Golden Age Detectives

[EmCatlyn]

Okay @nausicaa -- which do you like best?  I like Josephine Tey better than Ngaio Marsh, and I only like the Miss Marple novels, not Poirot so much.  Patricia Wentworth's Miss Silver is not bad either.  (I do like a few Poirot novels--in spite of Poirot.  The Murder of Roger Ackroyd Is terrific, and Ten Liittle Indians/And Then There Were None is classic.)

[sawasdee]

@EmCatlyn Thank you!

I love Josephine Tey -  I read the The Daughter of Time (for the first time) when I was about 12, and it led to my lifelong devotion to the cause of Richard III. Also loved Brat Farrar, The Franchise Affair and The Singing Sands - oh hell, loved all of them!

Miss Silver! I had forgotten about her - I had all the books in paperback when I lived in the UK - now I'll need to find them online.

Have you read John Carter Dickson/Dickson Carr?  Or Marjorie Allingham?

[nausicaa]

You have no idea how excited this thread makes me.

I totally understand what people mean by Poirot being annoying, but he makes me laugh. The thing is, I began reading Agatha Christie when I was 12 years old and was so inspired by the books. They got me interested in the 20s and 30s, they got me wearing vintage clothes, they got me interested in the Middle East and were a major motivation for living there for a while. Agatha Christie is beyond a favorite author, her books almost offer a structure to my life. I used to only let myself read two new Christies a year, one at Christmas and one in the spring. I only have four books left so I now space it out to one unread book every spring. So Poirot is like a kooky but kindly godfather at this point.

I read Ngaio Marsh, and appreciate that she's a good writer, but she doesn't just do it as much for me. I do prefer Troy to Harriet Vane though. I really like Patricia Wentworth and have been working through her stuff. Margery Allingham is a good writer, but can be hit or miss for me in terms of engaging characters.

I often get book recommendations, and almost always hate them. So when an octogenarian I worked with brought in Miss Pym Disposes for me to read, I gritted my teeth. And then I read it and adored it. Haven't read another of hers that I love as much, but really liked Brat Farrar. (And if you love that book, Mary Stewart based The Ivy Tree on its structure. Highly recommend.)

@sawasdee I love John Dickson Carr! I find though that some of his "Carter Dickson" books aren't as strong. Apparently he had a lot of money problems throughout his life and so would rush out a book under the Dickson name when he really need to pay some bills, and for me, it shows. Also don't like the ones that take place in America as much. But I love Three Coffins, Nine Wrong Answers, and The Mystery of the Green Capsule. 

Another recommendation: Georgette Heyer. She wrote a few (maybe 10?) contemporary murder mysteries (so 30s through 50s) to break up the Regency romances (skip Penhallow though). She's the only writer I've found who has as much charm as Christie. My favorite of hers is Behold, Here's Poison. I also love The Red House Mystery, by A.A. Milne. He wrote it for his dad who loved murder mysteries, but then never wrote another because he thought he wasn't any good at it. 

 

[EmCatlyn]

21 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

@EmCatlyn Thank you!

I love Josephine Tey -  I read the The Daughter of Time (for the first time) when I was about 12, and it led to my lifelong devotion to the cause of Richard III. Also loved Brat Farrar, The Franchise Affair and The Singing Sands - oh hell, loved all of them!

Miss Silver! I had forgotten about her - I had all the books in paperback when I lived in the UK - now I'll need to find them online.

Have you read John Carter Dickson/Dickson Carr?  Or Marjorie Allingham?

Ah, are you a Ricardian? I too was swayed in that direction by the  Daughter of Time.   The strongest argument that Richard didn't kill his nephews is that all the evidence does suggest that this was not the sort of thing he would do--and didn't need to, since the kids were bastards. 

My other favorite Josephine Tey is Brat Farrar.  I love the way this absolutely decent guy starts out to perpetrate a fraud, just because he wants horses in his life.  And then it turns out that his role is to remove a worse criminal and to be cherished and accepted by the family.  

