FLDS Leaders indicted

[zee_four]

On 2/27/2016 at 0:55 PM, Kittikatz said:

Just out of curiosity, how on earth does this sort of group get legal approvals to build this kind of compound? Are the planning rules so different in rural US? Or am i missing something? 

Here, we need an approved permit to build even a 4' tall fence/2' tall deck and any building or excavations need to get a permit and be built off of approved plans, drafted by people or companies with the correct certifications. Neighbours have a right to appeal anything that is slightly outside the permitted use or zoning for the area; as well, they may appeal any permits issued using the city planners discretionary powers. Appeals are made to quasijudicial boards set up for ths purpose, and those rulings can be appealed to the provincial court of appeal. City or town  planners and municipal building inspectors have to confirm the as built and inspect and approve all the plumbing/electrical/gas stuff every step of the construction. At the end, some sort of occupancy permit is granted that allows the use of the structure. Failure to comply means that the municipality can demolish or order demolished, any construction that is outside the permit or not on the apporved plans. I'm sure there are cases where steps are missed or slight discrrpencies are ignored, or where some rural areas may not be totally dilligent about enforcing planning standards for unoccupied buildings without electricity or water hook ups such as sheds/granaries, but I cannot imagine anyone being allowed to build something like these walled compounds the FLDS seem to like so much. 

Also, most municipalities have aerial photographs taken every year or two and scanned through with a computer program to looking for new structures or additions. If they see construction that no permit was granted, you can expect an inspection from property tax assessment and, usually, building inspectors. So, there isn't any way someone could secretly build this kind of thing either. 

Sorry for the long post, this is just strange to me.

Eh out west its generally the county that controls everything and some of these counties are massive and poor. Even the large county I'm from in Western Colorado has minimal services and it's wealthy as hell thanks to tourism and second home owners.  All of out communities aren't large enough to be considered cities and only a few have their own government. Others might call themselves a separate community but have nothing more than their own post office and are considered unincorporated parts of the county for other services. I know Washington County UT where Hildale is despite having St. George is even bigger.

 

Most if not all services in the Interior West (WY, CO, UT etc) are regionalized and privatized out here from ambulences to water to specialized support in schools. Like even the Denver area doesn't have municipal ambulance service let alone rural counties bigger than some states of only a few thousand people. Add that to lax Old West property laws like Make My Day and the resulting attitude of rugged indivualism continuing today and you get a lot of lax zoning laws.

 

One of my thesis papers was on fire mitigation in CO and even I was appalled how vague and almost non existent laws were even in some of the wealthiest most populated counties that worst of all had suffered catastrophic fires in the past few decades.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Interesting blog post from Nate Carlisle (reporter on polygamy at the Salt Lake Trib):

http://www.sltrib.com/blogs/polygamy/3630122-155/where-will-the-flds-go-from

I really think the most likely approach is to become ever more devout and try to earn redemption, which is unfortunate.

I wonder if a reasonable number of members could be persuaded to shift to the Centennial Park group.

[Howl]

On 3/8/2016 at 9:39 AM, daisyd681 said:

I have no issue with polygamy among consenting adults. The child brides are only a part of the problem with this group. By far the most upsetting and disturbing part, but only a part.

Yes, had they not been in the practice of raping young girls and calling it marriage, they would likely be going on much as before.  

Warren Jeffs' increasingly erratic edicts from prison are also driving nails in the coffin. One of the edicts demanded that married couples stop having sex or any physical contact and the first part of this article discusses ritualistic sex with "seed bearers".   How long are people gonna put up with THAT?   

http://fox13now.com/2015/09/30/polygamist-flds-church-limits-sex-to-seed-bearers-of-worthy-bloodline-court-document-says/

There will always be die-hard followers, but more are leaving every day because staying just isn't viable. However, this article estimates around 10,000 still left in the church -- that's still a lot of people. 

