Jill, Derick and Israel- Lucky Number 13

[THERetroGamerNY]

Just now, quiverofdoubt said:

The police interviews where one of the children said they all get spanked with a rod, combined with the duggar's putting pearl stuff in their books/website, and michelle's admission of blanket training, is enough for me.  I don't see jb and michelle taking bits and pieces of a philosophy to use- they tend to go all in on belief systems, following instructions to the letter. They wouldn't read pearl's instructions for blanket training then just do bits of it and not all of it. They say themselves the child gets a "correction" for leaving the blanket. Correction is ati/pearl code for corporal punishment.

Oh, no: Don't get me wrong: I wouldn't put it past these people at all.

But, just to clarify why I doubt: It was a single police report, wasn't it? And it merely mentioned a rod of some sort.

Logically, that still doesn't even translate into "They beat the baby with the rod." I could just as easily, to me, mean spankings for the middle kids.

Michelle *did* describe something that is UNCOMFORTABLY close to blanket training ... but she never actually DID describe such.

(Truthfully, I do very much suspect Michelle of doing such, since she is SO utterly an awful mother, but the logical side of me also acknowledges that there is no actual damning evidence...)

And also, I sift through Word Press a lot: Some mother the other day did an article describing blanket training, and no corporal punishment was mentioned. There were also other mothers on some forum that happily endorsed the method, but were rather pissed when somebody else brought corporal punishment up.

Here's an example of a mother doing something with blankets, and she makes it fairly clear that no corporal punishment is involved: lifewiththelittlers.blogspot.com/2012/03/blanket-training-101.html

Contrast this with inashoe.com/2006/09/blanket-training/ who basically does admit to playing whack-a-baby.

The idea that corporal punishment via blanket training is some universal fundie concept ... I don't buy into that.

It exists, yes. Like shit on a shoe, the Pearl's method does get used. But it does seem to me he accusation of it gets applied a touch too twitchy ... accusations of abuse need to be treated seriously.

[quiverofdoubt]

2 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

Oh, no: Don't get me wrong: I wouldn't put it past these people at all.

But, just to clarify why I doubt: It was a single police report, wasn't it? And it merely mentioned a rod of some sort.

Logically, that still doesn't even translate into "They beat the baby with the rod." I could just as easily, to me, mean spankings for the middle kids.

Michelle *did* describe something that is UNCOMFORTABLY close to blanket training ... but she never actually DID describe such.

(Truthfully, I do very much suspect Michelle of doing such, since she is SO utterly an awful mother, but the logical side of me also acknowledges that there is no actual damning evidence...)

And also, I sift through Word Press a lot: Some mother the other day did an article describing blanket training, and no corporal punishment was mentioned. There were also other mothers on some forum that happily endorsed the method, but were rather pissed when somebody else brought corporal punishment up.

Here's an example of a mother doing something with blankets, and she makes it fairly clear that no corporal punishment is involved: lifewiththelittlers.blogspot.com/2012/03/blanket-training-101.html

Contrast this with inashoe.com/2006/09/blanket-training/ who basically does admit to playing whack-a-baby.

The idea that corporal punishment via blanket training is some universal fundie concept ... I don't buy into that.

It exists, yes. Like shit on a shoe, the Pearl's method does get used. But it does seem to me he accusation of it gets applied a touch too twitchy ... accusations of abuse need to be treated seriously.

Michelle does mention blanket training 20 and counting. I can't remember if she called it that. But she describes putting a blanket on the floor, then putting baby on it. She describes putting the baby back on the blanket if they wander off, and only allowing one toy. If that toy leaves the blanket they can't go get it. She may have described giving them a correction, but i can't remember and not willing to re-listen to the book to find out.  She talks about how great it is to use when nursing other babies or teaching older kids school. So yes, we do know she uses blanket training. And that they use a rod to spank at least the older children. And the interviewed child said that all the kids get spanked with it. Plumbing rod is recommended in pearls books because it doesn't look like a normal punishment instrument, easily attainable, and fits in a purse.  Does she smack the babies on the legs? I can't possibly say. Has she spanked, at least in the past, with something further than a hand? yes. Has she evaded that question to the point of a lie? yes.  Does she blanket train? yes, by self admission.