I don't like Allingham as much as some of the others. I find Campion pompous/slow.  And never could get into Carr, though I know a lot of people who are fans.  

 

[sawasdee]

@nausicaa and @EmCatlyn Loving this thread!

Yes, Ricardian here! And how could I forget Miss Pym Disposes? The Noble Gesture at the end, by the one for whom the crime was committed.....

I'm another one who likes the Georgette Heyer crime novels - I do like Sgt Hemingway who is so beautifully down to earth, and Hannasyde is very humane and empathetic most of the time.

Like Nausicaa, I started reading Agatha Christie young - I vividly remember finding some paperbacks at my sister's house when I was ten. She lived by the sea, and I spent my summer holidays there,going to the beach for most of the day - which gave me plenty of time for reading. I loved both Poirot and Miss Marple, and even the outliers like the Harley Quinn stories.I think Cat Among the Pigeons was the very first one I read -  and a lifetime addiction was begun.

I also like the Appleby stories by Michael Innes, and the Gervase Fen books by Edmund Crispin. I think the Golden Age really goes on to the very early 1960s, not jjust pre WWII.

Any more recommendations?

 

 

[EmCatlyn]

43 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

You have no idea how excited this thread makes me.

I totally understand what people mean by Poirot being annoying, but he makes me laugh. The thing is, I began reading Agatha Christie when I was 12 years old and was so inspired by the books. They got me interested in the 20s and 30s, they got me wearing vintage clothes, they got me interested in the Middle East and were a major motivation for living there for a while. Agatha Christie is beyond a favorite author, her books almost offer a structure to my life. I used to only let myself read two new Christies a year, one at Christmas and one in the spring. I only have four books left so I now space it out to one unread book every spring. So Poirot is like a kooky but kindly godfather at this point.

I read Ngaio Marsh, and appreciate that she's a good writer, but she doesn't just do it as much for me. I do prefer Troy to Harriet Vane though. I really like Patricia Wentworth and have been working through her stuff. Margery Allingham is a good writer, but can be hit or miss for me in terms of engaging characters.

I often get book recommendations, and almost always hate them. So when an octogenarian I worked with brought in Miss Pym Disposes for me to read, I gritted my teeth. And then I read it and adored it. Haven't read another of hers that I love as much, but really liked Brat Farrar. (And if you love that book, Mary Stewart based The Ivy Tree on its structure. Highly recommend.)

@sawasdee I love John Dickson Carr! I find though that some of his "Carter Dickson" books aren't as strong. Apparently he had a lot of money problems throughout his life and so would rush out a book under the Dickson name when he really need to pay some bills, and for me, it shows. Also don't like the ones that take place in America as much. But I love Three Coffins, Nine Wrong Answers, and The Mystery of the Green Capsule. 

Another recommendation: Georgette Heyer. She wrote a few (maybe 10?) contemporary murder mysteries (so 30s through 50s) to break up the Regency romances (skip Penhallow though). She's the only writer I've found who has as much charm as Christie. My favorite of hers is Behold, Here's Poison. I also love The Red House Mystery, by A.A. Milne. He wrote it for his dad who loved murder mysteries, but then never wrote another because he thought he wasn't any good at it. 

 

I know what you mean by an author or book who profoundly influenced your interests and tastes.  I have a few of those too. Dorothy Sayers, definitely, and I must admit, Georgette Heyer's historical romances. I liked Heyer's detective novels (I read them before Sayers or Christie) but except for Envious Casca, none have stayed with me.   On the other hand, there're a half-dozen Heyer romances that, though I set them aside in college (not feminist, derivative, etc) I was happy to rediscover in my forties.  They are funny, the history is amazingly accurate, and If reading them as an adolescent didn't stop me from being a feminist, they probably are politically harmless (This is sort of related to the Barbie and so forth discussion in the Duggar forum.)

