BYU Law School investigated for discrimination

[ADoyle90815]

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3459506-155/national-bar-group-looking-into-discrimination

I'm not surprised by this at all.

[Runningfromreality]

I'm not surprised at all either. If BYU gets sanctioned by the ABA for its policies, Liberty's law school will have to watch out as well. When I was looking at which law school to attend a couple of years ago, I actually got some stuff in the mail from Liberty (that I didn't ask for - just wanted to clarify) and out of curiosity I looked at Liberty's code of conduct. It's crazy the things that they expect grown adult law students (and faculty) to do. If I recall correctly, part of their defense of the LGBT discrimination is that it was okay to be gay, but you just can't talk about it or act on it. So they're technically not discriminating against the person or something like that. As far as I'm concerned, college and law school should be times when your belief system is challenged and you're encouraged to think critically. The fact that rethinking your faith at BYU can get you kicked out seems crazy to me. 

[silverspoons]

I'm really not sure why someone who was not LDS would want to attend BYU law school. I had a friend that applied there who was not LDS and actually got in. After getting into several East coast law schools she decided she would get a better education in a more diverse environment.  I think it would be hard to study law around so many people that are like robots spitting out the same opinions.

I also love how BYU law school and undergrad talk about the honor code so much. As long as you look sweet in class, once you are out the door plenty of people are not following the code. Unlike many of the fundie schools discussed here, BYU does not have much on campus housing so their is little control after class when you are renting a room in a house with a bunch of friends.  I also have heard so many stories about the 5th floor of the BYU library and it isn't young students looking at the Arabic Genealogy books.

 

Nothing will happen to BYU. I have been more interested in following the drama at George Wythe University, A small private school in SLC(that actually started in a dentist office in Cedar City)  that has LDS ties and big political ties that looks like is finally being shut down. It was a college aimed at preparing students to be lawyers and politicians with an LDS view. Even as it is sinking and has admitted to giving fraudulent degrees, the governor (who did not even go to college), is still supporting it.

[Imagine20]

Those individual liberties lectures in Con Law must be something.

[Runningfromreality]

9 minutes ago, Imagine20 said:

Those individual liberties lectures in Con Law must be something.

I can't even imagine taking a class like Con Law with only people who are the same religion as you and basically have the same views on everything. We pretty much ran the gamut in our Con Law class, including an orthodox Jew to keep things interesting. Most people in law school already think that they're right about everything, but never having your views challenged seems almost dangerous. I don't see how they could learn to think critically about what they believe if everyone just agrees on everything.

[Jingerbread]

I'm in a heavy Mormon area that is very liberal, and know a lot of Mormons.  I'm talking the liberal ones who think the musical Book of Mormon is the best thing ever.  A lot of them have talked over the years about their time at BYU in unfavorable terms, knowing people who had to hide being gay, having to report their friends to stay out of trouble themselves, and hoping their own kids don't end up there.  That says a lot.

[Whoosh]

I'm a fairly radically liberal atheist from New England and I went to law school in Utah.  Con Law - I still can't really even talk about it LOL.  Sigh.

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

I remember seeing a video about a BYU football player who was Jewish.  He was turned in to the Honor Code office and sanctioned because he was seen at Starbucks and admitted he was drinking coffee.  I can't imagine going to school in that type of environment.  

[lawlifelgbt]

I went to law school, and I can't believe that people at BYU have to hide their orientation/identity like that. At my school. one of the top officials was a lesbian (^{and really young for the position she held and hot, too, if I may say so myself- I ran into her while I was out with a friend who was on my school's wait list, introduced him to help him get off the list, and he later said, "how do you control yourself around her? She's amazing-looking!" But that's neither here nor there} )

But, that was a liberal, highly ranked school in a blue state. I mean, I always thought law school must be different in more conservative states, but I didn't know the schools still held the power to kick students out for being gay or trans! I mean, when you're training lawyers presumably it's best to refrain from blatant discrimination so they do not turn around and sue you?)