I also read that SNAP benefits are not being denied to any families with children in need, even those under legal suspicion. The benefits come in the form of debit cards, and where people are shopping is being carefully tracked. 

 

[DaisyD]

I've been thinking about it for a while now, and truly believe in Willie Jessop's change of heart. I've heard "The Sound of Silence" a couple of times since I read the article about him. Other than the fact that it is quite a worldly song for someone who's only supposed to listen to his cult's music, it takes an awful lot of introspection to find that kind of meaning in a song. I don't know about any of you but when I'm finding that kind of meaning in lyrics it's because I'm working through something. 

Also, I will never hear that song the same way again. 

[samurai_sarah]

19 hours ago, zee_four said:

(snip)

I also know the state is generally reluctant to take on the FLDS not just because the crazy Old West laws help the FLDS but mainstream Mormons don't want to draw attention especially national to them in fear that all their efforts to differentiate from their shared polygamous origins will be pushed back.

Wouldn't that be a reason to come out strongly against the FLDS? If this were my PR-campaign, I'd denounce the FLDS left, right and centre. And throw myself behind supporting law-enforcement. Until everyone and their great-uncle's goldfish knows "we are not those criminals, we're against them". After all, it's no secret that the LDS once practised polygamy. Why not own it, and take a stand against the abuses happening right now?

Sorry, just musing about the LDS' reluctance to take a stand.

[Kittikatz]

 @zee_four thanks for your explanation. That is just appalling... No wonder there seems to be so much damage when wild fires happen in the US. ..

[Howl]

When I lived in southwestern Colorado, our county (Montezuma County) had no building code of any kind.   Septic systems were stringently regulated, but that was it.   I recall  a SovCit type who resisted even that. 

Quote

 

From the current Montezuma County Web site: 

New construction and remodeling for commercial and industrial buildings or structures requires compliance with Uniform Building Code 1997 standards. Montezuma County does not license contractors.

Certificate of Occupancy: Montezuma County does not issue Certificates of Occupancy nor do we have a building department.

 

However, septic, plumbing, electrical are inspected through the state and these inspections are likely required for any type of mortgage loan. 

[SilverBeach]

http://fox13now.com/2016/05/23/federal-judge-delays-flds-food-stamp-fraud-trial-until-october/

More criminal FLDS fuckery.

[theinvisiblegirl]

One part of my mind says, "If they can't get 'em for abuse, get 'em for something. Anything." Kind of like how I feel OJ should have been found guilty but I'm perfectly fine with him being in jail for other crimes because it's where he belongs.

But then the other part of my mind says, "Fuck it. Keep discovering. You'll uncover some other, major crimes."

[DaisyD]

Just like the mob. Follow the money. They may never get them for the abuse stuff. It doesn't create a paper trail, but money always leaves evidence. 

[devoe364]

I believe a couple of the Bountiful FLDS members have been caught trafficking girls and are spending time in jail for it, although they didn't call it trafficking. 

Warren Jeffs is so batshit crazy that I just want him to spend the rest of his life in jail. I don't care for what. Honestly? Legalize polygamy.

Seriously. Make. It. Legal.

Every Polygamist male can legally marry as many women as he wants, as long as they are legally of age, and consent. This consent must be witnessed by someone who is NOT related to the bride or groom (or any of his other wives). The man is also responsible to SUPPORT all of his wives financially. That means no more bleeding the beast for the FLDS and similar groups. 

Should they continue the practice of polygamy without following the regulations, they should be charged and prosecuted fully.

While some diehards will see this as gentiles running their way of life, those who aren't diehards will realize that they can live their religious beliefs without fear of presecution, and I see membership going way down. 

 

[theinvisiblegirl]

36 minutes ago, devoe364 said:

I believe a couple of the Bountiful FLDS members have been caught trafficking girls and are spending time in jail for it, although they didn't call it trafficking. 

