Duggars by the Dozen - General Discussion Part 17

[roddma]

Question:why do they refer to Thanksgiving as "Fall Feast'? I know they call Halloween something else, but it seems Thanksgiving wouldn' tbe seen as 'evil'. It's still the same no matter how they try to spin it.

[Inky]

11 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Unless you're a "young lady," which means that 7 is 21, and old enough to start taking care of a "buddy."

But whether 7 or 21, not old enough to go to the store without an accountability partner, or have a conversation with a male friend in private. Never old enough for that.

[MakeItSo]

1 hour ago, roddma said:

Question:why do they refer to Thanksgiving as "Fall Feast'? I know they call Halloween something else, but it seems Thanksgiving wouldn' tbe seen as 'evil'. It's still the same no matter how they try to spin it.

asked myself the same thing so I googled it and this is what I found (dug it out of my browser history hehe from a few days ago) http://ask.metafilter.com/81160/Fall-Feast-Day and that would be the explanation I would have assumed BUT then I thought how surprised I would be at the Duggars being culturally sensitive. *cut to JBoob pretend-talking Spanish and laughing his butt off about it*

[Bethella]

2 hours ago, roddma said:

Question:why do they refer to Thanksgiving as "Fall Feast'? I know they call Halloween something else, but it seems Thanksgiving wouldn' tbe seen as 'evil'. It's still the same no matter how they try to spin it.

It's a "Fall Feast" because they already did a "Thanksgiving" episode several years ago, if they called it the same thing people might realize they're reusing episode ideas.

[Toothfairy]

On Saturday, March 19, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Bad Wolf said:

I don't have a problem with Jinger using Pinterest for ideas for her photography. Where else is she going to learn? She can't take a college class.

Gothard photography 

[St.Clara]

On 20.3.2016 at 2:34 AM, calimojo said:

[snip] Again, no kid is an angel, but these people try to sell themselves as having the whole parenting thing figured out and what we all now know, is that despite because of extreme religious indoctrination re: purity and repressing sexual thoughts,  They raised a child molester [snip]

 

 

Fixed that for you...

[quiverofdoubt]

This is kind of random, and so wasn't sure where to put it. But it gives some insight and perspective as to what happens in super religious circles where purity and waiting for marriage become more than just a goal, and turn into your identity.  the gothard kids probably have it 100x worse than this women though.  

http://www.xojane.com/sex/true-love-waits-pledge

i love her point about your sexuality/body belonging to you and not the church.

[biblelandjunkie]

5 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

This is kind of random, and so wasn't sure where to put it. But it gives some insight and perspective as to what happens in super religious circles where purity and waiting for marriage become more than just a goal, and turn into your identity.  the gothard kids probably have it 100x worse than this women though.  

http://www.xojane.com/sex/true-love-waits-pledge

i love her point about your sexuality/body belonging to you and not the church.

great article....she is not alone in her thoughts I am sure ...

[Mela99]

15 hours ago, Bethella said:

It's a "Fall Feast" because they already did a "Thanksgiving" episode several years ago, if they called it the same thing people might realize they're reusing episode ideas.

I'm more inclined to believe that than them thinking Thanksgiving is too secular. 

Though I'm sure they teach the kids Thanksgiving is being thankful for Jesus and nothing else.

[chris]

5 hours ago, Mela99 said:

I'm more inclined to believe that than them thinking Thanksgiving is too secular. 

Though I'm sure they teach the kids Thanksgiving is being thankful for Jesus and nothing else.

Which is weird since while Thanksgiving is set in federal law, each year the President proclaims the date as a "National Day of Thanksgiving"

[RoseWilder]

On 3/20/2016 at 9:34 PM, calimojo said:

as a mother of a formerly wild child,  I am not criticizing the kids,  but I will never understand how their followers are always going on and on about how well behaved the duggar kids are.  

This has baffled me for years. I always want to say to those people, "Are we watching the same show." It's been awhile since I watched the show, but when I did watch they were hurling themselves down the stairs, walking across counters, licking counters etc. I babysat from the age of 12-18 and then worked as a nanny for 10 years after that, and not every child I took care of was well behaved, but I've never seen children walking across counters and climbing all over the stairs like that. 

In this particular case I see it as a plus because I think it means that blanket training and beating them with rods is no longer being used (they were probably too worried that the camera crew would find out), but still they are not well behaved like their fans claim. 