[Jana814]

58 minutes ago, TXGirlInAMaterialWorld said:

I remember seeing a video about a BYU football player who was Jewish.  He was turned in to the Honor Code office and sanctioned because he was seen at Starbucks and admitted he was drinking coffee.  I can't imagine going to school in that type of environment.  

I heard about a Basketball player. He wasn't Morman he was turned in for breaking the honor code with his girlfriend. He was a starter & was suspended from the team. 

[justoneoftwo]

Most LDS people I know think poorly of BYU, even those who graduated from it.  Not as bad as BYU Idaho but still.  I didn't go to law school in Utah, but I will say that the bar association seems to have a reasonably diverse set of views.  

[Whoosh]

28 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Most LDS people I know think poorly of BYU, even those who graduated from it.  Not as bad as BYU Idaho but still.  I didn't go to law school in Utah, but I will say that the bar association seems to have a reasonably diverse set of views.  

I mostly agree with this.  I went to U of U and lived and worked in Salt Lake City (sin city).  In terms of colleagues and faculty, particularly in my chosen areas of interest, I do think that the diversity was actually far more impressive than I had expected.  Also, there were no problems outside the standard run of the mill reality that I am personally aware of in terms of institutional discrimination, etc.

On the flip side - it is a very small law school (a bit over 100 per class).  It is well known for having a predominantly white, male, LDS, local student body.  When I was there, the numbers were about 70% male, 90% white, and the vast majority were also local and LDS.  That does greatly alter the classroom experience, particularly with a subject like con law.  

I said I mostly agree because a large percentage of my classmates strongly considered going to BYU instead and many of them very much regret their decision since BYU has somewhat soared ahead of Utah in the rankings (we used to be about equally ranked).  So while I think many LDS people do take issue with some aspects of BYU, many of my fellow classmates absolutely did not.

ETA - interestingly, since many white LDS Utah applicants want to stay in Utah and BYU is what it is, the U of U law school class actually probably had a relatively high percentage of LGBTQ students.  That was openly welcomed by most faculty, administration and some of the student body.

[justoneoftwo]

10 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

I mostly agree with this.  I went to U of U and lived and worked in Salt Lake City (sin city).  In terms of colleagues and faculty, particularly in my chosen areas of interest, I do think that the diversity was actually far more impressive than I had expected.  Also, there were no problems outside the standard run of the mill reality that I am personally aware of in terms of institutional discrimination, etc.

On the flip side - it is a very small law school (a bit over 100 per class).  It is well known for having a predominantly white, male, LDS, local student body.  When I was there, the numbers were about 70% male, 90% white, and the vast majority were also local and LDS.  That does greatly alter the classroom experience, particularly with a subject like con law.  

I said I mostly agree because a large percentage of my classmates strongly considered going to BYU instead and many of them very much regret their decision since BYU has somewhat soared ahead of Utah in the rankings (we used to be about equally ranked).  So while I think many LDS people do take issue with some aspects of BYU, many of my fellow classmates absolutely did not.

ETA - interestingly, since many white LDS Utah applicants want to stay in Utah and BYU is what it is, the U of U law school class actually probably had a relatively high percentage of LGBTQ students.  That was openly welcomed by most faculty, administration and some of the student body.

I'm curious when you went, Utah and SLC have changed greatly recently.  Both the U and BYU have improved their women groups, and have more women than they did.  Both are still mostly LDS and mostly local (it also seems that for the U non local are more likely to be LDS, but that could be observation bias I haven't actually looked at the stats).  

As for problems in Utah generally relating to bias, there is more religious bias than I've seen elsewhere.  In some firms it actually goes the other way.  I also grew up in Utah (mostly) and so sometimes don't even notice things that bother others, so its possible in the greater Utah area there are issues I don't even notice as being abnormal.  