[THERetroGamerNY]

1 minute ago, quiverofdoubt said:

Michelle does mention blanket training 20 and counting. I can't remember if she called it that. But she describes putting a blanket on the floor, then putting baby on it. She describes putting the baby back on the blanket if they wander off, and only allowing one toy. If that toy leaves the blanket they can't go get it. She may have described giving them a correction, but i can't remember and not willing to re-listen to the book to find out.  She talks about how great it is to use when nursing other babies or teaching older kids school. So yes, we do know she uses blanket training. And that they use a rod to spank at least the older children. And the interviewed child said that all the kids get spanked with it. Plumbing rod is recommended in pearls books because it doesn't look like a normal punishment instrument, easily attainable, and fits in a purse.  Does she smack the babies on the legs? I can't possibly say. Has she spanked, at least in the past, with something further than a hand? yes. Has she evaded that question to the point of a lie? yes.  Does she blanket train? yes, by self admission.

I hear you ... I honestly detest her.

Wouldn't surprise me if she put a kid in a freezer in order to "cool them off" and calm them down.

But, even with the Dairy Queen's abuse... I dunno that I buy into it being a universally-adopted method.

I dunno... maybe this is just a me thing? A male thing?

[choralcrusader8613]

For anyone who doesn't want to spend a ton of time looking for the quote in question from the child in the police report, it's on page 29 of the report.

[felinefundie]

Re: Izzy's constant unexplained bruises. He is extremely fair, so bruises appear a lot more pronounced and a lot more often then they would if he had a darker skin tone. At least they do in my experience as someone who basically glows in the dark. If Izzy had been intentionally struck with something, I am fairly certain the resulting bruise would be A LOT more pronounced and much, much darker. Of course, this is just a diagnoses off of internet pictures, so I could be completely off. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

1 minute ago, felinefundie said:

Re: Izzy's constant unexplained bruises. He is extremely fair, so bruises appear a lot more pronounced and a lot more often then they would if he had a darker skin tone. At least they do in my experience as someone who basically glows in the dark. If Izzy had been intentionally struck with something, I am fairly certain the resulting bruise would be A LOT more pronounced and much, much darker. Of course, this is just a diagnoses off of internet pictures, so I could be completely off. 

Yeah, see: This is sorta what I'm talking about.

Abuse, to me, is a very serious allegation. A few photos from the internet with a vague interpretation possible ... not gonna cut it for me.

I was abused by my own mother ... but, honestly? Pretty much all the bruising I ever got was because of just being a kid. Fell off a horse ... fell down the stairs ... ran and slipped.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

7 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

I hear you ... I honestly detest her.

Wouldn't surprise me if she put a kid in a freezer in order to "cool them off" and calm them down.

But, even with the Dairy Queen's abuse... I dunno that I buy into it being a universally-adopted method.

I dunno... maybe this is just a me thing? A male thing?

Blanket training (with or without "corrections"), plumbing line, etc., are not universal fundie methods. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

1 minute ago, JemimaPuddle-Duck said:

Blanket training (with or without "corrections"), plumbing line, etc., are not universal fundie methods. 

Sometimes ... maybe I'm perceiving this incorrectly ... but sometimes I get the feeling that in circles such as this, it is assumed that they do such pretty much by default.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

7 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

Sometimes ... maybe I'm perceiving this incorrectly ... but sometimes I get the feeling that in circles such as this, it is assumed that they do such pretty much by default.

Do you mean assumed by others within their circles or assumed by outsiders?

[THERetroGamerNY]

Sometimes ... maybe I'm perceiving this incorrectly ... but sometimes I get the feeling that in circles such as this, it is assumed that they do such pretty much by default.

Do you mean assumed by others within their circles or assumed by outsiders?

Outsiders, such as here.

And unsurprisingly, as they do tend to be awful people...

[grandmadugger]

1 hour ago, felinefundie said:

Re: Izzy's constant unexplained bruises. He is extremely fair, so bruises appear a lot more pronounced and a lot more often then they would if he had a darker skin tone. At least they do in my experience as someone who basically glows in the dark. If Izzy had been intentionally struck with something, I am fairly certain the resulting bruise would be A LOT more pronounced and much, much darker. Of course, this is just a diagnoses off of internet pictures, so I could be completely off. 

As a fellow glow in the dark person I agree.  Plus I'm a clutz, there are days that I find bruises and go "Where the hell did that come from?"

[quiverofdoubt]

I definitely don't assume. I didn't think the bates blanket trained for example (still not sure if they do or have used it), or any other fundies. I actually had no idea what blanket training was till michelle introduced it in her book. First time i had heard of it. I assumed actually that jb and michelle found pearl's crappy scary should be illegal book on their own, and that they used it in addendum to ati/gothard resources.   I guess what I'm trying to say is that my thinking isn't  the duggars are fundies therefore blanket train, but instead  working from what michelle herself wrote about in her book.  I highly doubt izzie's bruises are from any real abuse (unless he fell off the blanket I kid i kid). he's fair. he's getting more active and owies are going to happen.  And I agree with an earlier poster who said that Jill thinks it's pretty normal for kids to run wild and mostly  unsupervised.  

