Negative effects of the patriarchy on males

[ADoyle90815]

23 hours ago, Sundaymorning said:

While I do agree that there are some women who truly want this at first, I don't think it "suits" them in a way that they are able to live a life of decent quality. While they might not have any problems submitting to a kind and loving husband, fundie life will take its toll regardless, unless there are some circumstances in their favour such as not being too fertile and having a lot of money.

Having 10+ kids while having to homeschool them will damage about any women's physical and mental health. Throw in the financial problems most families with so many kids and only one income face and the usually heavy outside pressure from fellow cult members, and it is a wonder if a woman doesn't go off the deep end.

Most of the fundie women we discuss here seem to have mental or physical health issues. J'Chelle had a nervous break-down when she had "only" about 6-7 kids and then simply checked and let the J'Slaves raise her children. ZsuZsu seems to be tired and worn out all the time. Teri suffered from depressions (which of course can happen to anyone, but living in a patriarchal system makes dealing with such an illness a lot worse). And the list goes on.

Yes, there might be some women who truly thrive in patriarchy, but most of them suffer, whether they want to admit it (even to themselves) or not.

In a way, I'm surprised there hasn't been more cases like Andrea Yates who had severe mental problems because of the QF lifestyle, and continuing to have children against doctors' advice. So far, while most of the fundie women we discuss seem to have issues, at this point, the worst that has happened is sweeping their oldest son's molestation of his sisters under the rug.

[Othello]

This is an important discussion and I'm glad it's being held. To be honest, it's disappointing to see comments along the lines of "but it really hurts women more so let's talk about that instead." Don't be like the dudes who butt in on twitter with a #NotAllMen every time a woman talks about sexual assault or harassment. Full disclosure, I'm a guy, but I'm a guy who was raised in an insular fundie environment and in my experience christian patriarchy screws over everyone but a select few. It's more of an oligarchy.

[Sundaymorning]

7 minutes ago, ADoyle90815 said:

In a way, I'm surprised there hasn't been more cases like Andrea Yates who had severe mental problems because of the QF lifestyle, and continuing to have children against doctors' advice. So far, while most of the fundie women we discuss seem to have issues, at this point, the worst that has happened is sweeping their oldest son's molestation of his sisters under the rug.

I'm not so sure about that. We only really see a small glimpse into the life of a few families who choose to portray themselves on the internet. And who, no matter what they claim, will certainly not tell the whole truth of what is going on behind closed doors. For example, you can only read between the lines that Teri's depression was probably way worse than they let on, and I truly pity her children who had to grow up not only with Stevehova as a father, but with a mother who had an untreated, serious illness. 

And I really don't want to know what goes on in many patriarchal homes where the wife doesn't have a blog or tv show. I know she is not liked here on free jinger, but I think Vyckie Garrison gave some good insights of what life must be like for so many quiverfull women.

[justoneoftwo]

4 minutes ago, Othello said:

This is an important discussion and I'm glad it's being held. To be honest, I'm a little disappointed by the number of people who came to comment along the lines of "but it really hurts women more so let's talk about that instead." Don't be like the asshole dudes who butt in on twitter with a #NotAllMen every time a woman talks about sexual assault or harassment. Full disclosure, I'm a guy, but I'm a guy who was raised in an insular fundie environment and my personal experience with the harmfulness of christian patriarchy is a legitimate experience.

This is a great point, while there is plenty of concern to go around sometimes the conversation gets sidetracked into only one issue, which is not helpful and can make it harder for people who could use help to find it.  

[THERetroGamerNY]

28 minutes ago, Sundaymorning said:

And I really don't want to know what goes on in many patriarchal homes where the wife doesn't have a blog or tv show. I know she is not liked here on free jinger, but I think Vyckie Garrison gave some good insights of what life must be like for so many quiverfull women.

I was unaware that she was disliked here. That makes me feel a bit better about my feeling towards her...

She has a 30-minute interview spot on Quiverfull on the Al Jazeera News channel this Friday at 9:30pm EST ... I will watch merely to see what she says, and what all they show.

She doesn't speak for me, or for ex-QF men in particular I've noted.

[Othello]

In my experience, as a young man who was raised in an insular fundie environment, here are a handful of ways that it damages men.

