Jill, Derick and Israel- Lucky Number 13

[QuiverDance]

As soon as I asked that question, I thought back to my son.  He was highly insulted by his pack and play.  I could not put him in there and not feel horrible.  

 

[2manyKidzzz]

Well, the child has to be safe while you use the bathroom. Some container type device does that safely for this and for meal preparation, for going to another floor for laundry and such. When I read what blanket training really was I was horrified. 

[quiverofdoubt]

1 minute ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Well, the child has to be safe while you use the bathroom. Some container type device does that safely for this and for meal preparation, for going to another floor for laundry and such. When I read what blanket training really was I was horrified. 

I occasionally put the kiddo in her crib, or a bouncy chair (pre mobile). Often I wore her to cook or do chores.  We have a small house though, so our main floor was pretty much baby proofed, and a fairly open floor plan so I could see her most places anyway.  My baby was always super needy when i most needed to get stuff done, so babywearing saved us for that.  It wasn't uncommon for my husband to come home and find me cooking with a baby on my back.

[choralcrusader8613]

30 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

and to the person who put up the pearl quote about "obedience the first time asked" i KNOW i've heard michelle tell her little girls "you need to obey mommy the first time" a line STRAIGHT out of pearl. 

And it's also a Gothard thing. Gothard defines self control as "instant obedience to the initial promptings of God's spirit". Joy-Anna has even said, when she was trying to get the younger kids to practice the song for the dinner theater, say to a kid doing something they weren't supposed to, "Instantly obey."

[quiverofdoubt]

29 minutes ago, nst said:

is it Gothard who demands that you break the spirit of a child - people who follow him must be pretty demented and yes I mean Ma and Pa Duggar to have the need to break the spirit of a baby all for the sake that the baby must be perfect. 

these people take the bible too seriously 

From a lot of the religious people i've listened to the thinking is "they must learn to obey mom and dad so they can obey jesus/the bible" so the more obedient you can get your child the better christian they will be.  the circles they run in tend to expect perfect babies/children, so there's a lot of social pressure to keep your kids up to standards at gatherings.  One reason i avoid a lot of my fundy friend's events. They are very intolerant of normal childhood behaviors

[quiverofdoubt]

For those interested in further reading here are some great articles on why demanding instant unquestioning obedience is bad for children and society:

http://www.ahaparenting.com/blog/Do_You_Want_to_Raise_an_Obedient_Child

http://www.ronitbaras.com/family-matters/parenting-family/obedience-should-you-teach-it-to-your-kids/

http://theunboundedspirit.com/six-reasons-why-demanding-obedience-from-a-child-is-damaging/

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/jan/19/are-obedient-children-a-good-thing

Quote

Some parents nag and demand that their children dress, wash, finish homework, etc…and yet the struggle continues daily. The culprit? Demanding compliance and obedience.  The thing is, constant pushing can make a child become dependent on or worse indifferent to those very reminders. A child may start to think “Why bother until that yell comes about” or “if they really mean it, they’ll yell at me.”In no way do I mean to say children should not be getting dressed, doing homework, respecting limits and so on, but demanding obedience does not create the inner guidance to do what we know is best and correct for that moment, in fact it squashes it.

This quote is especially ironic as the duggars always talk about how they "instill self discipline" in their children. in fact, they are eroding it at every turn.

Basically these articles state that raising obedient children might be more convenient in the short term but causes tons of problems for the children and society in the long term.  However it's clear that lack of critical thinking, independence and the inability to stand up to authority is EXACTLY what gothard and pearl and other such fundamentalist leaders want.

But you if you understand what the extreme focus on obedience does to a developing brain then you can understand why these kids never really fully mature, gain independence and break away.  They simply lack the self worth, critical thought, negotiating skills to stand up to their authority figures.

[Bad Wolf]

I remember Joy trying to get the younger ones to pay attentention. She had to get Jana to help. Made me think that discipline had eased off because of the camera crew.I think blanket training started with Jed and Jer.

[NeverAFundie]

52 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

And it's also a Gothard thing. Gothard defines self control as "instant obedience to the initial promptings of God's spirit". Joy-Anna has even said, when she was trying to get the younger kids to practice the song for the dinner theater, say to a kid doing something they weren't supposed to, "Instantly obey."

