Bates Family Part 10

[Alye]

33 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

Remember, Erin can claim this but she JUST got pregnant within seconds after the last baby, which was a tough pregnancy. She clearly still believes in no birth control, Quiverfull ideology.

Some people want their kids to be close in ages. Carson will be about 16 months old when Baby #2 comes. My sisters 2 kids are similar in age and she had difficult deliveries with both kids. We are anything but fundie. I don't believe that the timing of this pregnancy says anything definitive about Erin and Chad's stance on birth control.

In the last few days we have had them claim that Baby #2 was a surprise and that they as a family have no affiliation with ATI and Gothard. This with the fact that they don't seem to attend Gil's home church may suggest that they are moving away from IBLP and possibly moving in a more fundie-lite direction (note that I said may).

[AliceInFundyland]

I think it definitively says they aren't interested in using methods other than possibly nfp to control her pregnancies. And possibly that they might not be able to stop having dfficult pregnancies.

[Alye]

Really? My brother and I were both 'surprises'. My brother from a faulty condom and then 5 years later me- despite my father's vasectomy. No birth control method is foolproof. Unless we are in the room with them we can't be sure what type of birth control they may/may not be using. We can only speculate.

[nastyhobbitses]

You know, I'm all for talking about the very, VERY fucked-up beliefs that Gothardites hold, and the way they reduce women to broodmares, but by the same token, I'm rather uncomfortable with the way people are acting like Erin is some poor dumb sheep who is getting implanted with embryos until she dies. I think she should have spaced her kids out further apart, I am worried about her health, but you know what? SHE, Erin, a fully-grown married adult, maybe, just maybe, made this choice for herself and is happy with it and willing to assume the risks. I caution people against completely stripping the women we talk about of any and all agency. Is their agency limited? You bet your ass it is. Do they have absolutely none? No. They can and do make choices in their lives. I think it's actually a bit offensive and patronizing to act like every fundie woman is a stupid sheep or a glorified blow-up doll. They're treated like that enough by their own cult. Let's acknowledge that they are capable of making choices, even if those choices aren't necessarily in their best interest.

[AliceInFundyland]

@Alye I am personally at the tipping point where evidence leads me to believe they do not take the concept of birth control seriously. Everyone does seem to have very differing views on the matter....'s all good  and I am sure by the time I wake up this thread will have gone back and forth about 10 times by others. I just wanted to say that directly to you.

And also, I really don't want her to die. I keep thinking that. This entire scenario as discussed by us at least is going to have that pall hanging over it. Fun stuff.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

7 hours ago, actuallyjessica said:

The mindset in this place is almost as bad as that of a true fundie - only one way (your way) is the right away.

Not a fan of either extreme.

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

This is something I’ve noticed a lot of on FJ during my lurking. 

I also think people sometimes forget that human beings are multi-faceted and complex creatures….like the quote in Harry Potter where Sirius says that we all have both light and dark inside of us. This applies to fundies just as much as anyone else. Like anyone else, they are capable of being nice people/doing great things and ALSO saying/doing really shitty things. 

And with that said, I think some people also don't realise you can say something nice about a fundie or like something about one without endorsing what they believe in. For example, I think Alyssa has a cute sense of style and I think Chad seems like a pretty great husband. Sure, I don’t agree with their beliefs, but that doesn’t change that Chad seems to be a very loving husband and father to Erin and Carson or the fact I'd love to raid Alyssa's wardrobe if we were the same size. It’s the same way that Lawson is capable of being both a sweet guy who goes and sings at children’s hospitals AND also being a fundie frat boy with the ego the size of jupiter.

You don't have to insult EVERYTHING a fundie does to think ATI/IBLP is effed up. It's even OK to find some of their traits likeable....and it doesn't make you a leghumper either. It just means that your opinion on someone doesn't have to be "all or nothing". It's perfectly normal and OK to like some things about a person and not others. And sometimes I think people on this board forget that.

[HarleyQuinn]

@LawsonBatesEgo OT: Excellent user name lol 

 

 

[Front Hugging Fiend]

2 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

This is something I’ve noticed a lot of on FJ during my lurking. 

I also think people sometimes forget that human beings are multi-faceted and complex creatures….like the quote in Harry Potter where Sirius says that we all have both light and dark inside of us. This applies to fundies just as much as anyone else. Like anyone else, they are capable of being nice people/doing great things and ALSO saying/doing really shitty things. 