- While a brand of machismo is preached, most typical aspects of maleness are stifled in practice. Girls often thrive better in the confines of homeschool culture because typically feminine studies are permitted or encouraged, while the boys have little outlet for activity and self-expression. Sports, etc. are discouraged. You're all expected to fit in the rank and file in the homeschool family, leaving little room for developing masculine interests or expression; boys are almost expected to be genderless.

- Sexuality is discouraged in any form. There's a lot of talk about how this affects the girls, but believe it or not boys are just as rigorously shamed over their sexuality, are expected to remain pure in thought and action, aren't told how bodies function. I got my definition of sex from the dictionary, and spent many sleepless nights praying against sexual thoughts, which as we know will never happen for a teenage boy. You're essentially castrated by the culture and are constantly shamed for the most natural of thoughts or sensations, and are raised to be uncomfortable and unconfident in your own body. There are a few loud voices (Doug Wilson, Mark Driscoll, etc) who are very vocal about male sexuality but for most fundies male and female sexuality are taboo alike.

- You're expected to submit entirely to parents and authority figures down to minutiae (my mom would curate my wardrobe, it wasn't just the girls), never allowed space to make decisions of your own, and then criticized for not leading. You're between a rock and a hard place.

- You're expected to be proactive and create a career ex nihilo, and aren't provided with tools to start with—home education, very rarely allowed a college education, limited and monitored access to the internet. The weight of expectation is huge, but you're set up to fail. I now have a career as an illustrator, thankfully a career which a college education isn't an absolute necessity, but for most career paths, having no degree or education will cripple you from the start.

- Any sensitive or artistic young men are criticized for being effeminate or accused of being gay, which is of course possibly the greatest accusation or amount of guilt that can be put on a young man in that culture. I spent a chunk of time living with a family attending the NCFIC's Hope Baptist, and caught a lot of flak for having a cursory interest in fashion, loving music and having artistic tendencies. I ended up becoming pretty depressed and had suicidal thoughts. It's a lose-lose—you're not permitted to develop maleness, nor permitted to enjoy intellectual pursuits as that's perceived as effeminacy.

Have to get back to work and hit a deadline but these are a few thoughts and experiences I've had growing up as a guy in a fundie environment. The christian patriarchy doesn't benefit the men trapped within it, solely the leaders who hold sway by guilting their followers into crushing expectations and submission. It's an oligarchy, not a boys' club.

[Runningfromreality]

This topic just got extremely real for me, as I just found out that one of my close friends from college committed suicide. The main gist of the problem was that he had begun to identify as genderqueer, and his (very christian) family told him in no uncertain terms that that was not okay, because God had made him a man and he should be embracing his masculinity. It makes me so mad the kind of damage patriarchy can do, as he was a wonderful person who befriended me as an awkward college freshman and even helped me through my own bout with depression. Of course this an extreme example, but patriarchal societies do untold amounts of damage to men who dare to be the slightest bit different. 

[Hisey]

One thing that is obvious to me is that fundy men are really messed up sexually. It seems so joyless to the wives, and such an obligation. They "give" their men sex. Even when a couple is sharing a hotel room with the kids, the men "have to have it" or they get sulky and crabby.  I can remember Cabinetman telling his wife "Every other day. Forever." when she was trying to decide whether to stay with him and he was laying out the terms. 

Maybe it's me, but this type of thinking is totally foreign to me. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

Yeah... The sexual repression is fairly epic-level...

[PraiseDog]

I'm not male, Fundy, or past Fundy, but I can't help feeling sorry for the way Fundy males are trained for sexual activity.  They're told all through teenage years that even thinking about it is a sin, let alone masturbation.  But Hallejullah,  once you get married you get to to have all the sex you could ever want, and it' s SO AWESOME!  But it turns out to be really not that great.  Not even as good as masturbation, which most of them have probably done while feeling full of sinful guilt. And sex with their new wife might be even worse, because she obviously is scared/ doesn' t enjoy your clueless fumblings but isn' t allowed to say so/ is trained to just be a robot.  For a guy who loves his wife or is a caring person, how disappointing. Maybe some couples who love each other eventually learn to communicate (secretly, I guess) about enjoying each other  sexually? I hope so.  Then the kids come along, and you' re just as clueless.   Even though lots of babies were around when you were young, you weren't supposed to be interested because that's gay OMG.  So now your own kids are here but the only interaction you have with them that's acceptable is to discipline  them (ie beat them.) I feel sorry for those dads who aren' t really allowed to care for their wives or their kids in  a loving way.

