Josh Duggar Part 11 - The End of Rehab Is in Sight

[2manyKidzzz]

31 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Prosecutors can elect to prosecute or not.  Further, there are some ways people claim to not be paying for the sex exactly, which can make the prosecution more difficult and not worth it, if you look at her complaint it skirts the issue.  Lastly, some places have a policy of not charging for prostitution, or only charging the johns, or only charging pimps, because there are many policy reasons to do so.  Basically, by saying you were paid for sex you take a risk, but many people are not charged.   

Okay, thanks. I have no real personal opinion overall, I think either of them could be lying, of course they could. We'll see, should be interesting. 

[Whoosh]

1 minute ago, justoneoftwo said:

Many groups and people do think that the model of only buying sex is illegal is not working out as well as hoped.  Although those are usually the same groups who are pushing for total legality, so that may be a part of their opinion, they don't want to eliminate the sex trade.  I am inclined to agree with you that arresting sex workers doesn't seem like a good plan, although to be honest I'm not 100% sure what the best policy would be.  

It is really hard to know if somehow we could effect social change to the point that there were not people looking to purchase sex.  History tends to indicate that won't happen.  For that reason, I and for legalization of the industry.  At least that way there would be some regulation and some greater measure of safety for sex workers (who will always exist if we can't eradicate the market).

[justoneoftwo]

Just now, Whoosh said:

It is really hard to know if somehow we could effect social change to the point that there were not people looking to purchase sex.  History tends to indicate that won't happen.  For that reason, I and for legalization of the industry.  At least that way there would be some regulation and some greater measure of safety for sex workers (who will always exist if we can't eradicate the market).

I think you are probably right, I'm not sure what restrictions should be put on it, how to regulate it, and so on.  As with any large policy change its complex.  

[Bad Wolf]

I worked in a prison, a long time ago, and we had women in there who had tested HIV+ after their first arrest. The second time got them prison because of knowingly putting others at risk. Don't know what the rules are now.

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, Bad Wolf said:

I worked in a prison, a long time ago, and we had women in there who had tested HIV+ after their first arrest. The second time got them prison because of knowingly putting others at risk. Don't know what the rules are now.

That is a really interesting complication.  I wonder what the rules are now.  

[Whoosh]

I don't know much about this, but I know in many jurisdictions you can be arrested and incarcerated for having sex with unknowing partners if you are HIV positive - it doesn't have to be for money.  I can't recall what the charge is, but it is more in line with assault or something related to a deadly weapon.  Don't quote that or repeat it, cause that isn't really a good way to say it at all.  LOL.  Anyway, that is as much as I know.

[church_of_dog]

20 hours ago, Whoosh said:

People saying, based on the completely incomplete and entirely inconclusive information that we currently have, that "she is totally unbelievable" or that "she has zero credibility" disturbs me to no end.  Refusing to believe that inconsistencies in the retelling of these types of stories is so common as to be almost expected is just NUTTERS.  

I am reminded (and hopefully this is in alignment with your point here, which I think it is) of the movie The Accused, where Jodie Foster plays a raped woman who doesn't present an especially classy image -- and the challenges of making her case, legally, in spite of people's stereotypes about her.

18 hours ago, Curious said:

Knit vs purl  AND GO!

Toe-up socks vs. top-down socks?  And in a really amusing (well, to me at least) coming together of two normally-unrelated topics, the standard yarny argument is generally over knitters vs. crocheters...  who are otherwise known as... hookers.  I'll just show myself out...

[Whoosh]

1 minute ago, church_of_dog said:

I am reminded (and hopefully this is in alignment with your point here, which I think it is) of the movie The Accused, where Jodie Foster plays a raped woman who doesn't present an especially classy image -- and the challenges of making her case, legally, in spite of people's stereotypes about her.

Toe-up socks vs. top-down socks?  And in a really amusing (well, to me at least) coming together of two normally-unrelated topics, the standard yarny argument is generally over knitters vs. crocheters...  who are otherwise known as... hookers.  I'll just show myself out...

1.  That is exactly what I am getting at.  The Accused was a really hard watch for me.

2.  OMG lol

[OnceUponATime]

13 minutes ago, church_of_dog said:

Toe-up socks vs. top-down socks?  And in a really amusing (well, to me at least) coming together of two normally-unrelated topics, the standard yarny argument is generally over knitters vs. crocheters...  who are otherwise known as... hookers.  I'll just show myself out...

don't you mean continental style vs English style? I learnt english style as a kid and decided at christmas time it was time to learn to knit again so I went continental

[Idolatry]

20 hours ago, Catey said:

Why must people continue to call the "the porn star" or "stripper". Yes she has engaged in sex work. She is not trying to hide that. I engage in art work. No one would call me "the artist" who did this or that..

