FLDS Leaders indicted

[Kittikatz]

@paganbaby thank-you!

I love new FLDS rabbit holes to wander down.

@seattlechic I keep waiting for the moment when it will get so bizarre on the inside of the FLDS that we start to see a mass exodus, but it seems like these people really are as isolated as they say, or the brainwashing/fear of the outside is so intense that, for most people, it dwarfs whatever the amount of crazy on the inside. 

[Howl]

My sense is that many people are leaving, but no idea of how many people are still dedicated to Warren Jeffs as prophet.  Many believed that on April 6, an apocalyptic earthquake would tumble down the walls of Warren Jeff's Texas prison and he would be freed. 

With Warren Jeff's imprisonment and subsequent crazy announcements, the breakup of the United Effort Plan, dismantling of the Yearning for Zion Ranch in Texas, recent changes in Short Creek government and this latest development plus other legal actions against the church, things are falling apart slowly.  A large core of believers remain, but many people have been marginalized or sent away to repent, with families broken up.  What is their motivation to stay?  Many people who have left FLDS are still living in Short Creek, making a bit of a bridge for those who want to leave.  One woman leaves cell phones hidden in bushes in town;  should someone want to leave, they can call for help.  

One of Warren Jeffs' crazy announcements limited sex to a few "seed bearers". At some point, there is going to be a drastic drop off in the number of followers, because most FLDS women are not having kids.  Warren Jeffs is certifiably bat-shit crazy.  Maybe Nephi is angling to take  Warren's place.  Palace intrigue, indeed. 

[seattlechic]

12 hours ago, Kittikatz said:

@paganbaby thank-you!

I love new FLDS rabbit holes to wander down.

@seattlechic I keep waiting for the moment when it will get so bizarre on the inside of the FLDS that we start to see a mass exodus, but it seems like these people really are as isolated as they say, or the brainwashing/fear of the outside is so intense that, for most people, it dwarfs whatever the amount of crazy on the inside. 

Seriously. I can't fathom how people can be so incredibly out of touch with reality. I mean, Colorado City is not in the middle of the Arctic FFS, it's in Arizona. It really baffles me. 

[Howl]

For people who don't engage the outside world (no gossip, no internet, no TV) and who are brainwashed from birth to see Warren Jeffs as a prophet of god, not too surprising.  What just occurred to me, though, is that if only seed bearers and a few select women are having kids, it might give some women time to think because they are not perpetually pregnant and caring for a bazillion kids.  It might give some young girls time to mature and not be married off at 14.  

The true believers still number in the thousands, though. 

[DaisyD]

No marriages and no babies (or very few) can only be a good thing (other than those poor few being raped while their "husband" holds their hand). It gives them all plenty of time to see the light and escape without having to worry about getting children out. 

[Gossamer1]

He didn't run away.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/08/lawyer-for-notorious-polygamist-says-escaped-mormon-may-have-experienced-the-miracle-of-rapture/

I just can't believe his lawyer went into court and said that with a straight face. 

[OyToTheVey]

27 minutes ago, Gossamer1 said:

He didn't run away.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/08/lawyer-for-notorious-polygamist-says-escaped-mormon-may-have-experienced-the-miracle-of-rapture/

I just can't believe his lawyer went into court and said that with a straight face. 

Besides the lawyers straight face, imagine being the court reporter that day. She has to sit there and type out everything that's being said. I'm sure she had to pause before trying to write that down.

[Howl]

Raptured?  Yup, that makes sense.  I suspect the lawyer said this with a great sense of humor.  She's a Federal Public Defender for Utah; she may have had more than a few WTF moments with her client.  I wonder if Lyle proposed; I'm sure he has seed bearer status going for him.

 

[Howl]

I keep returning to this thread in hopes that I'll read that Lyle has been captured. It will happen at some point. 

[paganbaby]

On 9/23/2016 at 8:49 AM, Howl said:

I keep returning to this thread in hopes that I'll read that Lyle has been captured. It will happen at some point. 

I wonder how embarrassing the details of the probable traffic stop will be. A young relative driving who claims to be a gay prostitute, as happened to Seth? Or just sitting the backseat eating salad while dressed in very un-FLDS fashion as happened to Warren? 

[theinvisiblegirl]

I've been away from FJ for a few months. Is Lyle still on the run?! Damn...

[Howl]

Because I used to live in SW Colorado, I keep up with the local paper (Cortez Journal) on line.  Just came across this today -- some speculation that Lyle Jeffs may be holed  up near Mancos, Colorado.  But it's just that -- idle speculation. For reference, Mancos is about 30 miles west of Durango, and about 4 miles from entrance of Mesa Verde National Park, in the southwest corner of Colorado. 