Warren Jeffs is so batshit crazy that I just want him to spend the rest of his life in jail. I don't care for what. Honestly? Legalize polygamy.

Seriously. Make. It. Legal.

Every Polygamist male can legally marry as many women as he wants, as long as they are legally of age, and consent. This consent must be witnessed by someone who is NOT related to the bride or groom (or any of his other wives). The man is also responsible to SUPPORT all of his wives financially. That means no more bleeding the beast for the FLDS and similar groups. 

Should they continue the practice of polygamy without following the regulations, they should be charged and prosecuted fully.

While some diehards will see this as gentiles running their way of life, those who aren't diehards will realize that they can live their religious beliefs without fear of presecution, and I see membership going way down. 

I like the way you think. Legalization could certainly help bring about a new way of life for members of the FLDS, yet a part of me thinks they would still be up to the same creepy shit they've been known for since Rulon, then Warren were prophet.

[devoe364]

7 minutes ago, theinvisiblegirl said:

I like the way you think. Legalization could certainly help bring about a new way of life for members of the FLDS, yet a part of me thinks they would still be up to the same creepy shit they've been known for since Rulon, then Warren were prophet.

There will be die hards. Don't get me wrong. I can see the FLDS ending a mass suicide unfortunately.

However, I think that those fringe members, particularly those that aren't among the chosen few, will see changes as the opportunity to live their lives as they chose without fear. I sincerely believe that Winston Blackmore has stopped marriying underage girls - its better for the image of polygamy.

He also doesn't treat his children who have left polygamy as apostates. 

That said, I don't believe that his 18/19 year old wives are always consenting to the marriages in a way that I would define consent.However, with gentiles not criminalizing polygamy, the fear of being caught goes away, and with it, some of the rampant fanatacism. 

[withaj]

23 hours ago, devoe364 said:

Warren Jeffs is so batshit crazy that I just want him to spend the rest of his life in jail. I don't care for what. Honestly? Legalize polygamy.

Seriously. Make. It. Legal.

Every Polygamist male can legally marry as many women as he wants, as long as they are legally of age, and consent. This consent must be witnessed by someone who is NOT related to the bride or groom (or any of his other wives). The man is also responsible to SUPPORT all of his wives financially. That means no more bleeding the beast for the FLDS and similar groups. 

100% agree. Ruth Lane, one of the former wives of Winston Blackmore, has an interesting perspective on this. She tends to be a bit more of an apologist for Winston specifically, though not necessarily polygamy as a whole, than most -- her experiences certainly indicate that she had a bit more agency growing up than most FLDS women did, which is important to keep in mind. But I found her interview with the investigators from the Attorney General's office really interesting. It's on Youtube in two parts -- the end of the second part is where she talks about what she sees as the potential benefits to striking down Canada's anti-polygamy laws. 

 

[devoe364]

35 minutes ago, withaj said:

100% agree. Ruth Lane, one of the former wives of Winston Blackmore, has an interesting perspective on this. She tends to be a bit more of an apologist for Winston specifically, though not necessarily polygamy as a whole, than most -- her experiences certainly indicate that she had a bit more agency growing up than most FLDS women did, which is important to keep in mind. But I found her interview with the investigators from the Attorney General's office really interesting. It's on Youtube in two parts -- the end of the second part is where she talks about what she sees as the potential benefits to striking down Canada's anti-polygamy laws. 

I can't watch because I am at work (shh... don't tell). That said, I really don't think Winston is a bad guy in the sense that Jeffs is. He definitely allows his wives and daughters a lot more freedom, and when wives choose to leave him, he doesn't seem to hold them in contempt.

That's why I really think that legalizing polygamy is in our best interests. It allows the authorities the time to chase the traffickers. 

[Cleopatra7]

44 minutes ago, devoe364 said:

I can't watch because I am at work (shh... don't tell). That said, I really don't think Winston is a bad guy in the sense that Jeffs is. He definitely allows his wives and daughters a lot more freedom, and when wives choose to leave him, he doesn't seem to hold them in contempt.