I love Mary Stewart's Arthurian Legend books, but most of the 20th century settings didn't appeal to me much.  I will check on The Ivy Tree.

Moving to contemporary mystery writers now, do you know the Laurie King series of Mary Russell mysteries?  Mary meets Sherlock Holmes when she is 15 and they become partners. The series is set in the WW I and 1920s mostly (King moved Holmes a little forward in time, making him only around 45 when her series begin, I think.).  They end up in the Middle East a couple of times and in the States, and it is mostly an echo of a lot of the Golden Age topics and settings but with a strong late-20th. Early-21st century flip.  You might like them if you haven't come across them yet.

(Such a nice feeling to be able to babble about books and Duggars.  FJ is saving my life this last week or so.)

[sawasdee]

Ooooh - not even heard of Laurie King - will be off in search......

Like you, really enjoyed Mary Stewart's Arthurian series, enjoyed her contemporaries as a young teen, but when I reread them found I only really enjoyed My Brother Michael.

Loved Georgette Heyer as a teen, and still enjoy her. Frederica, The Grand Sophy and The Nonesuch still can make me laugh out loud!  And as for The Devil's Cub..... The Spanish Bride got me started reading biographies and journals of 19th century military leaders (as a teenager), and helped spark a continuing love of history. The real Harry Smith was an amazing guy, and Ladysmith in South Africa is named after Juana. I believe his autobiography is still in print - I borrowed it from my library over 45 years ago.......

I do read contemporary crime fiction as well (love Ian Rankin, Peter Robinson), but always seem to go back to the Golden Age writers. Thank the FSM I can get most of them as ebooks, as I don't think I would find them in a bookstore here!

[EmCatlyn]

The first Laurie King "Mary Russell" novel is The Beekeeper's Apprentice which is one of the best in the series. The second one, A Monstrous Regiment of Women, has a cameo appearance by Peter Wimsey (though he is not identified by name). The others tend to blur in my mind, but there are all sorts of neat cross-references and allusions.  It is more "thriller" than "cozy." But generally a good series.

You mention some of my favorite Heyer's--except for the Spanish Bride. Although the real story is fascinating, Heyer's jingoism got to me. And, as an adolescent, I had little patience with her mangled Spanish. (I am a native speaker.). Two other favorites were Arabella and Venetia. Oh, and False Colours.  (Darn spellchecker wants to change it to "colors".)

 

[sawasdee]

Loved Venetia! Bath Tangle was another favourite. And how did I forget An Unknown Ajax?Ones I never really liked were Cotillion, Friday's Child, and, especially, A Civil Contract.

[clueliss]

14 hours ago, sawasdee said:

@EmCatlyn Thank you!

I love Josephine Tey -  I read the The Daughter of Time (for the first time) when I was about 12, and it led to my lifelong devotion to the cause of Richard III. Also loved Brat Farrar, The Franchise Affair and The Singing Sands - oh hell, loved all of them!

Miss Silver! I had forgotten about her - I had all the books in paperback when I lived in the UK - now I'll need to find them online.

Have you read John Carter Dickson/Dickson Carr?  Or Marjorie Allingham?

Before I moved I was involved more with the KC chapter of Sisters in Crime.  Author Nancy Pickard used to have a book dissection group that met monthly.  One of the books we read, dissected and discussed was The Daughter of Time.  

[sawasdee]

@clueliss I'm glad you've read it - what did Nancy Pickard think of it? I do like her books -the ones I've read have had New England settings.

[clueliss]

She loved it.  But that group was aimed at looking at how the authors did things in their writing.  it was for both writers and readers.  

I highly recommend The Virgin of Small Plains and The Scent of Rain & Lightning.  (Scent is being made into an Indie movie - she's so excited).   Stand alones.  Set in Flint Hills Kansas.  

I learned so much from her insight during those group meetings.   She recently asked folks a question on Facebook - wanted people to reply if there was food on the first 3 pages of the novel they were reading (wit the novel and author).   That ties to something we discussed in that group.  