[CreationMuseumSeasonPass]

3 hours ago, RoseWilder said:

This has baffled me for years. I always want to say to those people, "Are we watching the same show." It's been awhile since I watched the show, but when I did watch they were hurling themselves down the stairs, walking across counters, licking counters etc. I babysat from the age of 12-18 and then worked as a nanny for 10 years after that, and not every child I took care of was well behaved, but I've never seen children walking across counters and climbing all over the stairs like that. 

In this particular case I see it as a plus because I think it means that blanket training and beating them with rods is no longer being used (they were probably too worried that the camera crew would find out), but still they are not well behaved like their fans claim. 

Apparently, when you're white, Christian and spew "family values," apparently all is forgiven.

[St.Clara]

On 21.3.2016 at 3:14 PM, quiverofdoubt said:

This is kind of random, and so wasn't sure where to put it. But it gives some insight and perspective as to what happens in super religious circles where purity and waiting for marriage become more than just a goal, and turn into your identity.  the gothard kids probably have it 100x worse than this women though.  

http://www.xojane.com/sex/true-love-waits-pledge

i love her point about your sexuality/body belonging to you and not the church.

This is truly heartbreaking - even more so if you keep in mind that the author was still somewhat lucky in that her husband respected her choices. I do not want to even start imagining the misery of the women whose husbands will shame or bully them into having sex with them, even after they are informed of the truth.

You do not have to be a rocket scientist in order to figure out that there have to be so many of them somewhere out there.

While I am usually not in the habit of quoting the bible in my everyday life, I cannot help myself - these so-called Christians keep reminding me constantly of bible verses strongly disapproving of their ways. It is said in the 5th book of Mose, chapter 27: "Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way." A ten-year old girl is as vulnerable to being misled by the people she trusts as a blind person is.

Damn it, READ YOUR BIBLE, you morons!

[St.Clara]

Quote

When we got home, I couldn't look anyone in the eye. Everyone knew my virginity was gone. My parents, my church, my friends, my co-workers. They all knew I was soiled and tarnished. I wasn't special anymore. My virginity had become such an essential part of my personality that I didn't know who I was without it. 

That quote from the above-mentioned article made me think. The author says that she and her husband used bc in their wedding night which means they were not qf. I suppose that in the qf world, girls/women will also painfully feel the loss of that essential part of their identity that the author describes - being admired and cheered on as "untarnished" godly virgins. They, meanwhile, are offered an instant solution to their problem: they will try to make up for their loss by becoming mothers as fast as possible.

Maybe that is the central reason for why they feel such an urgency when they try to get pregnant right after the wedding. I remember that it has been wondered in this forum more than once why the newly-wed wives never seem grateful if they are granted some time to enjoy life as a couple first (Anna, Jessa), but tend to feel rather devastated if they do not fall pregnant during their honeymoon already. Maybe it is because, in their world, they are nothing if they are neither a virgin nor a mother, a "soiled and tarnished" but barren and useless vessel.

What a life...

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, St.Clara said:

That quote from the above-mentioned article made me think. The author says that she and her husband used bc in their wedding night which means they were not qf. I suppose that in the qf world, girls/women will also painfully feel the loss of that essential part of their identity that the author describes - being admired and cheered on as "untarnished" godly virgins. They, meanwhile, are offered an instant solution to their problem: they will try to make up for their loss by becoming mothers as fast as possible.

Maybe that is the central reason for why they feel such an urgency when they try to get pregnant right after the wedding. I remember that it has been wondered in this forum more than once why the newly-wed wives never seem grateful if they are granted some time to enjoy life as a couple first (Anna, Jessa), but tend to feel rather devastated if they do not fall pregnant during their honeymoon already. Maybe it is because, in their world, they are nothing if they are neither a virgin nor a mother, a "soiled and tarnished" but barren and useless vessel.

What a life...

You may be right.  And definitely Fubar.  Sad that these women see their worth only in terms of how their patriarchal.cult categorizes their bodies.

[quiverofdoubt]

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/things-wish-known-gaslighting/

This article has duggar written all over it. I can see michelle and jboob constantly rewriting their children's experiences, until they no longer trust how or what they feel. "no honey, you're not sad that you had to give up your special box, you're happy because you blessed your sister"  "no, i didn't punish you, i just led you in the way of the lord"  "I didn't have unreasonable expectations of you as a child, you were just a very difficult child." "no, don't argue with your brother, you need to work on  your pride and submit".  

Quote

10. Gaslighting May Be Amplified in Families, Poly Relationships, and Other Groups

It’s hard to stand firm when one person is trying to replace your experience, but when they have a chorus of supporters, it is nearly impossible. There is a reason why cult abuse can lead to a complete breakdown of someone’s personality.