These types of work are legal. It is her choice to engage in them, by engaging in them she signed no form that forfeited her right to not be protected by all the same laws that protect everyone else. Even if taken to the extreme you are still not responsible for causing yourself to be harmed. Yes we all should be careful, however we also should be able to be careless without the end result being an unwanted sexual encounter of any type.

I don't care if she agreed to the encounter, I don't care if she was paid for the encounter, I don't care if she agreed to another encounter after the 1st, I don't care what other things that she did prior or after, I think that if she says she was hurt by the encounter she should be allowed to proceed to prove her case.

Do I like her? I don't know, I think that she has made some bad choices. I also think that when we start looking at the person who is claiming to be the victim instead of the person who is accused we open up a slippery slope for all women. We step by step take ourselves back to women on the stand having to prove their virtue in sexual assault cases. 

For all I know she is a big fat liar, however until i know that for sure I am never going to be #team perpetrator 

Wha?  If she were a nurse, the headline would say NURSE SUES.  Of course they "call her" what she is.

I don't see stating her profession, which she is pretty upfront about and is very public, as victim blaming.  And I do see it as relevant to someone who may or may not be looking for their 15 minutes in the middle of a big media blitz.

[Whoosh]

29 minutes ago, Idolatry said:

Wha?  If she were a nurse, the headline would say NURSE SUES.  Of course they "call her" what she is.

I don't see stating her profession, which she is pretty upfront about and is very public, as victim blaming.  And I do see it as relevant to someone who may or may not be looking for their 15 minutes in the middle of a big media blitz.

Maybe I read it wrong, but I believe she was referring to people on FJ, not tabloid headline writers trying to capitalize on the big media blitz.  

[EmmieJ]

2 hours ago, Whoosh said:

It is really hard to know if somehow we could effect social change to the point that there were not people looking to purchase sex.  History tends to indicate that won't happen.  For that reason, I and for legalization of the industry.  At least that way there would be some regulation and some greater measure of safety for sex workers (who will always exist if we can't eradicate the market).

Yeah, I don't think the demand for sex for pay will ever be gone from society.  So since it isn't going anywhere, I do think it should be legalized and then those that sell women for sex outside the law are vigorously and mercilessly prosecuted, focusing on pimps and johns most severely.  If the demand slowed to a trickle for illegal sex workers, then maybe we could at least get some real protections put in place for those who do work in the sex trade.  It's such a horrifying and sickening social ill - children forced into sex, sexual trafficking across borders, and mostly men of course profiting off forcing girls and women into prostitution.  I think the focus of law enforcement should be on arresting the pimps and the johns, giving them long prison sentences and serious financial penalties.  With each subsequent arrest and prosecution, the penalty should increase.  Third strike for pimps - life imprisonment.  Third strike for johns - ten years in prison and a $100,000 fine.  I mean, make it extremely severe.  Pimps are almost the lowest life form I can imagine.

[vienna]

I know itS tabliods but  it seems reasonable to me that this could be true: http://hollywoodlife.com/2016/01/27/jim-bob-michelle-duggar-divorcing-josh-marriage-problems/

Also I believe that long before the molestation scandal broke and it was all just rumors, it has also been said that Michelle found the punishment that the church wanted to strong and even turned to non-church-People (!!) I guess her Family for advice.

And if this is true, HOLY SHIT! I am getting my Popcorn and want to watch from the front row

“Any counseling the family has gotten over the years,” explained a source to InTouch, “from when they discovered Josh molested his sisters until now — will be admissible in court.”

(Quotation is from: http://www.wetpaint.com/danica-dillon-duggars-secrets-revealed-1469139/)

But honestly, I can not imageine that the Content of counseling is admissible in court in general and if it could only be the one Josh had. Since his "counseling" was not done by a real professional it would be "normal" people  from the Duggar church and I expect them to lie without even beeing ashamed since they have to do something to defend themselves against this obvious agenda....

[Mothership]

3 hours ago, church_of_dog said:

Toe-up socks vs. top-down socks?  And in a really amusing (well, to me at least) coming together of two normally-unrelated topics, the standard yarny argument is generally over knitters vs. crocheters...  who are otherwise known as... hookers.  I'll just show myself out...

Toe up definitely.  Once I learned to knit them that way, I never went back.   Now I'm working on looping a circular needle and knitting both socks at once.

And now, back to our topic...

[karen77]

7 minutes ago, Mothership said:

Toe up definitely.  Once I learned to knit them that way, I never went back.   Now I'm working on looping a circular needle and knitting both socks at once.

And now, back to our topic...

my main challenge with toe up.... getting the right bind off, they are always too tight!! but I think I found one finally. But I'm not adverse to top down either.

 

Two at a time is the only way though!!

[ShebrewDefrauder]

3 hours ago, church_of_dog said:

Toe-up socks vs. top-down socks?  And in a really amusing (well, to me at least) coming together of two normally-unrelated topics, the standard yarny argument is generally over knitters vs. crocheters...  who are otherwise known as... hookers.  I'll just show myself out...