And with that said, I think some people also don't realise you can say something nice about a fundie or like something about one without endorsing what they believe in. For example, I think Alyssa has a cute sense of style and I think Chad seems like a pretty great husband. Sure, I don’t agree with their beliefs, but that doesn’t change that Chad seems to be a very loving husband and father to Erin and Carson or the fact I'd love to raid Alyssa's wardrobe if we were the same size. It’s the same way that Lawson is capable of being both a sweet guy who goes and sings at children’s hospitals AND also being a fundie frat boy with the ego the size of jupiter.

You don't have to insult EVERYTHING a fundie does to think ATI/IBLP is effed up. It's even OK to find some of their traits likeable....and it doesn't make you a leghumper either. It just means that your opinion on someone doesn't have to be "all or nothing". It's perfectly normal and OK to like some things about a person and not others. And sometimes I think people on this board forget that.

This is everything I've wanted to say for ages but didn't quite know how to articulate. Thank you. Also, A+ username. 

My biggest problem is that the Bates seem to have halfway decent traits and values among their harmful/dangerous ones. It's easier to discuss the positive Bates attributes because there seems to be a great deal more than there would be with the Duggars, for example. I think that's why people say FJ'ers tend to be more accepting of the Bates fam. Dare I say, I don't think anyone thinks the Bateses are without fault - but it does say something that we can acknolwedge that they might have at least one or two decent qualities.

And it definitely does say something that Erin has said her and Chad's family values to be differing from the wider Bates clan. Do we know the extent of it? No. But we can only hope. That distance between the Paines and Gothard is something to be celebrated. It doesn't magically wipe the other dangerous beliefs, but it's something. And I'm willing to believe that there's more good to be celebrated somewhere.

(I have to believe that. Otherwise I just won't get to sleep tonight once I log out of FJ)

[hollywood]

The alyssa photo:

I love her style. That dress is beautiful and the fact that Jane gifted it to her makes me love Jane more than I already did!

[HRM1216]

I think that is hands down the prettiest picture of Alyssa I've seen to date. That dress has stood the test of time amazingly. Go Jane Jane!

[MissBitters]

I don't think Lawson needed any prompting from Erin to stick his nose in her business. I've seen the Bates kids comment on their sibling's Instagram before, so it's not a surprise he saw it. Erin's reply, whether you believe it was sincere or not, was perfectly fine on its own, but Lawson probably felt some manly urge to defend his family. We've all seen from his Scalia comments that the boy is clueless with a giant ego. It's not a good mix for a thoughtful debate. I think Erin came out looking the best of the two.

[QuiverDance]

56 minutes ago, Front Hugging Fiend said:

My biggest problem is that the Bates seem to have halfway decent traits and values among their harmful/dangerous ones.

This is true of every single human being.  Shrug. 

As scary as these families' beliefs are, they are humans, and they are capable of so much good. I just wish more for their kids, especially their girls. But none of that actually means that those girls are not perfectly content.  

[elliha]

I think Erin's struggles with miscarriage and tough pregnancies might have had a bigger theological impact than anything else. I would not be the least bit surprised if she sought some comfort for example on the internet when things were tough and found other people who were a lot like her but still might have rejected Gothard teachings. There might have been thoughts about this before for both Erin and Chad but an environment where they were not just appreciated for their skills in baby making might have made a huge difference. I have said before that I think that despite the health risks that Erin probably will have a big family, at least 4, perhaps 5-6 kids but I do not think that she will want to have anything like her parents. This pregnancy might have been planned or a surprise but I don't think it says that she is definitely quiverfull just because she had another one close in age. Perhaps she has decided to have her children closely spaced because of how hard it was and that she hopes to get it out of her life faster that way. She might also decide after this pregnancy that just nfp is not enough and they will decide to use birth control or at least a combination of different nfp methods which does increase the safety of these methods. 

I personally hope they decide to use birth control at least for the first year after this one but Erin and Chad are adults and can decide this on their own. I don't think that Chad has pushed this pregnancy, if it was planned I 100% it was Erin's choice to go ahead. I think he is very protective of her and loves her a lot. I hope that if he wants to use birth control that he makes it clear to her and volonteers to use condoms if she wants to keep her body free from birth control.

I do feel for Erin a lot. I am also pregnant and due this summer and I might also get treatment for increased risk of blood clots but in my case I will probably only have to have injections for 7 days after delivery but I feel a bit related to her. I didn't know I had increased risk the first time so it wasn't in the math when we decided to have number 2 but I feel that number 3 is not out of the question even with this knowledge. Still, unlike Erin my problem is minor and I do not have any problem maintaining a pregnancy, my risk comes after delivery and in the latter half of the pregnancy so things are a little different.