That's why I really think that legalizing polygamy is in our best interests. It allows the authorities the time to chase the traffickers. 

I am not so optimistic. Child marriage seems to be endemic to fundamentalist Mormon culture, certainly in the iterations like the FLDS , the Kingstons, and the LeBarons. I guess the rationale is because Joseph Smith married teens then it's okay for us to do it as well (does anyone else have a more concrete answer?). If these groups had to wait until the girls were of age, they would have time to decide whether they want this lifestyle at all, rather than being stuck with two or three kids by eighteen and feeling like there is choice but to stay. These sorts of groups are impervious to mainstream views about laws and rights, and would never abandon child marriage even if polygamy between consenting adults was legalized.

[devoe364]

19 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I am not so optimistic. Child marriage seems to be endemic to fundamentalist Mormon culture, certainly in the iterations like the FLDS , the Kingstons, and the LeBarons. I guess the rationale is because Joseph Smith married teens then it's okay for us to do it as well (does anyone else have a more concrete answer?). If these groups had to wait until the girls were of age, they would have time to decide whether they want this lifestyle at all, rather than being stuck with two or three kids by eighteen and feeling like there is choice but to stay. These sorts of groups are impervious to mainstream views about laws and rights, and would never abandon child marriage even if polygamy between consenting adults was legalized.

I don't disagree. As mentioned, I believe there will be diehards. Those diehards are most likely to end in suicide when Jeffs demands it. 

That said, Centenial Park has given up child marriage. So has the Winston Blackmore group in Bountiful. So there is evidence that it can be done.

I frimly believe that legalizing it between consenting adults will result in more people leaving the groups you mentioned. Except the Kingstons. They have a creepy level of incest going on, so for pure breeding purposes, that I don't think anything would change.

That said, I think you get the outliers if you legalize it. 

 

[withaj]

2 hours ago, devoe364 said:

I can't watch because I am at work (shh... don't tell). That said, I really don't think Winston is a bad guy in the sense that Jeffs is. He definitely allows his wives and daughters a lot more freedom, and when wives choose to leave him, he doesn't seem to hold them in contempt.

That's why I really think that legalizing polygamy is in our best interests. It allows the authorities the time to chase the traffickers. 

Agreed about Winston. I'm sure he did some shady shit when he was under Warren's thumb as an FLDS bishop, but my sense of him is that, while he might be a narcissist, he's not a fundamentally cruel or dangerous person. After the Bountiful split, it seems like he's just trying to do the best he can for his flock. For someone indoctrinated by and formerly the leader of an incredibly oppressive community, I think the transition he's made is pretty commendable. Of course, he's still involved in immigration and probably welfare fraud, but those are just more areas where legalization would help Canada keep track of them, which in my mind can only be a good thing. 

[devoe364]

2 minutes ago, withaj said:

Agreed about Winston. I'm sure he did some shady shit when he was under Warren's thumb as an FLDS bishop, but my sense of him is that, while he might be a narcissist, he's not a fundamentally cruel or dangerous person. After the Bountiful split, it seems like he's just trying to do the best he can for his flock. For someone indoctrinated by and formerly the leader of an incredibly oppressive community, I think the transition he's made is pretty commendable. Of course, he's still involved in immigration and probably welfare fraud, but those are just more areas where legalization would help Canada keep track of them, which in my mind can only be a good thing. 

Oh I am sure he did. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he should probably serve time in jail for some of it.I also agree that he is a narcissist, I mean you would have to be to produce 150 children and ADMIT OPENLY that you only know the names of the oldest ones. 

However, I also agree that if Canada legalizes polygamy, they will be better able to keep track of them. I actually believe two of Winston's wives once used Canada's gay marriage laws to be legally married to each other so an American could remain in Canada. Or at least that was the rumour. 

Winston is worth millions. He can afford to support his family. 