I'll out myself here as a bistitchual! I am both a proud knitter (continental!) and a proud hooker, and I love them equally! And I know amongst my knitting friends there is also always the argument over circular needles vs. double pointed needles when working in the round. I am a fan of circulars and using the Magic Loop method, but I also have DPNs for when they are necessary to finish projects off. When it comes to crochet, I think the biggest dispute is usually over pencil style grip and knife-style grip. I've been trying to use pencil since it's supposed to be easier on the wrist but I am finding it close to impossible since I'm so used to the knife grip. Sorry not sorry to drag the conversation yet still away from Joshley's legal indiscretions. 

[lotsuvyarn]

I  knitting and crocheting. Especially socks. That is all I have to add. 

[Fundie Bunny]

21 minutes ago, ShebrewDefrauder said:

I'll out myself here as a bistitchual! I am both a proud knitter (continental!) and a proud hooker, and I love them equally! . 

It has taken me a while yo realize that you are not a proud prostitute 

[karen77]

15 minutes ago, lotsuvyarn said:

I  knitting and crocheting. Especially socks. That is all I have to add. 

Have you seen Claire Ellen's designs?? They have the nerd factor and are super cool on top of it (top down only though...)

http://www.ravelry.com/designers/claire-ellen

 

 

sorry for all the yarn talk!

[TeaGrannie]

Loving the yarn talk. Two at a time toe up in the round is what I've found easiest so far. Well with my vast experience of one completed pair of cuff down and my first toe ups on the needles. Will have to pop over to the knitting threads to join the chatter. 

 

[Bad Wolf]

Yay. More knitters. I think it was Joy who liked to knit. She got a bag for her birthday that she said she would use for her knitting. I wonder if she was able to pursue this. There is wonderful help on the internet, but she would probably not be allowed to browse. And, of course, she's been promoted to sister mom, so there's probably not much time. Sigh.

There, I've brought it back around to the Duggars.

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

3 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

Yeah, I don't think the demand for sex for pay will ever be gone from society.  So since it isn't going anywhere, I do think it should be legalized and then those that sell women for sex outside the law are vigorously and mercilessly prosecuted, focusing on pimps and johns most severely.  If the demand slowed to a trickle for illegal sex workers, then maybe we could at least get some real protections put in place for those who do work in the sex trade.  It's such a horrifying and sickening social ill - children forced into sex, sexual trafficking across borders, and mostly men of course profiting off forcing girls and women into prostitution.  I think the focus of law enforcement should be on arresting the pimps and the johns, giving them long prison sentences and serious financial penalties.  With each subsequent arrest and prosecution, the penalty should increase.  Third strike for pimps - life imprisonment.  Third strike for johns - ten years in prison and a $100,000 fine.  I mean, make it extremely severe.  Pimps are almost the lowest life form I can imagine.

I absolutely agree with every single sentence you wrote. Make it a legal, tax-paying profession - coincidentally, like it is already in a number of countries around the world. Require periodic health checks and testing, mostly for the safety of the worker, but also the legal clients. Crack down on illegal, forced prostitution, child pornography, and trafficking, crack down without mercy on the pimps and johns, with progressively more severe penalties. Absolutely! 

[Bad Wolf]

It's legal outside the city limits in Nevada.

[InThePrayerCloset]

11 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

Prosecutors can elect to prosecute or not.  Further, there are some ways people claim to not be paying for the sex exactly, which can make the prosecution more difficult and not worth it, if you look at her complaint it skirts the issue.  Lastly, some places have a policy of not charging for prostitution, or only charging the johns, or only charging pimps, because there are many policy reasons to do so.  Basically, by saying you were paid for sex you take a risk, but many people are not charged.   

Exactly. The money likely changed hands "for a private lap dance" or for "company". She also alleges they had sex, but the financial transaction and the intercourse are stated as being entirely separate... Of course lawyers, judges and the general public see through this, but that's how it can be done without risking prosecution for prostitution. 

[sndral]

Nothing better for getting through a long plane flight than a fairly simple knitting project. Added bonus - TSA has to let my knitting needles on the plane, somehow that gives me a thrill every time, warped I know.

Lately I've been fixated on complex lace pattern scarves. I can find a YouTube how to for any stitch that stumps me and something about having to be so precise for the pattern to work seems to appeal to my generally easy going haphazard approach to things.

On topic, someone asked up thread what effect the fact that prostitution was illegal in Pennsylvania would have on the case. I know nothing of Pennsylvania tort law but I assume that the reason Josh's attorney alleged an affirmative defense of 'unclean hands' (aka laches) was to argue that because Danica engaged in an illegal act (prostitution) she can't seek redress. Whether that's a valid affirmative defense in Pa. I don't know and as noted there's probably ways to argue it doesn't apply in this case.