[Whoosh]

57 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I'm curious when you went, Utah and SLC have changed greatly recently.  Both the U and BYU have improved their women groups, and have more women than they did.  Both are still mostly LDS and mostly local (it also seems that for the U non local are more likely to be LDS, but that could be observation bias I haven't actually looked at the stats).  

As for problems in Utah generally relating to bias, there is more religious bias than I've seen elsewhere.  In some firms it actually goes the other way.  I also grew up in Utah (mostly) and so sometimes don't even notice things that bother others, so its possible in the greater Utah area there are issues I don't even notice as being abnormal.  

I was at the U from the mid nineties to about to the mid-late 2000s between grad school and law school.  I liked SL, UT overall, but I was glad to be back among my fellow Massholes

[silverspoons]

8 hours ago, Jingerbread said:

I'm in a heavy Mormon area that is very liberal, and know a lot of Mormons.  I'm talking the liberal ones who think the musical Book of Mormon is the best thing ever.  A lot of them have talked over the years about their time at BYU in unfavorable terms, knowing people who had to hide being gay, having to report their friends to stay out of trouble themselves, and hoping their own kids don't end up there.  That says a lot.

My kids school has to be close to 99% LDS.  Last year over 200(I think was 212) young men went directly from the high school to mission. The class had about 240 boys so these are devout LDS. I was surprised as I looked at the college map that very few are going to BYU. While most stay in state, USU, SUU, and UVU are the schools of choice over BYU. I know part is economics , students with a good grades get to go for free to state schools, BYU is no longer the school of choice. 20 years ago it was Red (U of U) vs blue (BYU) everywhere. I see very little if any blue anymore. SUU and DSU are also red. Long gone are the lawns dyed blue with a Y or BYU flags flying off the back of the minivan.

What still is a HUGE problem is LDS youth in my area just won't leave the state(a few kids might go to ID or CO). 2 kids last year out of over 500 left to go out of the intermountain west for college and our high school is ranked #2-3 in the state. The guidance office has no information on the SAT or out of area schools. They make you watch this stupid video with the cup song  that explain why you need to stay in Utah for college and parents are sucked in. Last year I could not watch it and stood outside. I was with a dad and told him my child wanted to go out of state so I wasn't watching again. The dad said his daughters dream was to go out of state but he was told it was too expensive and he told her not to apply so she was settling for SUU. She had a 4.0, great artist , volunteer work , good ACT scores, the whole package but the school scared her parents with this cup song video.

The long term consequences in a cycle of low middle class nearing poverty for some because staying in state limits choices of majors and programs. There are so many unfilled professional jobs in our area because Utah schools don't have the programs or limited slots and no one wants to move here that isn't LDS for lower wages and the lifestyle the area offers.

 

[crawfishgirl]

In the late 90's, I used to watch The Real World, and they had a BYU student on the show.  She was eventually suspended from the school because she broke the honor code by living in a house with unrelated males.  I just googled it, and here is some info about that situation on her Wiki page:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Stoffer

[Marshmallow World]

Okay, I work in law in SLC and live in Happy Valley (shout out to my other Utahns!) - a huge reason why some people go to BYU, including my incredibly liberal boss, is that it's cheap. So cheap. I mean, the U is pretty cheap as law schools go, but many people suck it up for a few years to have considerably less debt from going to BYU. I couldn't handle it, personally. I like my coffee, alcohol and sex [emoji23]

[justoneoftwo]

Just a side note, we have a huge number of Utahns here!  

[Jana814]

45 minutes ago, silverspoons said:

My kids school has to be close to 99% LDS.  Last year over 200(I think was 212) young men went directly from the high school to mission. The class had about 240 boys so these are devout LDS. I was surprised as I looked at the college map that very few are going to BYU. While most stay in state, USU, SUU, and UVU are the schools of choice over BYU. I know part is economics , students with a good grades get to go for free to state schools, BYU is no longer the school of choice. 20 years ago it was Red (U of U) vs blue (BYU) everywhere. I see very little if any blue anymore. SUU and DSU are also red. Long gone are the lawns dyed blue with a Y or BYU flags flying off the back of the minivan.