[THERetroGamerNY]

It's probably just my own perceptions then... I guess the whole blanket training thing gets mentioned a lot is all.

Probably doesn't help that I read stuff like Homeschoolers Anon. lol

[quiverofdoubt]

Adding: i'm not assuming Jill is blanket training because she is a fundie. I'm just trying to be logical here. Jill is very much her parents child, and not the type to reinvent the wheel.  Momma duggar suggests something and Jill is very likely to follow. Also- unless we work hard otherwise, we tend to raise our children how we were raised. Down to repeating things our parents said and did that we swore we wouldn't do.  It's how our brains our formed. When you are a child you imprint what you're parents do, and that becomes our guide book for raising kids. It's just how we evolved. Parenting books were very unpopular in caveman days. So if you survived childhood whatever your parents did worked, so you repeat it.  It's why breaking the cycles of abuse is so damn hard.

I just don't see Jill scouring modern, secular, evidence based parenting books and reevaluating her childhood in order to make decisions regarding izzie.  I see her doing what she was raised with. She also spent her entire childhood learning to obey her parents, without hesitation or question. She's still very young and I just can't see her ignoring michelle's advice. I'm not saying she's a carbon copy, but i see a lot more evidence for her repeating her childhood with her children, than for her to start from scratch.  To parent in a wildly different way would be akin to rebellion.

[nastyhobbitses]

11 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

Adding: i'm not assuming Jill is blanket training because she is a fundie. I'm just trying to be logical here. Jill is very much her parents child, and not the type to reinvent the wheel.  Momma duggar suggests something and Jill is very likely to follow. Also- unless we work hard otherwise, we tend to raise our children how we were raised. Down to repeating things our parents said and did that we swore we wouldn't do.  It's how our brains our formed. When you are a child you imprint what you're parents do, and that becomes our guide book for raising kids. It's just how we evolved. Parenting books were very unpopular in caveman days. So if you survived childhood whatever your parents did worked, so you repeat it.  It's why breaking the cycles of abuse is so damn hard.

I just don't see Jill scouring modern, secular, evidence based parenting books and reevaluating her childhood in order to make decisions regarding izzie.  I see her doing what she was raised with. She also spent her entire childhood learning to obey her parents, without hesitation or question. She's still very young and I just can't see her ignoring michelle's advice. I'm not saying she's a carbon copy, but i see a lot more evidence for her repeating her childhood with her children, than for her to start from scratch.  To parent in a wildly different way would be akin to rebellion.

I can see Jill having further parenting issues if she has more boys. I really think she seemed a bit disappointed that she was having a boy, since in her mind, boy = can't be sistermom (and more darkly, boy = sister-molester). If she wants to do exactly what Me-chelle did, she'd need to be extraordinarily lucky and have enough girls in quick succession to delegate labor/actual childrearing to. If she ends up having lots of boys in quick succession, she might start to reevaluate the parenting system she's defaulting to.

[quiverofdoubt]

2 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I can see Jill having further parenting issues if she has more boys. I really think she seemed a bit disappointed that she was having a boy, since in her mind, boy = can't be sistermom (and more darkly, boy = sister-molester). If she wants to do exactly what Me-chelle did, she'd need to be extraordinarily lucky and have enough girls in quick succession to delegate labor/actual childrearing to. If she ends up having lots of boys in quick succession, she might start to reevaluate the parenting system she's defaulting to.

Yes, me-chelle has said many times "how blessed i was to have so many girls in a row".  her first was a boy though, and then boy/girl twins. I think jill will rely a lot on the tth, her parents and her other sisters to help with her group of kids. I'm sure she calls michelle often with questions and 'what would you do" situations.  Heck, as the years pass if she has a lot of children (biology plays a huge role here, so who knows what will happen) she may use the lost girls as her sister moms.  I just feel like these people never reevaluate, just pray harder and crack down more. 

[ksgranola1]

2 hours ago, felinefundie said:

Re: Izzy's constant unexplained bruises. He is extremely fair, so bruises appear a lot more pronounced and a lot more often then they would if he had a darker skin tone. At least they do in my experience as someone who basically glows in the dark. If Izzy had been intentionally struck with something, I am fairly certain the resulting bruise would be A LOT more pronounced and much, much darker. Of course, this is just a diagnoses off of internet pictures, so I could be completely off. 