I remember the episode that featured Siah's graduation party (April, 2014).  Anna was prepping to take the kids to the grocery store, or some such place, and she looked at Michael very seriously and said that he had to practice self-control.  She asked him if he knew what that means, and then she answered for him.  "Instant obedience."  When the kid was not yet 3 years old. I tend to fall squarely in the "I feel deeply sorry for Anna" camp post-Joshley-scandals, but that creeped me the hell out back then, and still enrages me today. 

[Jucifer]

17 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

 

I'm not sure about cricket bat, it's a large wood paddle with a handle, maybe 18" long? and flat.  she has a mini one that she keeps in her diaper bag when they go out. 

One of my teachers in junior high school had a paddle like that. He had it hanging on the wall behind his desk. 

He called it "the board of education". I was terrified of him.

[choralcrusader8613]

@Jucifer, that's terrible!

[QuiverDance]

I don't claim to be a parenting expert, but I know this much, my kids are much more likely to comply with my wishes when they feel like they have some control.  When I demand obedience NOW!  (and I do at times, I think we all do that sometimes as parents because sometimes it is just necessary) I get more pushback and usually have to remind myself to take a step back and remember how much it SUCKS to be a kid and constantly be told what to do, constantly have your desires deferred "May I have another cookie?  NO."  Etc.  It is so hard sometimes, but I do think it is an important gift to kids to let them have real choices.  

[Jucifer]

1 hour ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

@Jucifer, that's terrible!

Yes, it was terrible.

Unfortunately that seemed to be the standard operating procedure for teachers in the 70s.  At least it was in my school.

I remember when a couple of girls got paddled for calling their teacher by her first name.  Seriously, WTF?

Those days are over, thank goodness!

 

[sophie10130]

2 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

Quote

Some parents nag and demand that their children dress, wash, finish homework, etc…and yet the struggle continues daily. The culprit? Demanding compliance and obedience.  The thing is, constant pushing can make a child become dependent on or worse indifferent to those very reminders. A child may start to think “Why bother until that yell comes about” or “if they really mean it, they’ll yell at me.”In no way do I mean to say children should not be getting dressed, doing homework, respecting limits and so on, but demanding obedience does not create the inner guidance to do what we know is best and correct for that moment, in fact it squashes it.

 

I saw this in my first boyfriend so much. His mom was (is still) a huge nagger and would remind him when his homework and big projects were due, wake him up for work, ask him to do laundry and clean his room. Even when he lived at home and went to college.

I am an obsessive planner, so I have a habit of reminding everyone everything and he HATED it because he said it reminded him of his mom. Super fair. I was still in high school, so I was still learning how to date people. I decided to let him live his own life and not nag.

So senior year rolls around and we are still dating and it was the very last choir concert of the year. It was Senior Night, I had a solo, and they were going to be handing out awards and I was nominated for a few. It was super important. My whole family was going to go. So I tell my boyfriend once about two weeks before the concert that my last concert was coming up. I made sure not to nag him about it and respect his wishes. Well after the concert I go look for him and he's not there. I drive to his house super pissed and ask him to talk to me outside. I asked him what he was doing, and he said he was doing homework that was due next week and I said "Why didn't you come to my concert?" and no shit, he says "Well you only mentioned it once. I didn't think it was that big of a deal. I figured you would have kept reminding me about it if you really wanted me to go"

[quiverofdoubt]

3 hours ago, NeverAFundie said:

I remember the episode that featured Siah's graduation party (April, 2014).  Anna was prepping to take the kids to the grocery store, or some such place, and she looked at Michael very seriously and said that he had to practice self-control.  She asked him if he knew what that means, and then she answered for him.  "Instant obedience."  When the kid was not yet 3 years old. I tend to fall squarely in the "I feel deeply sorry for Anna" camp post-Joshley-scandals, but that creeped me the hell out back then, and still enrages me today. 

You must be really confused to think self discipline = instant obedience.  obedience is doing what an external force tells you to do, for their benefit.  self discipline is defined as giving up momentary pleasures in order to achieve later goals. self discipline has to come from inside and be internally motivated. 