 

[sawasdee]

Has anyone read the Sister Fidelma series by Peter Tremayne, set in 7th century Ireland? I think they are some of  my favourite mysteries ever, along with Ellis Peter's Brother Cadfael. I do like a good historic mystery!

[EmCatlyn]

59 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

Has anyone read the Sister Fidelma series by Peter Tremayne, set in 7th century Ireland? I think they are some of  my favourite mysteries ever, along with Ellis Peter's Brother Cadfael. I do like a good historic mystery!

I love the Brother Cadfael novels.  I couldn't get into Sister Fidelma much-- may have tried to read it at the wrong time.   But Margaret Frazer's Sister Frevisse is wonderful, and the Joliffe the Player series, which sort of spun out of the Sister Frevisse novels is great also.

What I like about both Ellis Peters and Frazer is that their medieval world is not at all barbaric, and largely historically accurate.  Frazer argues in one of her notes that our image of the Middle Ages derives from misconceptions that it was worse than the Tudor period for the common people when in fact it was better.  Fraser was a Ricardian.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

17 hours ago, sawasdee said:

I think the Golden Age really goes on to the very early 1960s, not jjust pre WWII.

Since you said this . . . and since others have moved to modern mystery writers:

Is anyone else a Nero Wolfe fan?  Rex Stout is one of my favorite authors evah!

I also adore Dick Francis - probably my absolute fav in the mystery world.

I'd like to re-read Dell Shannon's books (mostly those with Lt. Mendoza).  In my tweens, I was heavily invested in their world.

Also on my shelf:  all the Cat Who books, Tony Hillerman, some John MacDonalds, and Jonathan Kellerman.  

I'm pretty much a straight e-book reader these days, and very sad that the early Francis's haven't all be re-released.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I enjoy mystery fiction in general, but my favorite sub-genre is historical mystery fiction. Ellis Peters, Lindsay Davis (Marcus Didius Falco), and Elizabeth Peters (Amelia Peabody) are my main authors. I'll be adding everyone's recommendations above to my library list. A recommendation for a good book is a wonderful thing. 

Has anyone else read Talking About Detective Fiction by P.D. James? She spends a whole chapter on the Golden Age. She lists many authors I had never heard of, with a note that they are out of print. My Golden Age reading has been limited to Agatha Christie, Ngaio Marsh, and Margery Allingham. I worked my way through Agatha Christie's works (word play intended) in junior high and high school and then dove in to Ngaio Marsh's books. I have only read a few of Margery Allingham's books. They seem to be hard to find and I don't remember enjoying them enough to look very hard.

@SpoonfulOSugar, I've dabbled in reading Nero Wolfe. Rex Stout produced such a long list of books; I've only read a dozen or so. I also like Dick Francis, P.D. James, Martha Grimes, J.A. Jance, Tony Hillerman, James D. Doss, Margaret Coel, Faye Kellerman, Marcia Muller, Sharyn McCrumb, and Arthur Conan Doyle. I may have forgotten an author or two? My DH loves discovering "new" authors for me. <3

Would it be a good idea to start a new thread to separate out the current mystery works from this thread of Golden Age Detectives, or is everyone happy to let the thread drift? 

[sawasdee]

Marcus Didius Falco is one of my favourites too - and marvellous Amelia Peabody (I adored Rameses as a child!).

@SpoonfulOSugar Dell Shannon! I've never found anyone else who read the Lt Mendoza series! I found most of them secondhand in hardback in the Charing Cross Rd in London - a road then full of bookshops. Really enjoyed them, in those innocent days before scandals in the LAPD.

@WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? Not so mad about Rex Stout, but yes to the rest of your list, with the addition of Jonathan Kellerman, Kathy Reichs, Ian Rankin, Peter Robinson and Reginald Hill.

I worked at one time as a Tour Manager, and Sharyn McCrumb wrote a brilliant book called 'Missing Susan', about a tour manager trying to kill a client during a tour of England - comedy gold!