Over time, FLDS has bought parcels of land north of Mancos and now has a total of 180 acres, surrounded by national forest.  But it's interesting what is being done on that land.  There's speculation that an underground bunker has been built and people are not outside during the day.  Warren Jeffs stayed there when he was on the run. 

Here's the article -- interesting in that it highlights how bizarre and secretive the FLDS can be, which seemingly just brings more suspicion. 

FBI's search for FLDS leader turns to Mancos: Speculation rises concerning FLDS property in Mancos

http://www.cortezjournal.com/article/20161030/NEWS01/161029843/FBI's-search-for-FLDS-leader-turns-to-Mancos

In terms of the food stamp fraud trial scheduled for January 2017, Fox13 in Salt Lake City  says

Quote

A federal judge has ruled that Fundamentalist LDS Church members John Wayman and Seth Jeffs will not be tried separately from nine other people in a massive food stamp fraud case.

In an order issued Monday, U.S. District Court Judge Ted Stewart rejected defense requests to sever Wayman and Jeffs from the rest of the case and, alternatively, dismiss the indictment...

...Wayman and Jeffs are among 11 members of the FLDS Church accused of food stamp fraud and money laundering. They are accused of ordering faithful members of the Utah-based polygamous church to hand over Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program (SNAP) benefits to leadership. Federal prosecutors have claimed the scheme exceeds $12 million in taxpayer dollars and some of the money was used to purchase luxury vehicles.

Wayman and Jeffs are back in jail after the judge ruled they violated the terms of their release by meeting under orders from FLDS leader Warren Jeffs. Polygamist leader Lyle Jeffs (a brother of Warren Jeffs and Seth Jeffs) is considered a fugitive after escaping home confinement.

The defense is also trying to work a sincerely held religious belief angle, saying that their interpretation of Mormon faith requires members to donate to the collective common good -- including donation of food stamp debit cards. 

Again, from Fox13 in Salt Lake City:   FLDS member insists religious beliefs are ‘sincere’ in food stamp fraud case

Quote

A member of the Fundamentalist LDS Church accused of food stamp fraud is insisting he has “sincere religious beliefs” protected under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

In a court filing on Monday, John Wayman described how the FLDS faith has been a part of him since birth and he has had an “unwavering devotion.” His attorney, James Bradshaw, is using it to show that he should be able to launch a religious freedom defense to the criminal charges leveled against Wayman by the federal government...

...Some of the defendants are raising a “religious right,” arguing it is a part of their beliefs to consecrate their property to the church. The U.S. Attorney’s Office for Utah has asked a federal judge to block the FLDS from claiming a religious right, noting that Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program (SNAP) benefits are for the intended recipients only.

In his declaration, Wayman wrote that he has a commitment to the Law of Consecration...  

...Wayman also wrote that he believes his eternal salvation — and that of other FLDS members — is tied to their adherence to the United Order of Heaven. A “united order” is based on the early Mormon concept where members donate their property to the church, which doles out items according to wants and needs.

and yada yada.  Full text of article here http://fox13now.com/2016/09/20/flds-member-insists-religious-beliefs-are-sincere-in-food-stamp-fraud-case/

Copies of the filings are embedded in the article. 

[QuiverDance]

If I'm the judge, my first question is, why are you invoking the relinquishment of property by others as YOUR OWN religious right?  You give up your shit, that's your right.  You make someone else do it?  You're invoking their rights as your own.  Doesn't pass the sniff test. 

[DaisyD]

It is his sincerely held religious belief that others give him all of their money, duh.

[Howl]

This just in:   Loss of salvation doesn’t burden religion, government says in polygamous sect food stamp case

http://www.sltrib.com/blogs/polygamy/4541202-155/loss-of-salvation-doesnt-burden-religion

Quote

 

A brief filed Tuesday augments arguments prosecutors have been making throughout the case — that members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are not burdened by rules prohibiting the donation of food stamp benefits.

In one subheading titled, "Concerns that Defendants or Their Family Members May Lose their Eternal Salvation Does Not Amount to a Substantial Burden," prosecutors contend that courts have upheld that there is a difference between one's perceived religious experience and the actual religious practice. In the case of the FLDS defendants, they may perceive a loss of fulfillment by not being able to donate benefits from the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), but that is not the same as burdening their religious practice.

Prosecutors also attacked a defense claim that donating SNAP benefits to their church is no different than using the benefits to bake a dish to take to a church potluck. FLDS members weren't donating a plate of brownies, but rather their entire benefits, prosecutors argue, and then the bishop was deciding how to allocate those benefits or the food purchased with them.

The defendants "want to rewrite the rules to allow the FLDS Bishop — rather than the United States Congress — to determine who benefits from the food purchased with SNAP funds," prosecutors wrote.