There are many many times i've had to make my under 5 year old be patient or help her wait for something.  I don't say "practice self discipline" i say things like "just a few more minutes to hang in there, you've been doing amazing. A few more minutes to wait then it's your turn/we can go have fun" etc

[Bad Wolf]

4 hours ago, NeverAFundie said:

I remember the episode that featured Siah's graduation party (April, 2014).  Anna was prepping to take the kids to the grocery store, or some such place, and she looked at Michael very seriously and said that he had to practice self-control.  She asked him if he knew what that means, and then she answered for him.  "Instant obedience."  When the kid was not yet 3 years old. I tend to fall squarely in the "I feel deeply sorry for Anna" camp post-Joshley-scandals, but that creeped me the hell out back then, and still enrages me today. 

A 3 year old doesn't understand the words she used. You tell the child you're going to the store and what you expect. Sit in the cart, don't touch, or whatever your rules are. Then you try to involve them in some way. Can you see the oranges. Remind them of your expectations everY So often, and praise them for remembering. It takEs lOnger, bUt worth it.

[ksgranola1]

6 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

As soon as I asked that question, I thought back to my son.  He was highly insulted by his pack and play.  I could not put him in there and not feel horrible.  

 

Babies regard that as the closest thing to prison. My grands would have none of it.

[nastyhobbitses]

3 hours ago, sophie10130 said:

I saw this in my first boyfriend so much. His mom was (is still) a huge nagger and would remind him when his homework and big projects were due, wake him up for work, ask him to do laundry and clean his room. Even when he lived at home and went to college.

I am an obsessive planner, so I have a habit of reminding everyone everything and he HATED it because he said it reminded him of his mom. Super fair. I was still in high school, so I was still learning how to date people. I decided to let him live his own life and not nag.

So senior year rolls around and we are still dating and it was the very last choir concert of the year. It was Senior Night, I had a solo, and they were going to be handing out awards and I was nominated for a few. It was super important. My whole family was going to go. So I tell my boyfriend once about two weeks before the concert that my last concert was coming up. I made sure not to nag him about it and respect his wishes. Well after the concert I go look for him and he's not there. I drive to his house super pissed and ask him to talk to me outside. I asked him what he was doing, and he said he was doing homework that was due next week and I said "Why didn't you come to my concert?" and no shit, he says "Well you only mentioned it once. I didn't think it was that big of a deal. I figured you would have kept reminding me about it if you really wanted me to go"

I understand that it sucked at the time, but assuming you're not happily married to him now or anything, you dodged a bullet.

[twinmama]

23 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

I think the Pearls advocate trying to entice the baby off the blanket, then punishing it if it does. Speechless.

As someone whose kids were at risk for developmental delays and did PT with infants to avoid them and catch them early, it is UNREAL to me that they would try to snuff out a child's exploration. I waited SO LONG and my boys worked so hard to finally be able to reach for a toy they wanted, or crawl, or any of that. The idea that your child would want to grab for a toy off their blanket that you purposely put there and you'd reprimand them is disgusting.

While I don't hit my kids and don't spank, I can semi-understand spanking and the like for misbehavior. But babies exploring is what they do, and what they are SUPPOSED to do. It's not in any way misbehavior!!!

21 hours ago, SportsgalAnnie said:

I know that, I meant in general.I know a bunch of people who dont 

Kinda up to the parents. If you want to literally have your eyes on your child every second of the day without except, sure, don't block off the stairs or plug the outlets. If you want 30 seconds to pee without taking the toddler/s with you, you baby proof at least a little. That said, I baby proofed the every loving shit out of our house, including gating the kids into the big living room for 99% of the day (I was in there with them, small apartment), and they still figure out ways to climb and get hurt. Just nothing deadly with gates, foam around edges of tables, earthquake straps on furniture (had a climber, was afraid he'd tip a desk onto himself if it wasn't strapped down). 

Also depends on the kid, mine were crazy explorers and one was a climber. We went to a friend's house when they were 18 months old and the friend's kid was 15 months. There was a lap top sitting on the floor, plugged in; there was a tv and dvd player at child height, remotes everywhere. My kids would have DESTROYED all of that, but theirs didn't care or touch any of it. Seriously, the idea of leaving my laptop near my 1.5 year olds was hilarious at that point.

