UPDATED: Josh Duggar Part 13 - No longer missing, Still a Jerk

[QuiverDance]

I am 100% on the go fund me train if Anna leaves Josh. 

[Whoosh]

I think her brother has said he would help her out.  I think it is nice that people would be willing to offer to help, but if I recall correctly, the first time the topic of a go-fund me for Duggar women came up (I believe about the time of the first scandal), it got a bit odd.  Not saying anything is odd here at all.  Just mentioning what came up last time.  Anyhoo - her brother has offered.  That much I do know.

[Jucifer]

6 hours ago, pnwgypsy said:

Imagine if they did see a real, professional counsellor. How is that person going to unwind 20 plus years of cult brainwashing. Would they even attempt to or is it not professional to tell clients their "deeply held religious beliefs" are a major part of their problems?

Mine did. I'm so glad I finally found her.

She just listened and validated my feelings. 

She was very 'professional'  but I could tell that this cult stuff kind of freaked her out. Her eyes would get really big. . Thank goodness she stuck with me. I'll be eternally grateful for her help.

[Dandruff]

I believe Jesus will be moving in with Josh and Anna like never before.  He'll be in the bedroom, helping to watch the kids, and repeatedly quoted by Josh in lieu of anyone giving a damn what Josh has to say.  I see Josh and Anna's conversations centering around events, the kids, what's for dinner, and occasional polite questions and apologies from Josh.  She'll try to like him and trust him, but will always be thinking twice.

[SassyPants]

4 hours ago, anotherone said:

Instead of Televangelist, JB chose the political office route.  There was something I read in the ATI literature that said, besides filling the quiver, you were supposed to get active in local political offices, school boards, library board, etc. to influence in a grassroots way..  Then those people will start moving up and cause real influence.  So JB did get up to state senate (or something similar) and Josh got to be a main guy in DC (I forget the organization.)  Not too shabby if you think about it, considering neither one had experience or much of an education. 

All was going pretty well, and even the sister-groping didn't do much to stop them. It was explained away pretty easily and forgiven quickly by their own kind.  It was all the Ashley Madison breach that brought them down.  They were on the way up and forging paths in politically active organizations.  And I think the goal was to move Ben in there next. 

That's what is scariest to me, that the AM breach was such a freak accident, like a rare storm that Josh just happened to be there, right place right time.  What if that never happened?  They would still be plowing forward, gaining momentum.  At the time the viewership was at an all time high.  Everyone did seem to love them.

Thank god for computer hackers...

School and library boards?

Why, when you do not believe in education or giving your children the freedom to read or the access to books?

LOGIC fail.

[Bad Wolf]

2 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

School and library boards?

Why, when you do not believe in education or giving your children the freedom to read or the access to books?

LOGIC fail.

To influence the curriculum and reading material with their fundie values.

[Georgiana]

29 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I believe Jesus will be moving in with Josh and Anna like never before.  He'll be in the bedroom, helping to watch the kids, and repeatedly quoted by Josh in lieu of anyone giving a damn what Josh has to say.  I see Josh and Anna's conversations centering around events, the kids, what's for dinner, and occasional polite questions and apologies from Josh.  She'll try to like him and trust him, but will always be thinking twice.

Maybe Josh and Anna should take a decorating tip from Michael (Bates) and Brandon and put some Ten Commandments tablets in their bedroom.  Josh could use the reminder against adultery and coveting thy neighbor's wife.  

[SassyPants]

12 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

To influence the curriculum and reading material with their fundie values.

BUT...in theory, the fundies would never be interfacing with that material.

So would the goal be to increase recruits?

Again, logic fail.

Chances of a library being filled with only Bibles and Waiting for Prince Charming books, lower than slim to none.

[CyborgKin]

2 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

The move "The Negotiator" starring Samuel L Jackson and Kevin Spacey.  He talks about exactly this. How it shows the guy is accessing the so and so cortex of the brain so that means he's lying.

When did movies start containing accurate science?

[anotherone]

10 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

BUT...in theory, the fundies would never be interfacing with that material.

So would the goal be to increase recruits?

Again, logic fail.

Chances of a library being filled with only Bibles and Waiting for Prince Charming books, lower than slim to none.

You might be missing the point.  Their kids don't go there (library, schools), just us normals.  But they still would like to have creationism and prayer put in the schools.

[Jucifer]

19 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

BUT...in theory, the fundies would never be interfacing with that material.

So would the goal be to increase recruits?

Again, logic fail.

Chances of a library being filled with only Bibles and Waiting for Prince Charming books, lower than slim to none.

One of the workarounds I discovered as a Fundie kid was to put book jackets of 'approved' books onto unapproved books. 

It also worked for record covers.

[Mothership]

Other women (and men) have taken back unfaithful spouses and made it work.  Granted, they probably weren't in the public eye--and they probably sought real professional counseling.  But it does happen.