Eleven members of the FLDS have pleaded not guilty to two counts of conspiracy. Prosecutors allege they were the ringleaders of a scheme to require parishioners to donate their SNAP benefits to the church.

When the benefits were used to buy food, church leaders decided who got some, prosecutors claim. Other times the benefits were used at an FLDS-controlled store and converted into cash, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.

Judge Ted Stewart is expected to rule within weeks on whether to dismiss the indictments.

 

If this "substantial burden" argument wins out and the judge rules in favor of the FLDS, we're all screwed.  

[SHERA]

Did anyone see this in the news yesterday? 

http://www.sltrib.com/home/4758309-155/another-flds-defendant-pleads-guilty-in

[quiversR4hunting]

5 hours ago, SHERA said:

Did anyone see this in the news yesterday? 

http://www.sltrib.com/home/4758309-155/another-flds-defendant-pleads-guilty-in

Yes. I wonder where and when they will find Lyle. 

Did you know that the SD encampment asked for more water and the county said we need an inspection to see the reason why you need more water? I think Seth is the leader in SD and IIRC they withdrew the request for more water. I can't find the article right now. I'll keep looking. 

I just found the follow up article. Ugh they granted the permit without the FLDS doing what the board askes. UGH! They will continue to think they are above the law if outsiders keep giving in. Ugh!

https://www.google.com/amp/rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/religious-sect-granted-permit-to-increase-water-at-compound-near/article_a5573fef-8c74-5ce3-a03a-00bcacf0d9fd.amp.html?client=ms-android-att-us 

[MarblesMom]

I live in SD and I can guarantee you no one wants extremists here.  

Then, again, there are some real idiots running counties here, so...

[quiversR4hunting]

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 11:45 PM, MarblesMom said:

I live in SD and I can guarantee you no one wants extremists here.  

Then, again, there are some real idiots running counties here, so...

I really wish the council would have stuck to their guns and required them to explain why they need the extra water. 

[DaisyD]

If he was raptured, it looks like God sent him back...

http://wjhl.com/2017/06/15/polygamous-sect-leader-lyle-jeffs-captured-after-1-year/?utm_content=buffer7af54&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I guess now we know why the SD compound didn't want an inspection. 

[47of74]

28 minutes ago, DaisyD said:

If he was raptured, it looks like God sent him back...

http://wjhl.com/2017/06/15/polygamous-sect-leader-lyle-jeffs-captured-after-1-year/?utm_content=buffer7af54&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I guess now we know why the SD compound didn't want an inspection. 

So when does Lord Dampnuts pardon him and his brother and offer them both cabinet positions?  It wouldn't surprise me given how their similar views concerning women.

[clueliss]

Quote

Prosecutors argued that he was a flight risk and shouldn't be released from custody, but a judge let him go on the basis that the other 10 defendants in the food stamp fraud case, who had already been released, had complied with court orders.

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/maryanngeorgantopoulos/lyle-jeffs-captured?utm_term=.et2y8DJWn#.lw3dbQwml

I hope someone said - told you so.  

[quiversR4hunting]

3 hours ago, DaisyD said:

If he was raptured, it looks like God sent him back...

http://wjhl.com/2017/06/15/polygamous-sect-leader-lyle-jeffs-captured-after-1-year/?utm_content=buffer7af54&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I guess now we know why the SD compound didn't want an inspection. 

I wonder how they got the info he was there! They don't seem to be the neighbors to let anyone come over for morning coffee and talk about farming.

Also, I wonder what else the police saw in the compound. 

[Howl]

THANK YOU @quiversR4hunting.  Sooooo excited!  Been waiting for the day when Lyle was (re)captured!!!!!!  Wasn't sure it would happen!   Whoohoo! 

And this is beyond weird: 

Jeffs was arrested in his vehicle, the FBI said, adding that the fugitive was living out of his car and was in the South Dakota area for at least two weeks. He is being held with no bond at Minnehaha County Jail in Sioux Falls in South Dakota.

Living out of his car?  Was he homeless?  Is there some chaos in the FLDS that left him without protection and shelter? 

[quiversR4hunting]

 

And this is beyond weird: 

Jeffs was arrested in his vehicle, the FBI said, adding that the fugitive was living out of his car and was in the South Dakota area for at least two weeks. He is being held with no bond at Minnehaha County Jail in Sioux Falls in South Dakota.

Living out of his car?  Was he homeless?  Is there some chaos in the FLDS that left him without protection and shelter? 

WOW! I missed that in the article! I figured he was on the compound. I guess that is what I get for assuming.

Like you @Howl I am so glad he is caught. I thought he wouldn't be caught because he was hidden in one of the many compounds. I am not shocked he is being held without bond.  I also want the answers to your questions- did the FLDS turn their back on one of the Jeffs?!