Thread drift happens - especially when you are talking books.....

[ofDany]

I loved the early Cat Who books, although some of the more recent ones just irritate me. I also liked the Mrs. Pollifax books and Elizabeth Peters, although I preferred the Vicky Bliss books to the Amelia Peabody ones.

Kathy Reichs is excellent.

[EmCatlyn]

@WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

You may already know this, but Elizabeth Peters also writes under the name of Barbara Michaels.  In real life, she is an Egyptologist --Barbara Mertz.  

I love the Amelia Peabody mysteries ( and love the way she plays with names --in real life, the Peabody sisters of Salem hung out with Ralph Waldo Emerson and Bronson Alcott. The youngest, Sophie, married Nathaniel Hawthorne. The oldest one, Elizabeth, never married.  She was a famous educator. The middle sister, Mary, was the wife of Horace Mann, another famous educator.)

But I really like Peter's series of Jacquelyn Kirby books too.  She wrote more Amelia Peabodies, but the Jacquelyn ones are a lot of fun as well. (I was less caught up with the Vicky Bliss books, but they are good too @ofDany) 

@sawasdee and other Ricardians, you may enjoy The Murders of Richard III which is a mystery set among Ricardians.  She also wrote another Jacquelyn Kirby set in a Romance Writer's convention, Die for Love.  Those and the first three of the Amelia Peabodies are my favorites.

I am not a fan of Nero Wolfe and couldn't get into Dick Francis.  I like character driven novels as well as clever plots.  

Speaking of PD James. I particularly loved An Unsuitable Job for a Woman.  In general, I do find Dalgliesh a bit of a stick, but the plotting and dialogue is great.

I don't think we need another thread.  I just wonder if we can snark at each other for thread drift when we inevitably drift to discussing fundies in this thread.

[EmainMacha]

I have died and gone to thread heaven!

@sawasdee- I love the Sister Fidelma mysteries! Have you ever read any of the Brehon Mara books by Cora Harrison? Set in Tudor times so interesting look at the time in which the Brehons became less relevant to Irish legal life.

@WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?- Have you read any of the Matthew Bartholomew books by Susanna Gregory? It's a historical murder series set in 14th century Cambridge. She also writes the Thomas Chaloner series set in 17th century London.

Shardlake books by C J Sansom are good but I found the 4th one hard to get through.

Amelia Peabody books got me through uni and living abroad for the first time. Sad that there'll be no more as Barbara Michaels passed away I believe:(

Golden Age- Agatha Christie, Dorothy L Sayers, Ngaio Marsh, Georgette Heyer. The Man in the Brown Suit gets read at least once a year.

Sorry for just spilling that all out. My love for historical detective/crime fiction is just so overwhelming and no-one else I know, bar my mum, likes the genre.

 

[OldMainPA]

For something set in England during and post World War I, the Maisie Dobbs (Winspear) series is quite lovely.  It has crime and psychology and sociology and history,  Should be read in chronological order to really enjoy the development of the characters.   I learned more about WWI than ever before.

[Palimpsest]

I have found my people!

I never got into Marsh but all the Golden Age authors mentioned here get a definite yes!

Sayers: I went off her later books because Lord Peter became too marvelous.  The fun went away once she'd married him off to Harriet Vane and Busman's Honeymoon was positively gagworthy.

Miss Silver, Miss Marple and Miss Pym were wonderful.  Brat Farrar and The Daughter of Time for the win.  You can keep Poirot, but I have a great affection for Tommy and Tuppence.  I've always liked The Postern of Fate although it isn't Christie's best novel at all.  She is actually describing her own childhood home in that book so if you read it in that context it is interesting.

