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FLDS Leaders indicted


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Do any of you know how intertwined the Browns of Sister Wives are with the FLDS / AUB families?  There are many common surnames, so I assume there must be a connection.  

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10 hours ago, snickerz said:

(To be clear, I think it's also fraudulent for a man to have 6 wives and 30 kids and not supporting them, and I think it's also fraudulent for each wife to claim she's a single mom in order to get support, but I don't think that's the feds are trying to prove/charge at this time.)

 

How would that be fraud?  They are not legally married so in fact claiming they were would be fraud, right?  I have many friends with kids who are not married, they don't claim they are, how is that fraud?  Just trying to understand your point.  Its horrible behavior, and maybe the rules for SNAP should update to reflect that more people don't marry now, but I just don't see how it is fraud.  

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5 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

How would that be fraud?  They are not legally married so in fact claiming they were would be fraud, right?  I have many friends with kids who are not married, they don't claim they are, how is that fraud?  Just trying to understand your point.  Its horrible behavior, and maybe the rules for SNAP should update to reflect that more people don't marry now, but I just don't see how it is fraud.  

I don't think it is the fact that they claim that they are unmarried but that they claim there is no man on the scene so are claiming as though they are single parents when there is a Father.

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37 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

Do any of you know how intertwined the Browns of Sister Wives are with the FLDS / AUB families?  There are many common surnames, so I assume there must be a connection.  

Very intertwined. I know that politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com has it all spelled out somehow. Let me see if I can find a link. 

ETA:

http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/109968296688/husband-surfer-dudebro-kody-brown-1968

http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/127480282118/politicsrusprinciple-kody-browns-two-wives

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25 minutes ago, enigmata said:

I don't think it is the fact that they claim that they are unmarried but that they claim there is no man on the scene so are claiming as though they are single parents when there is a Father.

Does the government ask if the father is in the picture or if they are married?  My understanding was that the questions were old fashioned and just about the marriage, but I don't know.  

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They ask about number of people living in the household and the income of those people. Even if they all live together, and claim the income of everyone there, they probably still qualify in this case. I believe that they are not paid so much as "provided for" by the church for the most part.

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The whole set of questions about benefits gets really complex policy wise and in terms of paperwork.  The best I have been able to understand it is that policy-wise we would say that we want to make sure that whoever is in charge of feeding a child has access to the resources to do so.  A somewhat conflicting social policy ideal is that benefit programs such as food stamps should be reserved for helping those who do not have the resources to adequately feed themselves and their children.  All kinds of weird issues can come up.  

So SNAP benefits are available to people who meet the financial criteria both in terms of assets and income.  The application for food stamps requires applicants to disclose their household income and any assets held.  That makes sense in a typical or "normal" type situation - say an unmarried adult woman is living with her life partner and decides to have a child without getting married, it would make sense to ask about the ability of the household to buy food when determining if there is a need for food stamp assistance.  

In other situations it does not make sense.  A young woman with a child who is on her own and struggling to make ends meet may well find a living situation where she shares a household with virtual strangers or someone who is entirely uninvolved in helping to feed the child.  In that case, it makes absolutely no sense to ask about the household income.   I don't know the legal technicalities of it all, but in that type of situation the government officials will tell the applicant to only report only their own income even though the question asks about the household income.  That solution follows the spirit of the policy even if it doesn't technically follow the letter of the rules, regulations, and instructions on the paperwork.

In the FLDS situation, I am not sure exactly what happens in terms of exactly what questions are asked and exactly what the laws are, but it is clearly in violation of the spirit of the policy behind food stamps to have wives 2 through 30 reporting to in essence be single mothers entirely on their own with no one who is helping to support and raise the children - they absolutely are not.  Policy wise, those fathers should be doing what is necessary to put food on the table for their children.  If they refuse to, the first step should not be resorting to food stamps but rather to assist the mother in obtaining the child support from the dead beat dad that she is entitled to under the law.  

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34 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Does the government ask if the father is in the picture or if they are married?  My understanding was that the questions were old fashioned and just about the marriage, but I don't know.  

About 20 years ago in California I had a classmate who was a single mom, receiving SNAP benefits. She had to deal with an inspector coming to her house periodically to look for signs that her boyfriend might be living there. Ostensibly it was to prove that she had a functional kitchen, but when they started going through the bedroom closets. . .

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Food stamp fraud has been happening in FLDS land for years and it is not only food stamps but it is all government benefits. It is called "Bleed the Beast". The best one that I know a lot about is moving from UT to AZ if they have a special need child because the medical benefits in AZ are much better and closer. That is why they build the Birthing Center on the AZ side. They have a higher birth rate of special need children than a normal community part of the problem is a neurological genetic issue that both founding families had which leads to a number of congenital issues.

I am waiting for the IRS to get involved.

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2 hours ago, closetcagebaby said:

Very intertwined. I know that politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com has it all spelled out somehow. Let me see if I can find a link. 

ETA:

http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/109968296688/husband-surfer-dudebro-kody-brown-1968

http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/127480282118/politicsrusprinciple-kody-browns-two-wives

That's a veritable family KNOT.

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 Federal food stamp charges are fine by me if someone actually does something.  Looks like they are searching everything.  Good.  Maybe someone will actually stand up for these women, like Texas did.

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2 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

About 20 years ago in California I had a classmate who was a single mom, receiving SNAP benefits. She had to deal with an inspector coming to her house periodically to look for signs that her boyfriend might be living there. Ostensibly it was to prove that she had a functional kitchen, but when they started going through the bedroom closets. . .