[Kittikatz]

I find that I'm inclined to believe Erin when she says this pregnancy was a surprise. I dont know if they were using any knd of birth control, but if they were, NFP seems a likey option. And it is good for some people, but can easily fail if the user's cycle is the least bit atypical or irregular. That said, all birth control can, in the right circumstances, be less than fully reliable. I was on hormonal birth control (and using it correctly and religiously) and my bf was using a condom, and I still had an accidental pregnancy. Someone else I knew got pregnant while on an IUD. My uncle managed to impregnate his wife five years after he got sterilized - his vas defrens somehow repaired themselves. Bottom line is accidents happen. I just hope that when all is said and done, Erin's pregnancy and birth are a happy accident rather than a fatal mistake.

[FlamingFundie]

In regards to Alyssa and WatsHisFace "not having a large family," I wonder how someone in such a deep, dark hole of FundieLand finds a spouse with that parameter. If BC is off the table, and they are so heavily taught to submit, AND they believe that every child is a blessing, I wonder how they word "I don't want a big family" on their application? Does a wife just hope she finds a husband who isn't very horny? I wonder how that comes up in the courtship conversation. If they don't believe in BC (and for the sake of this argument, we will consider NFP to be birth control), where do you draw the line? At what point does is stop being "we aren't preventing, but we just dont have sex often enough to conceive" and starts being "ehhh, maybe we should wait until next week..."?

[elliha]

19 minutes ago, FlamingFundie said:

In regards to Alyssa and WatsHisFace "not having a large family," I wonder how someone in such a deep, dark hole of FundieLand finds a spouse with that parameter. If BC is off the table, and they are so heavily taught to submit, AND they believe that every child is a blessing, I wonder how they word "I don't want a big family" on their application? Does a wife just hope she finds a husband who isn't very horny? I wonder how that comes up in the courtship conversation. If they don't believe in BC (and for the sake of this argument, we will consider NFP to be birth control), where do you draw the line? At what point does is stop being "we aren't preventing, but we just dont have sex often enough to conceive" and starts being "ehhh, maybe we should wait until next week..."?

In the case of the Bates and the Duggars I guess you can bring it up after they have met all family members for the first time. Their families are huge even among fundies so even if he comes from a quiverfull family he will most likely not have more than 8-10 brothers and sisters. "So, now you have met all my family, what was it like?" "They seem great but it was a little intense at times, but I guess you get used to that?" "Well, I am not sure, they are intense to me too and I grew up with them. As a child I used to dream about a smaller family, perhaps 3-4 kids thinking it would be perfect, but then again all families are different right?" "Yeah, I am sure we can manage both a small and a big family." "Yeah, if god gives us a small family, that would be great." "Yes, that would be great..."

[FlamingFundie]

Thanks for the insight. I am very curious if wanting a smaller family is at all taboo in their circles. Perhaps I am looking at it all wrong since my only real experience is the mega families I see on TV. Im not even fundie, and it makes ME nervous just thinking how to broach that subject!

[tumblr]

18 hours ago, Dandruff said:

Judson really didn't want the training wheels removed but was basically humiliated (big boys don't use training wheels) into trying it.  He didn't like it, was clearly scared and upset, and said he wanted them back on.  Gil finally said it was his birthday so he could have the training wheels back.  He then made the still upset Judson thank Warden for "encouraging" him, and when Judson didn't do so with a smile on his face Gil rebuked him and told him to thank Warden again.  Judson put on a smile.  I found this pretty appalling.

I have no problem with this, I have pretty severe anxiety and am afraid to do almost anything now as a result. I wish more adults in my life would have forced me to take risks and do new things when I was little so I would have less new things to be afraid of as an adult. 

I haven't seen the episode yet but it sounds like it was a controlled risk in a monitored environment where the worst thing that could happen was the kid getting freaked out, if that is the case than yes, I am 100% for forcing kids to try new things and take risks. 

[Granwych]

13 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Lawson's "have a blessed day!" read like such a passive aggressive "fuck you." It's kind of entertaining to imagine him actually saying, "fuck you" on Instagram or Twitter. 

I agree @Charliemae, I hope Lawson continues to amuse us.

If I had an Instagram or Twitter account, I'd try to slip in a "Blessed Be!"  (I'm betting that the Bates clan doesn't know that's a pagan blessing--)

[grandmadugger]

I've been thinking and I'm not sure FJ is big enough for @LawsonBatesEgo.  Lord have mercy if we end up with JoshDuggarsEgo too, we'll break the internet. 

[sisterwives]

Wow I stepped away from the Bates thread for a few days and then suddenly Erin announces a pregnancy! Wow! Anyway, I assumed that they'd get pregnant again because I figured they were only using NFP which is really easy to mess up. Personally, I don't think that she got pregnant "within seconds". 16 months seems like a normal age gap, my mother had two sets of daughters with a similar gap.