I think I've read all of Heyer; the mysteries, the romances, and the more serious historical novels.  I love her humor but my favorites have changed over the years.  I quite detest These Old Shades but like The Quiet Gentleman much better than when I first read it.  My favorite of the Regencies are the ones that combine humor with a mystery - probably The Talisman Ring closely followed by The Reluctant Widow.  Jane Aiken Hodges' biography of Heyer is worth reading if you can get hold of a copy.   Heyer really wanted to write history and was quite contemptuous of her own lighter books.   I can recommend The Spanish Bride as particularly carefully researched and accurate historically.

Mary Stewart's earlier work I really liked, especially the Ivy Tree, Madam, Will You Talk?, and This Rough Magic but she went a bit woo-woo in the later books and probably Touch Not the Cat was the turning point.  I also loved the Arthurian series.

You've already covered Elizabeth Peters - another fan of Amelia Peabody and Jacqueline Kirby here.  Yes, Barbara Mertz died in 2013.  Sad.  I also love Ellis Peters and Susanna Gregory but I see a few unfamiliar names up there I should look for.   Dick Francis -  it depends.  Some I like better than others, depending on the main protagonist.  I liked In the Frame and Banker, for example but wasn't keen on the Sid Haley books.  I still think Mary Francis played the biggest role in "Dick Frances" the author.  

On more contemporary books set in the UK - people might like Elizabeth George.

For US history+detective I definitely recommend Sharyn McCrumb's Ballad series.  Her Elizabeth MacPherson mysteries are also pretty funny.

Keep them coming folks.

@sawasdee On another topic I saw mentioned somewhere else, I haven't thought of the Pern books for years. The Harper Hall trilogy was my favorite.  You might also like Mary Brown's Pigs Don't Fly series.  The Unlikely Ones is one of my favorite books. 

 

[sawasdee]

Thanks @Palimpsest I will check out Mary Brown.

I love this thread! Getting so many recommendations.......

Because of talking with @feministxtian, have been rereading my way through the entire series of Pern 9th Pass books - at the moment am halfway through Renegades 0f Pern........

[Myrtille]

On Wednesday, March 09, 2016 at 7:57 PM, EmCatlyn said:

I love the Brother Cadfael novels.  I couldn't get into Sister Fidelma much-- may have tried to read it at the wrong time.   But Margaret Frazer's Sister Frevisse is wonderful, and the Joliffe the Player series, which sort of spun out of the Sister Frevisse novels is great also.

What I like about both Ellis Peters and Frazer is that their medieval world is not at all barbaric, and largely historically accurate.  Frazer argues in one of her notes that our image of the Middle Ages derives from misconceptions that it was worse than the Tudor period for the common people when in fact it was better.  Fraser was a Ricardian.

I love Ellis Peters. I heard of Margaret Frazer but I've never read anything by her. I'll check her now and check the others too.

I love Agatha Christie. I know some of her books almost by heart. She is one of the first I read in English - my English teacher was a big fan of Miss Marple :).

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Myrtille said:

I love Ellis Peters. I heard of Margaret Frazer but I've never read anything by her. I'll check her now and check the others too.

I love Agatha Christie. I know some of her books almost by heart. She is one of the first I read in English - my English teacher was a big fan of Miss Marple :).

Margaret Frazer died a couple of years ago (cancer), but she wrote enough of the Sister Frevise novels (the first was The Novice's Tale) and a few excellent Joliffe novels (The first was A Play of Isaac).  Initially Margaret Frazer was two people who cowrote the first four novels in the Sister Frevisse series.  But one of them quit and Gail Frazer (her real name) continued with Frevisse and created the Joliffe series.  The two series intertwine a little. Joliffe and the players appear first in the second Frevisse novel (The Servant's Tale) but it is a while before Frazier introduces the players as a separate series.  

Frevisse is supposed to be the niece by marriage of Thomas Chaucer (son of Geoffrey) who was first cousin with the Beauforts as well as very wealthy. He appears occasionally in the earlier novels.  Thomas's only daughter, Alice, Duchess of Suffolk, also appears in a few novels. Allusions to Chaucer here and there are fun.