Maybe they figured she had a YUUUGE secret stash of food in there.

And a kitchen can be pretty damned small but still functional: stayed for weeks with a friend in a 1950s style motel with kitchenette that measured maybe 6 feet across by 8 long---minus the space for a refrigerator, sink, apartment-sized range, bit of countertop, and microwave oven. Oh, and a table + 2 chairs.

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2 hours ago, Whoosh said:

 

In the FLDS situation, I am not sure exactly what happens in terms of exactly what questions are asked and exactly what the laws are, but it is clearly in violation of the spirit of the policy behind food stamps to have wives 2 through 30 reporting to in essence be single mothers entirely on their own with no one who is helping to support and raise the children - they absolutely are not.  Policy wise, those fathers should be doing what is necessary to put food on the table for their children.  If they refuse to, the first step should not be resorting to food stamps but rather to assist the mother in obtaining the child support from the dead beat dad that she is entitled to under the law.  

The article said the charges are about the "company store" thing the church runs.  You know, how they turn over all the food stamps to the church and then get their food there.  They are going after the men running the financial mechanics of the compound.  FOLLOW THE MONEY.

 

"This type of conduct represents nothing less than pure theft. The FBI and its law enforcement partners will actively pursue those entities or persons who unlawfully manipulate and control government programs for their own gain."

 

"Prosecutors also allege that the proceeds from the SNAP fraud financed ineligible purchases, such as paper products, a tractor and a truck."

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30 minutes ago, Idolatry said:

The article said the charges are about the "company store" thing the church runs.  You know, how they have to turn over all the food stamps to the church and then get their food only there.  They are going after the men running the financial mechanics of the compound, not the little details like that.  FOLLOW THE MONEY.

 

"This type of conduct represents nothing less than pure theft. The FBI and its law enforcement partners will actively pursue those entities or persons who unlawfully manipulate and control government programs for their own gain."

 

"Prosecutors also allege that the proceeds from the SNAP fraud financed ineligible purchases, such as paper products, a tractor and a truck."

I agree that these are these are the issues that people have been indicted for thus far.  This investigation is far from over.  Further, I am not positive, but I don't believe any type of indictment or charges are required to revoke SNAP benefits if there is solid proof that the SNAP recipient did engage in SNAP fraud.

 

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3 hours ago, closetcagebaby said:

Very intertwined. I know that politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com has it all spelled out somehow. Let me see if I can find a link. 

ETA:

http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/109968296688/husband-surfer-dudebro-kody-brown-1968

http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/127480282118/politicsrusprinciple-kody-browns-two-wives

Oh man. After reading 3/4th of the first one, my head is spinning. This definitely requires time and dedication to sort out. 

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Thanks for those links @SpoonfulOSugar.  Well worth reading.

For people who are convinced that Utah largely didn't care or was simply refusing to act, I have pulled the following quote from the first article.  While people don't need to believe Shurtleff and he obviously doesn't speak for every single person in authority in Utah, I personally don't agree with the sentiment that Utah officials by and large didn't care and weren't going to do anything.  Loads of people have cared for so, so long.  Based on my personal experience, it is my experience that no one knew what to do that would be effective within the bounds of the law AND have a large enough impact that the effects would not simply backfire and leave the unwilling followers/truly brainwashed victims in an even worse position.  JMO.

Quote

Former Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff said Wednesday that there have been indications of welfare fraud and tax evasion in the twin border towns of Hildale and Colorado City dating back to his time in office when the state pushed to indict Warren Jeffs and have him placed on the FBI Most Wanted list. At the time he sought support from federal investigators, he says, but was mostly ignored.

"As far as getting the FBI, U.S. Attorney's Office, the (Department of Justice), involved in these federal type crimes, which is what they've done now recently, they weren't interested," Shurtleff said. "It wasn't for want of trying on our part, we don't know."

 

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16 hours ago, closetcagebaby said:

Very intertwined. I know that politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com has it all spelled out somehow. Let me see if I can find a link. 

ETA:

http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/109968296688/husband-surfer-dudebro-kody-brown-1968

http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/127480282118/politicsrusprinciple-kody-browns-two-wives

Wow, "Christine LeBaron Allred Brown", that's a veritable "who's who" of non-FLDS, fundamentalist mormon families! 

 

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8 hours ago, Iokaste said:

Wow, "Christine LeBaron Allred Brown", that's a veritable "who's who" of non-FLDS, fundamentalist mormon families! 

 

Yep, no kidding! They get really intertwined once you get to the top families. Pretty disturbing, but makes sense, especially when you read about the high rates of certain birth defects among children born in Short Creek. 

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Willie Jessop is a really interesting character in all of this. I know many give him little quarter because of his past. I think that even if he has selfish motives, he's blowing the cult aspect of the faith wide open. He got a 30 million dollar judgment and is using it to buy the infrastructure of the town from the trust and sell it back to the county so it can be used. Even if he's one that says everything was fine before Warren, that's a lot of progress for someone that was so privileged in a brainwashed society. He's by no means perfect, but anything that shines a light into the dark corners is another step forward for these people. 

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@Kittikatz I read that this morning on my Kindle, which I have trouble posting from, so I'm glad to see you found and posted it.

Willie Jessop's bed and breakfast (in Jeffs' old house) amuses/bemuses/intrigues me.  (Just mildly.)  When he was an ugly ass in Texas, I didn't like him much . . . but the fact that he *APPEARS* to be trying to make amends appeals to me.

My fascination with the FLDS runs pretty deep.  (I'm a sucker for pastels, what can I say.)

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