[withaj]

2 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I am not so optimistic. Child marriage seems to be endemic to fundamentalist Mormon culture, certainly in the iterations like the FLDS , the Kingstons, and the LeBarons. I guess the rationale is because Joseph Smith married teens then it's okay for us to do it as well (does anyone else have a more concrete answer?). If these groups had to wait until the girls were of age, they would have time to decide whether they want this lifestyle at all, rather than being stuck with two or three kids by eighteen and feeling like there is choice but to stay. These sorts of groups are impervious to mainstream views about laws and rights, and would never abandon child marriage even if polygamy between consenting adults was legalized.

From what I understand, very early marriages within the FLDS had been declining for a number of years until Warren took over, so I don't think it's necessarily true that polygamist groups will always pick child marriage as their hill to die on. The AUB opposes it -- Centennial Park opposes it -- Winston Blackmore opposes it. Certainly those are now the more mainstream groups, but that does demonstrate that they can be adaptive even in the practice of their faith. The Kingstons are so insane and shrouded in secrecy that we will probably never be able to fully ascertain what's going on there -- their biggest taboo is the incest, not early marriages. And at the moment, marriages in the FLDS are mostly a moot point since Warren is in prison and not marrying anyone. 

You're not wrong that these groups tend to be "impervious to mainstream views about laws and rights," but I think it's also worth pointing out that those groups don't have a future. They won't survive. Which is why we've seen so many of them adapt. I don't have much (if any) optimism for the FLDS as long as Warren is alive, but I believe that they, too, could make the transition away from child marriage under the right conditions. That wouldn't solve all their problems, but it would be a start.

17 minutes ago, devoe364 said:

I actually believe two of Winston's wives once used Canada's gay marriage laws to be legally married to each other so an American could remain in Canada. Or at least that was the rumour. 

Yep, that really happened. I believe the wives are Shalina Palmer and Lorraine Johnson. It's a big ol' joke to them. 

[devoe364]

6 minutes ago, withaj said:

Yep, that really happened. I believe the wives are Shalina Palmer and Lorraine Johnson. It's a big ol' joke to them. 

I thought it really happened, but it is Friday afternoon, so yeah... 

[withaj]

Also, this is the funniest thing I've seen all day. (Sort of. In that "maybe I shouldn't be laughing at this poor oppressed person" kind of way, except I'm really laughing at the caption, which makes it better.)

http://mormonhair.tumblr.com/post/99055904440/the-new-terminator-movie-looks-hella-good

[theinvisiblegirl]

@devoe364, I deeply admire how much you research the fundie Mormons and how you form opinions on ways their practices could improve. Before I came to FJ (and, really, before Quiverfull of Fundamental Mormons popped up), I always thought I was weird for how much I read about them and how I thought about them. The lifestyle is so fundamentally (no pun intended) different than what I grew up raised in (Catholic), and I've always found it fascinating. Not in a good way, because I obviously don't condone their practices on child marriages, incest, fraud, and abuse. But it's the kind of train wreck group that I just can't look away from for long periods of time. I'm glad to have a place to discuss it here amongst other people who do as much research as I sometimes do.

Mormon Hair used to be one of my favorite Tumblrs when it was active!

[theinvisiblegirl]

Anyone else follow TribunePolygamy on Twitter? It's how I get a fair amount of my FLDS news.

Lyle Jeffs wants out of prison while waiting for the food stamps fraud trial in October to begin. The other people who were indicted were given supervised release pending the trial, and he wants the same liberties. http://www.sltrib.com/news/3941370-155/lyle-jeffs-again-asks-to-be

I don't think they should let him go. I understand constitutional rights, but I think he'll flee just like Warren did.

[DaisyD]

They let him out awaiting trial.

http://kutv.com/news/local/lyle-jeffs-released-from-jail-as-he-awaits-federal-trial-on-food-stamp-conspiracy-case