Group manipulation and abuse is devastatingly effective.

I can’t easily explain the level of shame and fear that a group you’re deeply invested in can produce with a coordinated attack. We need to be very careful of this in poly groups so we do not exploit this power or unwittingly enable abuse.

I know there is a lot of shame tied up in ending a relationship, and no one wants to be the bad guy. But we all owe it to each other to not participate in relationships where anyone’s self esteem is being degraded.

 

[OperaRocks]

Not sure where to put this, but just now, as I Googled Duggar news, I found a buttload of articles from the usual suspects citing that Boob and his Helpmeet are divorcing. Perhaps it's a slow news day (aside from crazy political candidates and ISEL's latest)? Oy.

[Jucifer]

1 hour ago, quiverofdoubt said:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/things-wish-known-gaslighting/

This article has duggar written all over it. I can see michelle and jboob constantly rewriting their children's experiences, until they no longer trust how or what they feel.

 

This is exactly how it was for me growing up in a cult. Thanks for the link, quiverofdoubt.

1 hour ago, quiverofdoubt said:

"I didn't have unreasonable expectations of you as a child, you were just a very difficult child." 

Ugh, I can still remember conversations I had with my dad when I would try (very carefully) to get him to listen to reason.  It never worked.  

Many times I remember my siblings out of my dad's line of sight giving me signs that I had crossed a line and to shut TF up.  I didn't until I was a teenager and I had lost the assumption that maybe I was just too young to know what I was saying.   I was a 'very difficult child'.

 In my teenage years I found it was just easier to lie about my opinions, feelings, ect.  It can become a lifestyle if you're not careful, which is why I still have a teeny bit of sympathy for Josh...

 

 

 

[sophie10130]

6 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/things-wish-known-gaslighting/

This article has duggar written all over it. I can see michelle and jboob constantly rewriting their children's experiences, until they no longer trust how or what they feel. "no honey, you're not sad that you had to give up your special box, you're happy because you blessed your sister"  "no, i didn't punish you, i just led you in the way of the lord"  "I didn't have unreasonable expectations of you as a child, you were just a very difficult child." "no, don't argue with your brother, you need to work on  your pride and submit".  

 

And imagine the difficulties with dealing with emotions about this. Like, I know I punished you, but you can't be upset about it because I was leading you to the Lord, and you wouldn't be upset about coming closer to the Lord, would you???

 

Also, along with the whole having sex and not getting immediately pregnant, just another note. They are taught their whole lives that having sex is dirty and sinful UNLESS it's done after marriage and to make babies (and to please the dude). So if they aren't making babies (at no fault to them and not for lack of trying) it must be hard to think of it as something that isn't still dirty and sinful.

 

The way they teach sexuality is all kinds of fucked up, and it's not even just a problem for the super fundamentalist circles. I waited to have sex until marriage. My husband didn't. A married couple I knew just had a baby and the wife was saying how she wasn't looking forward to having a sex talk with him in 13 years. We were just talking about it, and I just off-handedly said "I wonder what kind of talk I will give" as sort of thinking out loud. And the husband, dead serious said "Well just tell them that you guys waited until marriage to have sex. It's mostly true. That's what we plan on telling our kids." And the thing is, neither of them were virgins before they got married. They also didn't lose their virginities to each other. And I was just sort of taken aback. Um, no, I will not lie to my kids about that. That's how we get people with fucked up relationships with sex. My husband and I have very different experiences on opposite ends of the spectrum that I think would be valuable to learn from.

[quiverofdoubt]

7 hours ago, sophie10130 said:

And imagine the difficulties with dealing with emotions about this. Like, I know I punished you, but you can't be upset about it because I was leading you to the Lord, and you wouldn't be upset about coming closer to the Lord, would you???

 

Also, along with the whole having sex and not getting immediately pregnant, just another note. They are taught their whole lives that having sex is dirty and sinful UNLESS it's done after marriage and to make babies (and to please the dude). So if they aren't making babies (at no fault to them and not for lack of trying) it must be hard to think of it as something that isn't still dirty and sinful.

 

The way they teach sexuality is all kinds of fucked up, and it's not even just a problem for the super fundamentalist circles. I waited to have sex until marriage. My husband didn't. A married couple I knew just had a baby and the wife was saying how she wasn't looking forward to having a sex talk with him in 13 years. We were just talking about it, and I just off-handedly said "I wonder what kind of talk I will give" as sort of thinking out loud. And the husband, dead serious said "Well just tell them that you guys waited until marriage to have sex. It's mostly true. That's what we plan on telling our kids." And the thing is, neither of them were virgins before they got married. They also didn't lose their virginities to each other. And I was just sort of taken aback. Um, no, I will not lie to my kids about that. That's how we get people with fucked up relationships with sex. My husband and I have very different experiences on opposite ends of the spectrum that I think would be valuable to learn from.