That bruise on his head looks to be a corner of the table type to me. My kids would wobble all the way across the

liroom & then fall face down on the brick fireplace.

I don't get how blanket training could possibly work. If I put my 1-1 1/2 yo on a blanket & told them they couldn't go get something out of reach, they would have heard them over the fire siren. Much too feisty, those 2. Duggars must be much more passive. & now my gr daughter is just like her mother.

[Hera]

I'm definitely willing to assume the Duggars firmly adhere to the "spare the rod, spoil the child" philosophy and all of them - JB and M, Josh, Jill and Jessa - are likely to spank their kids unless told otherwise. Now, does that include spanking a baby? I hope not, but a mobile toddler, yeah, I bet they do.  I appreciate that there's a wider debate over whether that spanking is physical abuse, but as for physically beating their kids so as to bruise their faces? I haven't seen evidence of that. In the grand scheme of fuckery that is this family, that's not saying much, though.

[choralcrusader8613]

5 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

I don't get how blanket training could possibly work. If I put my 1-1 1/2 yo on a blanket & told them they couldn't go get something out of reach, they would have heard them over the fire siren. Much too feisty, those 2. Duggars must be much more passive. & now my gr daughter is just like her mother.

Michael and Debi Pearl say that you hit the kid enough to break his/her spirit, as much and as long as it takes. That's why so many kids died as a result of their parents using the Pearls' methods; the kids never stopped doing the behaviors that the parents wanted to stop. I mean, this is the same couple who wrote approvingly of a 7-month-old child being switched.

[ksgranola1]

Quote

 

OMG-now I have to go put cold water on my face.

[quiverofdoubt]

10 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

That bruise on his head looks to be a corner of the table type to me. My kids would wobble all the way across the

liroom & then fall face down on the brick fireplace.

I don't get how blanket training could possibly work. If I put my 1-1 1/2 yo on a blanket & told them they couldn't go get something out of reach, they would have heard them over the fire siren. Much too feisty, those 2. Duggars must be much more passive. & now my gr daughter is just like her mother.

I've always wondered the same- about their kids being passive.  I have a friend/acquaintance who appears to be fundie lite. She swats and spanks butts and hands starting around 6 months, and uses a frat paddle by the time they are 3.  Those kids are very quiet, passive and seem closed off and lethargic.  

ksgranola, we must just not prize obedience enough to break our kids in the way @choralcrusader8613 describes. Personally obedience and passivity aren't traits i'm trying to foster in my children.  The only way to get the kid to finally just sit on the blanket is to make leaving the blanket scary and painful. Remember, it's suggested to start this around crawling age i believe.  The blanket training is just the tip of the iceberg in the spirit breaking regime the pearls lay out, i'm sure. They oughtta be in jail.

[Whoosh]

For people that are just catching on to this idea espoused by the Pearls of breaking the spirit of a child totally and completely at a very early age, you should also google "learned helplessness" and read a bit.  It might suddenly start to make more sense why kids raised that way don't just run or even rebel much in smaller ways when they finally have a chance.

ETA - if you have a heart you will want to cry for the dogs.

[Bad Wolf]

I read here a long time ago, that M talked about using a flexible ruler for blanket training, and people wanted to know where to find one. She later took it off her blog. Just repeating what I read here, don't know if it's true, but it wouldn't surprise me. 

I think the Pearls advocate trying to entice the baby off the blanket, then punishing it if it does. Speechless.

[Chickenbutt]

I swatted my boys a time on two, on their butts with an open hand. It was more to get their attention than to hurt them. Sometimes a swat is called for. That was until my 16 y/o son said something exceptionally stupid and ugly to me and I slapped him right across the face. Unfortunately, I had wet hands at the time and left a perfect hand mark on his cheek. Needless to say, he stayed home from school for a few days. But it had the desired effect. He never (nor did his brother) said anything like that to me ever again. I am not proud of it, but it happened. *shrug*

[choralcrusader8613]

19 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I read here a long time ago, that M talked about using a flexible ruler for blanket training, and people wanted to know where to find one. She later took it off her blog. Just repeating what I read here, don't know if it's true, but it wouldn't surprise me. 

I think the Pearls advocate trying to entice the baby off the blanket, then punishing it if it does. Speechless.

I've seen both, but i didn't want to go checking for myself on the second one because it makes me too upset. I can't imagine doing this stuff to any child. This makes me want to go give a hug to the little kids in my life.