profoundly disturbing view of Mormon fundamentalism.

[Funwithfundies]

17 hours ago, colors_outside15 said:

All right ... confession time. At least it's confession to fellow FJs ... 

So, after I left, I started seeing the Duggars on TV. I was so jealous. (That tells you something about my "childhood" right there). The mom talked quietly, the dad seemed loving, the family took trips, everyone was kind ... I found it super calming to hear them talk and to dream about having a kind family. The Duggars created that fantasy for me because I didn't have the perspective of a healthy, happy family. At some point, I felt so lonely and so detached from this "new" world (aka the world) I didn't understand, that I wrote to Boob & Meechele. ... They wrote back, and honestly, they were lovely. (Now, I know they are creepy, but in a personalized email when I didn't know better, they sounded like the dream family I watched on TV). I had only been out for just a year, but I missed my buddies so much, and they were comforting, reassuring, had advice, and offered me some "options" free of charge. When I got that email, I felt so worthy and so loved.

 

Well, as long as we're confessing...maybe this will make you feel better:. Many years ago, when my three kiddos were young, I very briefly fell for the lie that was Jon & Kate plus 8.  I was so impressed by their ability to handle six babies and two kindergarteners 'all by themselves!', that I sent them an encouraging email, saying how impressed I was by them (oh, to have access to a time machine...).  I found out later that apparently they never bothered to reply to people who sent them money and gifts, so it was no surprise that they never responded to an email of mere praise.

Phew - I feel better after confessing!  

[DuggarWatch]

56 minutes ago, Drala said:

 Or just how poorly educated the kids are.  There's lots to be concerned about with the TLC gloss on the Duggars' lifestyle, but for me, the educational neglect is especially problematic.  The homeschooling crap flies just under the radar for people who watch the show and don't know anything about the ATI/IBLP curriculum.               

I remember one episode when Jessa was supervising one of the little boys doing his school lessons on the computer.   He was in serious distress (almost in tears) and was trying to tell Jessa that he couldn't figure out the arithmetic problems because he didn't have enough fingers to count that high.  That was good for a laugh, but the poor kid was serious and Jessa just sent him back to the computer and told him he had to sit there until he could figure it out.  Then, she smiled a snarky smile and rolled her eyes.

[Mothership]

 

Spoiler

from 14 kids and pregnant again

at the 6:15 mark is my favorite SOTDRT outcome.  Jill can't do the math that 10 boys would be twice as many as 5 girls.  How old was she in the first special? 12?

[choralcrusader8613]

1 minute ago, Mothership said:

at the 6:15 mark is my favorite SOTDRT outcome.  Jill can't do the math that 10 boys would be twice as many as 5 girls.  How old was she in the first special? 12?

She would have been 13 when the first special came out in 2004.

[catlady]

7 minutes ago, Mothership said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

from 14 kids and pregnant again

at the 6:15 mark is my favorite SOTDRT outcome.  Jill can't do the math that 10 boys would be twice as many as 5 girls.  How old was she in the first special? 12?

I remember this from way back, too.  even at the time, long before I knew how badly JB and Meechelle were damaging their kids, I was alarmed at how she struggled with it (felt badly for her, still do).

[Wenny]

17 hours ago, colors_outside15 said:

All right ... confession time. At least it's confession to fellow FJs ... 

So, after I left, I started seeing the Duggars on TV. I was so jealous. (That tells you something about my "childhood" right there). The mom talked quietly, the dad seemed loving, the family took trips, everyone was kind ... I found it super calming to hear them talk and to dream about having a kind family. The Duggars created that fantasy for me because I didn't have the perspective of a healthy, happy family. At some point, I felt so lonely and so detached from this "new" world (aka the world) I didn't understand, that I wrote to Boob & Meechele. ... They wrote back, and honestly, they were lovely. (Now, I know they are creepy, but in a personalized email when I didn't know better, they sounded like the dream family I watched on TV). I had only been out for just a year, but I missed my buddies so much, and they were comforting, reassuring, had advice, and offered me some "options" free of charge. When I got that email, I felt so worthy and so loved. I kinda picture Derick being in a similar position. His dad died suddenly, but he carried on the Pistol Pete thing. Then, college was over and Pistol Pete was gone, which prolly felt like losing his dad again. I don't know when Cathy got remarried, but if it coincided with Derick graduating .. maybe he wasn't ready to live with his stepdad ... maybe he doesn't like his stepdad. So, he saw a "loving, Christian family" on TV and wrote to them ... they wrote back, and being in the area, Derick finally had a family again. Between the death of his dad and "losing" Pistol Pete, it doesn't surprise me that Derick would cling to his religion, and to try to find a male role model for his life.

 

Same here. I wrote to them after my dad took his life and I had to Baker Act my mom. At the age of 17 I had to bury half my family and keep my mother from joining them. I got weirdly religious for about a month and looked up to their "unwavering blind faith." 

After a good year of medication and a amazing therapist (seriously she laid on the floor and had our session that way because I couldn't talk without having a panic attack sitting up), I realized that you can have trust in the Gods BUT it is healthy to say "I need help, real person to person help."   

 

[NeverAFundie]

I think one of the most academically fascinating aspects to this whole dynamic is "when does a kidult raised in this environment begin to bear conceptual responsibility for continuing to live this way."  I know that the opinions around here vary WIDELY on that issue, and honestly, I can understand just about where everyone is coming from on this.  On the one hand, it is straight up abuse and neglect to raise children this way, and you do not equip them to function in the real world.  On the other hand, we ALL reach a point in our lives where, as adults, the state of our lives can no longer be blamed on our upbringing.  The extent of this debate really came to the forefront here last year, with the molestation scandal and the resulting discussions of apportioning blame among Josh himself and JB/Michelle for what happened, and the Ashley Madison scandal and the resulting discussions of whether Anna had reached a point where people should no longer empathize with her because she was far enough into adulthood to bear responsibility for continuing to stay in her marriage and cling to her beliefs.