[SassyPants]

41 minutes ago, twinmama said:

As someone whose kids were at risk for developmental delays and did PT with infants to avoid them and catch them early, it is UNREAL to me that they would try to snuff out a child's exploration. I waited SO LONG and my boys worked so hard to finally be able to reach for a toy they wanted, or crawl, or any of that. The idea that your child would want to grab for a toy off their blanket that you purposely put there and you'd reprimand them is disgusting.

While I don't hit my kids and don't spank, I can semi-understand spanking and the like for misbehavior. But babies exploring is what they do, and what they are SUPPOSED to do. It's not in any way misbehavior!!!

Kinda up to the parents. If you want to literally have your eyes on your child every second of the day without except, sure, don't block off the stairs or plug the outlets. If you want 30 seconds to pee without taking the toddler/s with you, you baby proof at least a little. That said, I baby proofed the every loving shit out of our house, including gating the kids into the big living room for 99% of the day (I was in there with them, small apartment), and they still figure out ways to climb and get hurt. Just nothing deadly with gates, foam around edges of tables, earthquake straps on furniture (had a climber, was afraid he'd tip a desk onto himself if it wasn't strapped down). 

Also depends on the kid, mine were crazy explorers and one was a climber. We went to a friend's house when they were 18 months old and the friend's kid was 15 months. There was a lap top sitting on the floor, plugged in; there was a tv and dvd player at child height, remotes everywhere. My kids would have DESTROYED all of that, but theirs didn't care or touch any of it. Seriously, the idea of leaving my laptop near my 1.5 year olds was hilarious at that point.

2 the same age is vastly different than 1-

My cousins had twin boys (fertility treatments involved) and then got PG on her own when the boys were 4 mos old. Of course she had another boy. 3 boys within a year and a couple of months. Her family room was a jail-literally.

[EmmieJ]

7 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

As soon as I asked that question, I thought back to my son.  He was highly insulted by his pack and play.  I could not put him in there and not feel horrible.  

  Brings back memories of my son when he was playpen age.  He too did not care to be put in his playpen and let me know it.  Sometimes it was just too bad  - I needed to do something that took my full attention so into the playpen he went.  However, I mostly used that as a last resort.  And Pearl followers will no doubt be disbelieving when I say that my son never burned his hand on the stove, nor got run down by a car, even thought I didn't beat him into submission.

[Bad Wolf]

11 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

  Brings back memories of my son when he was playpen age.  He too did not care to be put in his playpen and let me know it.  Sometimes it was just too bad  - I needed to do something that took my full attention so into the playpen he went.  However, I mostly used that as a last resort.  And Pearl followers will no doubt be disbelieving when I say that my son never burned his hand on the stove, nor got run down by a car, even thought I didn't beat him into submission.

I guess they'd think you were just lucky. Only the fundie ways count, anything else is just fortunate.

[Cleopatra7]

14 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

  Brings back memories of my son when he was playpen age.  He too did not care to be put in his playpen and let me know it.  Sometimes it was just too bad  - I needed to do something that took my full attention so into the playpen he went.  However, I mostly used that as a last resort.  And Pearl followers will no doubt be disbelieving when I say that my son never burned his hand on the stove, nor got run down by a car, even thought I didn't beat him into submission.

The Pearl leghumpers would probably say that your son is a dirty, rotten heathen and his soul is lost, even if his body is intact. Using perceived moral superiority to deflect criticism is a good way to not have to think critically about anything.

[Imrlgoddess]

Am I late to the Derick Instagram game? I just noticed it's open for all to see again. 

[CorruptionInc.]

Just now, Imrlgoddess said:

Am I late to the Derick Instagram game? I just noticed it's open for all to see again. 

Maybe he thinks the rugged look will get the viewers in...

[Jucifer]

Please excuse me, I'm suffering through a terrible, horrible cold and this might not make much sense.  I'm using whatever limited brain power I have to breathe out of both nostrils.   

I wonder what would happen if I talked to my scary junior high school teacher again.

He would be in his 70s now but it's not out of the realm of possibility that I could track him down, especially in these days of social media.

What would come of it?  Probably the most boring story or book or documentary in the history of the world.

Maybe I should pitch it to TLC