What still is a HUGE problem is LDS youth in my area just won't leave the state(a few kids might go to ID or CO). 2 kids last year out of over 500 left to go out of the intermountain west for college and our high school is ranked #2-3 in the state. The guidance office has no information on the SAT or out of area schools. They make you watch this stupid video with the cup song  that explain why you need to stay in Utah for college and parents are sucked in. Last year I could not watch it and stood outside. I was with a dad and told him my child wanted to go out of state so I wasn't watching again. The dad said his daughters dream was to go out of state but he was told it was too expensive and he told her not to apply so she was settling for SUU. She had a 4.0, great artist , volunteer work , good ACT scores, the whole package but the school scared her parents with this cup song video.

The long term consequences in a cycle of low middle class nearing poverty for some because staying in state limits choices of majors and programs. There are so many unfilled professional jobs in our area because Utah schools don't have the programs or limited slots and no one wants to move here that isn't LDS for lower wages and the lifestyle the area offers.

 

Wow just wow!!  I live in NJ. My old High School is one of the top in the state. When it comes to colleges the guidance office is always filled with information about out of state schools.  Many students still go instate (Rutgers was a big one for my class). But if a student had a special interest (art or acting) the guidance office always try to get the information for the student  

[lawlifelgbt]

So I just realized. The BYU students are honestly expected to make it through three years of law school...without any caffeine? Holy shit.

Maybe it's because they're just not the same caliber of school as mine (I went to a tier one), but I definitely needed coffee constantly through my whole time in law school, because we just had so much work. The school even offered free coffee during all finals and on holidays and study days. All you could drink, Starbucks roasts, which have the most caffeine per ounce of any major brand. We had our own limited coffee shop (regular coffee and some hot drinks, with flavors limited to a few and no frappucinos), and the line could be 10 deep in the morning. The law students also used the tunnels between us and the other graduate buildings, exclusively for getting to the full service Starbucks at the business school without braving the cold Minnesota outdoors. And in morning classes, you were weird if you DIDN'T have a thermos or Starbucks cup. When the Westlaw reps would come, the most popular freebie they gave away were thermoses. Which everyone took and led to arguments over, "This is my thermos, not yours!" "How was I supposed to know, they're exactly alike!"

I think the BYU people must either have a caffeine black market, or they fall asleep in class all the time.

[Jana814]

1 hour ago, crawfishgirl said:

In the late 90's, I used to watch The Real World, and they had a BYU student on the show.  She was eventually suspended from the school because she broke the honor code by living in a house with unrelated males.  I just googled it, and here is some info about that situation on her Wiki page:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Stoffer

I remember Julie and the issue their was with the honor code. (It was the last season of the Real World I watched).  She was the only reason why I watched that season. 

[Whoosh]

3 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

I remember Julie and the issue their was with the honor code. (It was the last season of the Real Workd I watched).  She was the only reason why I watched that season. 

And Eric!  Julie and Eric.  I had such high hopes.

[Bad Wolf]

Quote

I think they're allowed to drink Pepsi for the caffeine. Too bad if it's cold outside. Nothing like an ice cold Pepsi to warm you up.

 

[Runningfromreality]

1 hour ago, lawlifelgbt said:

Maybe it's because they're just not the same caliber of school as mine (I went to a tier one), but I definitely needed coffee constantly through my whole time in law school, because we just had so much work.

I go to a tier two school and still need at least two cups of coffee a day at the very minimum, as do most people I know. However, one of my friends is ranked first in our class and she doesn't drink coffee at all, I'll never figure that one out. 

[justoneoftwo]

There are non coffee ways to get caffeine, also I wonder if people never start drinking it do they need it as much?