 

[Dandruff]

It must be challenging sometimes to make it with your robot/sweetheart, knowing that every encounter may result in another pregnancy.  I'm not saying that these men don't want children, but I imagine there's ambivalence sometimes.  They can't abort, generally under any circumstance.  Kids could end up without a mom.  New baby might have severe medical issues.  Each additional child, even if perfectly healthy, will require additional income for (at least minimal) support.  You might like children but not want anymore after the first five or fifteen.  Jesus is supposed to provide, but it's not clear when, and what if you're already praying all day?  And if you're completely stressed out - try not to show it.  Folks will think you lack faith and/or fortitude.

[CTRLZero]

20 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

You might like children but not want anymore after the first five or fifteen.

Great post.  I wrote about my neighbors above where the patriarch's wife took a stance resulting in limiting her family size to eight children.  Most of their children are now adult or close to it.  I ran into the patriarch a couple of years ago, and he expressed dismay that his oldest married son had only had one child in three (now five) years of marriage.  Guess there is some sort of family planning going on in the second generation.  It's interesting following these families unto the second and third generations, that's for sure.

[onlyme]

Patriarchy ruined my marriage and has been very destructive to my husband, for a lot of the reasons people have already mentioned. I just wanted to add that I think another part of it is that it's easier for women to see the damage, find articulation because there's articles and blogs you can turn to, and be able to find healing. But the abuse toward the men is harder to spot. The language makes it seem like they are being exalted. But really, they are under tremendous pressure, and are practically forced into an abusive position by the doctrine. There's like this competition over whose "protecting" their daughters the most, whose "respected" the most, etc. Also, the husband is constantly told he is responsible BEFORE GOD for what happens in his family. So, like, when I left the church, in a way it is seen as my damaging his relationship with God. He couldn't make me go back, yet he's responsible. And if the wife helps at all with financial support it's seen as a failure. My husband has left the church we were in, but he still can't see how all this has damaged his relationships with his family. But at least he's not under all the peer pressure, so he's much more relaxed. 

I would like to see more work done on this in professional fields. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

@onlyme That particular line of thinking, that it is easier for women to see the damage than the men... that has been a deeply-reflective topic, and nowadays a passion, in my life. Mostly in the aspect of it was my own self-education, my own passionate desire for knowledge, that caused me to see what my pre-destined future would hold.

In other words: Education saved my life.

I do not feel this is an exaggeration, I honestly have thought about this and come to this conclusion.

Education, in the form of blogs, articles, and even specials on cults on TV - this is education that can lift a woman out of male tyranny.

That is why I didn't want until 75 posts (to get into the Illuminati forum) to make my story heard: It kinda needs to be indexed by Google. It needs to be public. I have no shame over my past.

My own brother-in-law made a "joke" about Quiverfull once, and said, "Man, why'd you even run from that? You would've had it made." A sexist, ignorant, remark in extreme poor taste that got a swift "Fuck you" from me (he is a devotee of a local mega-church, and we have never seen eye-to-eye).

There is nothing funny about structured repression.

[refugee]

On 1/26/2016 at 7:10 PM, salex said:

But remember the mantra, that made me pound my steering wheel the first time I heard it (which was also the first time I heard Voddie whats his name) 

It is better to be holy than happy..... 

Which I take to mean in patriarchy, fundie-ism and Lorken world means 

Misery Loves Company

I first heard it in a Kay Arthur Precept study, before we fell down the fundiedom rabbit hole...

On 1/26/2016 at 7:27 PM, December said:

Are there currently any examples of multi-generational fundie families that might provide some insight on the harm toward both genders? I'm talking where the grandkids are fully grown (not just young children). 

I agree with the great points others have already set out in the thread. While patriarchy certainly benefits men the most, it's harmful to people of both sexes. For the boys in fundie families, it seems like most of them are being set up to fail. And because of the whole kidult system, the serious economic woes won't likely come until they're already financially responsible for a wife and multiple children.