Serious question:  all the snarking aside, is there a possibility that Anna and Smugs could really make this work?  What would it take?

 (okay, that was two questions)

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

School and library boards?

Why, when you do not believe in education or giving your children the freedom to read or the access to books?

LOGIC fail.

So no one else can have free access to books or education, of course. A godly nation should only read godly material. I remember that it was commonly discussed on TWoP how Gothardism has these pretensions of world domination (or at least to "save America), but it's impossible to do so when you limit your followers professions to tow truck operators, tree trimmers, and the like. Gothard has been more successful with his front groups that draw in mainstream conservatives, but given how much his organizations have been hemorrhaging money, I wonder how much impact those groups have really had.

[Hera]

24 minutes ago, Mothership said:

<snip>

Serious question:  all the snarking aside, is there a possibility that Anna and Smugs could really make this work?  What would it take?

 (okay, that was two questions)

Depends on what you mean by "make it work."  Stay married for the long haul?  Yes.  I honestly don't think either of them will file for divorce any time soon.  Josh is just coming off of 6 months of intense brainwashing and likely wants nothing more than to get back into his family's good graces and put this behind him.  Anna doesn't want to be divorced.  It goes against everything she has been taught her entire life.  

Will they have a fulfilling marriage?  I doubt it.  But, I doubt they would have anyway, since it's obvious that they don't really share common goals or interests.  Anna wants to live a fundie fairy tale.  Josh does not.  He will because he doesn't think he has any choice, but it won't make him happy in the long run, he will eventually cheat again or develop some other unhealthy coping mechanism, and that will make Anna unhappy. Maybe with real counseling and total honesty, they could make it work, but Prayhab Reprogramming and Anna being told to forgive and forget right fucking now pretty much obliterated any chance for honesty and soul searching.  Without that, there will be no rebuilding trust because they;re both just playing a designated role.  Josh cannot learn to trust Anna with his actual thoughts and desires, Gothard approved or not.  Anna cannot trust Josh to use the bathroom on his own because he's a sneaky lying liar who lies.   Without trust, then there isn't really much left to build on.    

[Catholic and NOT 'ebil']

7 hours ago, Gimme a Free RV said:

She should go around the house, humming it.

My phone thanks you for the Diet Coke it just took a bath in 

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, Jana814 said:

If Anna was divorce Josh I would hope their would be a kind hearted person who would help her out. When the Ashley Madison scandal I saw comments of people willing to help her for free. 

Maybe she would get help from perfect strangers--but does she know it?  Can she count on it?  She doesn't have anyone she trusts to tell her that she has options.  And she is afraid-- not just of facing the world alone with four or five kids but of not doing what God wants, of not doing what is best for her kids, of being selfish, of not being a good Christian wife.

As someone said above, Anna is faced with Hobson's choice.  None of the alternatives she is being offered are good.  And as we have noted, she wasn't prepared for this.

Maybe the worst thing that cults like this do is that they do not prepare people for things going wrong, for the best of plans being ruined, for trust to be betrayed.  The trust in Jesus is a good thing, but it can be abused.

[Sundaymorning]

45 minutes ago, Mothership said:

Other women (and men) have taken back unfaithful spouses and made it work.  Granted, they probably weren't in the public eye--and they probably sought real professional counseling.  But it does happen.

Serious question:  all the snarking aside, is there a possibility that Anna and Smugs could really make this work?  What would it take?

 (okay, that was two questions)

I agree with @Hera

To me, the main problem isn't even the cheating which took place, but the fact that the "quality" of their marriage would be, for ebil heathen standarts, probably considered poor anyway, even without Josh's philandering. I don't think they got married for the "right" reasons, and I'm not even sure if they really love each other, or, if divorce wasn't considered an unthinkable sin in their cult, would truly want to stay together in first place.

These are two young people who got married after they had found each other in a very limited pool of potential partners and they didn't even get the chance to try if they were really compatible with each other in the ways that happily married partners should be.

Can they make it work? Well depends on what you mean by "making it work"? Stay married? Sure, many people stay in bad marriages for decades. But to actually have a marriage where both partners are at least somewhat happy and content? No, I really don't think so.

[warriorblade8857]

1 hour ago, Hera said:

There will be no rebuilding trust because they're both just playing a Josh cannot learn to trust Anna with his actual thoughts and desires... Without trust, then there isn't really much left to build on.    

I'm of the opinion that real trust in 2nd-generation-plus Gothard marriages is rare or even impossible. First generation couples chose to become fundies, and their primary loyalty will always be to each other (and their kids). A 2nd-generation-plus couple's primary loyalty is to Gothardism, not to each other. How do you build real trust when you know that your spouse will choose Gothardism over you in a heartbeat?

I'm also of the opinion that true respect doesn't exist either after the first generation. Michelle and JB were equal partners in terms of making the decision to jump into Gothardism. JB had to have respected and listened to Michelle's opinions and ideas for that to happen. Josh and Anna have never been partners in anything, since they have been brought up to think of Josh as the headship. Anna's opinions (beyond all things child-centric) will always be "lesser".