This so so much.  The amount of abuse is devastating. brainwashing, emotional abuse, religious abuse, gaslighting, educational neglect, neglect in general, body shaming, sex shaming. It goes on and on. Oh, and the "immediate obedience" stuff.  All of it together, from the day the child is born basically, is enough to screw someone up so bad you can't ever really untangle it. Even if one of the kids realizes something is off, and starts to see a professional for help, they'll be too afraid of going to hell to make any big moves.  I have enough knowledge of what even ONE of these abuses does to a growing brain, nevertheless all of them, to know those kids are in a world of hurt.  That's why I won't judge an adult duggar for not leaving the cult, or even for repeating the cycle. Same reasons I don't blame someone raised in extreme poverty for not "pulling themselves" out of it.  I have the utmost respect for those that have, but consider them exceptional and the standard to judge by. Same with fundies born into it, who managed an escape.

 

For sex ed for us: i don't consider it a one time talk. For me it's a life long process. It starts with using anatomically correct terms with my little girl from day one. Over time as she asks questions or topics come up we'll discuss them, at an age appropriate level. With my current pregnancy even at three she's getting some basic info.  So for me it's a lifelong process, with open and honest discussions as she grows up.  The hard part is getting over my discomfort. She could care less.

I am also teaching myself to give her bodily autonomy: it's your body kid, you make the choices. You take care of it (i help with anything she asks for help with of course, she's still little). . She also has to deal with those consequences.  She gets to choose when to use the bathroom, whom she's comfortable showing physical affection towards (no "hug grandma!" in my house. She can if she wants. doesn't have to by any means).  Hopefully by sending the message that her body is her own, and not only is she in charge of it, but no one else can do anything to it she doesn't permit, she is set up well for healthy relationships. And can say something if someone tries to force anything she doesn't like.

[closetcagebaby]

18 hours ago, OperaRocks said:

Not sure where to put this, but just now, as I Googled Duggar news, I found a buttload of articles from the usual suspects citing that Boob and his Helpmeet are divorcing. Perhaps it's a slow news day (aside from crazy political candidates and ISEL's latest)? Oy.

I saw this too! Came over here to the Land of the Duggar Threads to check out what the consensus was.

[EmCatlyn]

6 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

I saw this too! Came over here to the Land of the Duggar Threads to check out what the consensus was.

The Michelle and JB divorce rumors have been under discussion in the "Counting On Season 1, Part 2" thread and the consensus seems to be that it is just tabloid fantasy.

None of us doubt that there is tension in that house, and JB and M may be fighting, but IMHO they are unlikely to divorce unless Michelle runs off with the vacuum cleaner salesman.  And even then, I bet that JB is more likely to murder her (oops, she fell down the stairs) than ruin the brand by divorcing.

[ShepherdontheRock]

Idk where you found all the divorce rumors. I just found something about how a few companies are annoyed that their ads were aired during Duggar time.

Whoops.

[Drala]

The way the tabloids tell it, marital conflict = divorce.  I think there probably is conflict between Boob and Shelly over Josh and how to proceed as united front.  They've got a lot to sort out.  With their cover-up of Josh's molestation behavior as a teen, it's Boob & Shelly who caused 19KAC to get yanked. They've got to know on some level that they didn't handle things well to begin with or they wouldn't be facing the problems they are today.  So yeah, I imagine they are arguing over what went wrong and how to move forward.  Too bad they aren't getting help sorting things out.  Or maybe they are, and they're actually communicating honest differences of opinion like most married couples do.

[anne.stults]

1 hour ago, Drala said:

The way the tabloids tell it, marital conflict = divorce.  I think there probably is conflict between Boob and Shelly over Josh and how to proceed as united front.  They've got a lot to sort out.  With their cover-up of Josh's molestation behavior as a teen, it's Boob & Shelly who caused 19KAC to get yanked. They've got to know on some level that they didn't handle things well to begin with or they wouldn't be facing the problems they are today.  So yeah, I imagine they are arguing over what went wrong and how to move forward.  Too bad they aren't getting help sorting things out.  Or maybe they are, and they're actually communicating honest differences of opinion like most married couples do.

I can see Boob blaming Mullet for everything.  Boob has shamed his wife before over her "past".   Remember, Boob is a complete narcissist who will never take any blame for anything.