[HereticHick]

4 hours ago, HRM1216 said:

I think that is hands down the prettiest picture of Alyssa I've seen to date. That dress has stood the test of time amazingly. Go Jane Jane!

Alyssa is rockin' that 50 year old dress!  It would be great to wear that to a wedding.

 

And here is a closeup from John's account: 

 

[refugee]

21 hours ago, Dandruff said:

Judson really didn't want the training wheels removed but was basically humiliated (big boys don't use training wheels) into trying it.  He didn't like it, was clearly scared and upset, and said he wanted them back on.  Gil finally said it was his birthday so he could have the training wheels back.  He then made the still upset Judson thank Warden for "encouraging" him, and when Judson didn't do so with a smile on his face Gil rebuked him and told him to thank Warden again.  Judson put on a smile.  I found this pretty appalling.

Sounds like a bullying relationship to me...

(written from a position of ignorance -- I have never watched the show, just follow this thread because... well, a number of reasons -- but it sounds all too reminiscent of the bullying relationships in the family I grew up in)

20 hours ago, purple_summer said:

I did too. The whole "you don't look thankful" thing made me cringe. 

Regarding Cherin, I'm sure the birthday cake at the wedding was Gil/Kelly's idea. I mean it was the first Bates wedding and the marriage was between 2 major ATI families...it probably would have been weird (to them) to not include Gothard in some form. I'm sure the requirement for Crown students to attend the campus church and not their home church exposed Erin to new ideas, even if they are still fundie. Maybe learning that you could still lead a "godly" lifestyle without being eyeballs deep in IBLP crap was enough of an incentive for them to start pulling away. Cherin do still attend the Crown church right? 

Yeah, let's teach the kid to stuff his emotions, disregard them, learn to put on a fake happy-grateful face no matter what.

It reminds me of a clinical counseling class, where we read about a client who was talking about being "so angry" and actually "furious" but had this polite smile on her face that was in startling contrast to her words. When the therapist made her aware of her facial expression, she was shocked and distressed (verbally expressed dismay) but couldn't stop smiling.

[refugee]

11 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Erin & Chad, and Lawson can claim they no longer support the IBLP ministry, however they still are following those strict patriarchal, Quiverfull, and below knee skirts only guidelines. They can talk the talk, but can they walk the walk? It's possible they are just publicly choosing to state they do not support the IBLP ministry because of the bad press about the lawsuit scandal against the organization right now. Remember, these people are on a reality TV show and witnessed the Duggars rise and fall from scandals and I bet they go to bed at night praying to the Lord that they keep their show and are free from scandals. I am more likely to believe that Alyssa does not support IBLP because Alyssa wears pants, hasn't had a baby in awhile, and has made statements saying she did not want a super-huge family. Remember, Erin can claim this but she JUST got pregnant within seconds after the last baby, which was a tough pregnancy. She clearly still believes in no birth control, Quiverfull ideology.  To me, personally, IBLP is no different than conservative Christians who "claim" they are not a part of IBLP yet are Quiverfull, have baby after baby, KJV only, wear skirts, and follow patriarchy.

Wait, I'm confused. It sounded like Erin implied they were no longer enamored with Bill G or IBLP (at least, that's what I thought she meant by "the ministry").

And then Lawson had to jump in and defend IBLP and ATI. It sounded to me like he thought Erin was letting their side down, so someone had to go in there and prop it up again. After all, if she's not for them, she's against them, the way they think.

Her statement reads to me as very cautious, kind of like things you might hear at first from people easing their way out of our former church, trying to distance themselves quietly without getting their kids shunned (and losing their entire social circle), before they have the chance to build outside relationships.

[Dandruff]

Just now, refugee said:

Sounds like a bullying relationship to me...

(written from a position of ignorance -- I have never watched the show, just follow this thread because... well, a number of reasons -- but it sounds all too reminiscent of the bullying relationships in the family I grew up in)

I thought so too.  Judson had just received the bicycle for his birthday and wanted to enjoy it with the training wheels on. Instead, he was pressured by his father and brother to try something he was afraid to do, with a film crew getting it for TV watchers everywhere.  After he tried the bike without training wheels, became visibly upset, and repeatedly said he wanted the training wheels back on his father finally relented ("it's your birthday").  Judson was then made to thank, with a smile, the brother who had told him that big boys don't use training wheels.  There may have been some good intentions, especially on the part of Warden, but I found it all overshadowed by the way that little boy was treated.  Five years old.  Can't imagine WTF goes on when the cameras aren't there.