[EmCatlyn]

6 hours ago, anotherone said:

<snip>

That's what is scariest to me, that the AM breach was such a freak accident, like a rare storm that Josh just happened to be there, right place right time.  What if that never happened?  They would still be plowing forward, gaining momentum.  At the time the viewership was at an all time high.  Everyone did seem to love them.

Thank god for computer hackers...

Though the Ashley Madison thing hurt them among the Fundies, the Duggars were taken off the air by TLC and Josh had to resign from his DC job because of the molestation scandal.  

While it is doubtful that he could have kept the DC job once the Ashley Madison stuff had come out, it is probable that the show would not have been negatively affected.   They would have talked about how even a godly young man like Josh can be tempted and fall, they would have done a bit about his repentance, and the show would not have suffered and Josh might now be doing the rounds with "I have sinned, but Jesus saved me."

There was nothing serendipitous about  the molestation scandal coming out.  If the Duggars hadn't been tooting their holier-than-thou horns so loudly about gays and trans people, the whole thing might still be a semi-secret, a rumor most people didn't take seriously.

Without the molestation scandal, the Ashley Madison thing would have had far less impact, and the Duggar parents would have come out looking good.  It is the molestation that the public has a problem with.  

I do agree that it was amazing coincidence that AM came out right after the other stuff. I bet Josh thought God was trying to tell him something, and hustled to confess all to Jim Bob.

 

 

[colors_outside15]

10 hours ago, pnwgypsy said:

Imagine if they did see a real, professional counsellor. How is that person going to unwind 20 plus years of cult brainwashing. Would they even attempt to or is it not professional to tell clients their "deeply held religious beliefs" are a major part of their problems?

deprogramming therapy (not the kind where you are kidnapped). lots of time, trust building, debriefing, asking questions that make you think about what life you've been forced to live, praise (praise can do a lot when you've never been praised/complimented growing up), etc. it's possible, but sure as hell not easy. i'm forever grateful to the main therapist i worked with after leaving. that person gave me a chance to lead MY life

[season of life]

4 hours ago, Whoosh said:

I think her brother has said he would help her out.  I think it is nice that people would be willing to offer to help, but if I recall correctly, the first time the topic of a go-fund me for Duggar women came up (I believe about the time of the first scandal), it got a bit odd.  Not saying anything is odd here at all.  Just mentioning what came up last time.  Anyhoo - her brother has offered.  That much I do know.

What happened with the go-fund me idea? 

I know Daniel Keller, her brother, offered her help. There was also a lawyer who offered to help her for free.

[Bad Wolf]

Anna's not ready for any major changes, and with 4 children, including an infant, it would be hard, even with her brother's help.

I do know couples who have been able to recover after infidelity, but it was hard work for both parties, and they didn't belong to a cult.

[EmCatlyn]

9 minutes ago, season of life said:

What happened with the go-fund me idea? 

I know Daniel Keller, her brother, offered her help. There was also a lawyer who offered to help her for free.

I think we discussed that if a bunch of strangers were to contact Anna saying that they had started a go-fund-me for her divorce, she would have been appalled, if not terrified. Unsolicited generosity can feel like intrusion.

Another problem with a go-fund-me for Anna would have been that the money would go to Josh or JB if she ended up staying with Josh (as she has).  

If/when Anna leaves Josh, she may find that she gets a lot of help and support that she can't imagine right now. But for a bunch of people to tell her that they will help her before she has given any indication that she wants to leave would, I suspect, make someone in her shoes very uncomfortable.

[Hera]

32 minutes ago, warriorblade8857 said:

I'm of the opinion that real trust in 2nd-generation-plus Gothard marriages is rare or even impossible. First generation couples chose to become fundies, and their primary loyalty will always be to each other (and their kids). A 2nd-generation-plus couple's primary loyalty is to Gothardism, not to each other. How do you build real trust when you know that your spouse will choose Gothardism over you in a heartbeat?

I'm also of the opinion that true respect doesn't exist either after the first generation. Michelle and JB were equal partners in terms of making the decision to jump into Gothardism. JB had to have respected and listened to Michelle's opinions and ideas for that to happen. Josh and Anna have never been partners in anything, since they have been brought up to think of Josh as the headship. Anna's opinions (beyond all things child-centric) will always be "lesser".

Like X 1000.  JB and Michelle have no idea how much they've screwed over their kids, their kids' futures and their grandkids who have to grow up in these disasters masquerading as partnerships by forcing them into this lifestyle.  

[season of life]

@EmCatlyn, Gotcha, thanks. Yeah, not a good idea.

Can't wait for pictures of newly released Josh. Did he drop some pounds due to stress (can't be easy knowing the public is aware of your dirty laundry) or is he still as porky as ever?