I am personally in the camp of giving kidults in this environment a pretty big heap of "benefit of the doubt" because they just weren't taught basic coping skills, or even an accurate representation of what the world is like. But every single time someone would post a contrary opinion, I could always see where they were coming from.  It's one of the reasons I love this place.  Yes, the snarking is fun.  But make no mistake--it's also extremely important intellectual criticism of and conversation about a group of movements (fundamentalism) that I, personally, believe pose a tremendous threat to personal freedom and autonomy.  And that is a big effing deal.

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

ET and The Inquisitr are reporting that Josh and Anna have been sighted furniture shopping with the Wallers. Still no post rehab pics.

[GeoBQn]

58 minutes ago, Mothership said:

Anyone know how to contact Jon Krakauer?  This is exactly his kind of book.  I highly recommend "Under the Banner of Heaven"

I'd be ok with either John Krakauer, or the women who made "Jesus Camp" and "12th & Delaware."

[vienna]

It seems that Smug went out for the first time. Buying furniture seems reasonable. Anna might not be able to stay in the Girls room to fullfill all of his sexual need so that the devil will never ever find a gate to joshes heart again...

I am looking Forward to see where they end up. My guess is the house Josh "sold" the the Duggar lawyer when teh lawsuit came up...

http://www.inquisitr.com/2940614/josh-duggar-spotted-out-first-time-since-rehab-what-was-he-up-to-now/

 

 

[Sundaymorning]

So, according to this article, Pecan and Pris are visiting them? Also, the article said that Josh and Anna didn't seem to pick furniture out for themselves, but for Pecan and Pris? Unless Pecan wants to move to Tontitown to be Joshley's chaperone, the furniture was probably for J&A. But still, I do find it interesting that apparently, Pecan and Pris are there with them.

[2manyKidzzz]

@Wenny  Bless you and glad you found a good therapist. So sorry you had to experience this. 

[OodOnTheLoo]

On March 11, 2016 at 1:11 AM, Sweet Fellowship said:

I'll bet Josh has lost weight and some hair. Maybe he's even grown a beard.

I would be shocked if he has a beard. Jim Bob does not approve of them and I have a feeling he will be squarely under JimBoobs thumb for quite a while.

[Jucifer]

1 hour ago, NeverAFundie said:

I think one of the most academically fascinating aspects to this whole dynamic is "when does a kidult raised in this environment begin to bear conceptual responsibility for continuing to live this way."  I know that the opinions around here vary WIDELY on that issue, and honestly, I can understand just about where everyone is coming from on this.  On the one hand, it is straight up abuse and neglect to raise children this way, and you do not equip them to function in the real world.  On the other hand, we ALL reach a point in our lives where, as adults, the state of our lives can no longer be blamed on our upbringing.  The extent of this debate really came to the forefront here last year, with the molestation scandal and the resulting discussions of apportioning blame among Josh himself and JB/Michelle for what happened, and the Ashley Madison scandal and the resulting discussions of whether Anna had reached a point where people should no longer empathize with her because she was far enough into adulthood to bear responsibility for continuing to stay in her marriage and cling to her beliefs.

I am personally in the camp of giving kidults in this environment a pretty big heap of "benefit of the doubt" because they just weren't taught basic coping skills, or even an accurate representation of what the world is like. But every single time someone would post a contrary opinion, I could always see where they were coming from.  It's one of the reasons I love this place.  Yes, the snarking is fun.  But make no mistake--it's also extremely important intellectual criticism of and conversation about a group of movements (fundamentalism) that I, personally, believe pose a tremendous threat to personal freedom and autonomy.  And that is a big effing deal.

NeverAFundie, I'm glad you were never a fundie! and I appreciate your post.

I was raised fundie and it stopped making sense to me when I was younger than a pre-teen. Even though I officially left the religion when I went off to school, it continued to haunt me. I couldn't have a beer with friends without feeling like I was putting my soul in danger. This went for wearing jeans, makeup and jewelry too, listening to the music I loved, ect., so many things. This shit kept me up at night for years.  It was like my own personal horror movie that followed me around wherever I went.

I love horror movies, BTW, especially the classic old ones.  In a way I've always felt at home watching them.  Not to be too dramatic but the fear was familiar 

This feeling of impending doom lasted until I was about in my mid 30s. I knew intellectually that that fundie stuff was nonsense but childhood programming is powerful stuff. 

If I hadn't been so stubborn inside (but sweet on the outside)  I really don't know when or if I would have broken free. It scares me a little to think about it. I think it depends on what your psychological make-up is and what your BS switch is set to.

I feel for and kind of understand why some fundies leave and some stay even as adults.

We're all speshul snowflakes

 

 

[vienna]

Thanks @Jucifier for this great and interesting post. It is so intersting to hear from People who were raised fundi and managed to break free. Respect for that. To overcome childhood programming is a major Thing.

[infooverload]

Has anyone heard the fear tactics used by preachers being similar to tactics used by car salesman. The whole idea of using fear to impede thinking and a sense of urgency to make a decision. A side note for the next 2 weeks The Thinking Atheist podcast is dedicating their episodes to the topic of home schooling cults. He is going to cover the Gothard and Duggar scandals.