Y'know, that was one of the problems we ran into. There really weren't any families to point to. The "godly older couples" in our churches had their own issues: past divorce, wayward children--but the older folks sure talked a good talk, and the "godliest" (in the truest sense of the word) of them were not legalistic or judgmental, but had the perspective of years of living and having made mistakes and lived with the results, that made them empathetic and loving.

We were sort of on the cutting edge of the new movement, and the gurus with loud voices were extremely persuasive and painted a glowing picture, but IIRC most of them were also first-generation.

HA was the first thing that broke me out of my miserable "well others are doing it, and doing it right (meaning, "making it look good") so I've just got to figure out what I'm doing wrong..."

I mean, I'd seen ripples on the pond (or would it be ground tremors?) from families that were blowing apart, or losing individual kids, but it always got explained away so convincingly.

HA and Recovering Grace consolidated many voices (and to a degree, despite its flaws, JensGems, mainly because it was the first crack in the Doug Phillips shiny shell that I stumbled upon, on the internet, in our highly assimilated culture), and told me I wasn't crazy to question the system. Some time after that, I discovered FJ.

The guy who became the loudest voice at our church was able to point to the generations of christians in his family. I don't know if it went back beyond his grandparents. It gave him cred.

Make that crud.

[luv2laugh]

My opinion is that patriarchy FEARS women. They are afraid of women stealing all of the jobs from men. I think the large majority of patriarchial families are crunchy and have their wives homebirth because what would they do if they go to the hospital and are being treated by an intelligent Muslim female doctor? They'd have a cardiac arrest, but hey, at least they'd be in the right place at the right time to have one! It's being reported that more than half of women are going to medical school to become doctors so it's on the way of being like nursing and becoming mostly a women dominated field. In fact, it's also being reported that more women than men enter college right now. Patriarchy has to keep women down and belittle the abilities of women to feel better about themselves.

[refugee]

On 1/26/2016 at 10:08 AM, libriatrix said:

Or to not even making the decisions themselves! My first relationship was broken off because the guy adored his deeply controlling, patriarchal father who treated him quite literally like a child, to the point that he believed he wasn't an adult till he got married, no matter when he got married. He wasn't supposed to make his own decisions until his wedding day, at which point he would somehow be magically adult and mature. (snip) I only hope his dad actually did stop making his decisions on his wedding day.... frankly I find it hard to believe that he would: I think the lure of power is too strong.

FWIW, I grew up in a non-religious family with highly controlling parents, especially my dad. I'm not proud of it, but I was still calling my dad for advice months, maybe even years, after I was married. It took me a long time to break free, and I *still* have a lot of anxiety and trouble making decisions and choices, and here I am with a kid of my own approaching middle age.

So it's not just patriarchy, although I would say that patriarchy codifies and has even tried to perfect this sort of dysfunction.

[refugee]

On 1/27/2016 at 2:25 PM, Sundaymorning said:

I'm not so sure about that. We only really see a small glimpse into the life of a few families who choose to portray themselves on the internet. And who, no matter what they claim, will certainly not tell the whole truth of what is going on behind closed doors. For example, you can only read between the lines that Teri's depression was probably way worse than they let on, and I truly pity her children who had to grow up not only with Stevehova as a father, but with a mother who had an untreated, serious illness. 

And I really don't want to know what goes on in many patriarchal homes where the wife doesn't have a blog or tv show. I know she is not liked here on free jinger, but I think Vyckie Garrison gave some good insights of what life must be like for so many quiverfull women.

You just made me think of the Gentle Spirit publisher, Cheryl-something. Gah, how I wanted to be like her when I grew up! (lame joke -- i was chronologically adult, and raising a family of my own when I subscribed to GS magazine)

I mean, she had it all! Moved to the land, lived (is that what you mean by crunchy?) a rural, idyllic-sounding lifestyle (growing food, canning, perfecting the art of once-a-month cooking, doing crafts, sewing, etc.) -- pictures of girls (in dresses) skipping through fields of wildflowers, long hair (with head covering, if I remember right) blowing in the wind, cute animals, herbal medicine. Kind of a hippie christian blend. And then she wrote, and published her own magazine, which turned into enough of a family business that her husband could quit his job.

And then reality entered the picture. Mental, physical and spiritual abuse. Oppressive church that ordered her to submit to her husband. The whole scandal with the likes of the publishers of Teaching Home stealing her subscriber list (IIRC) and piling on her together with Gregg Harris (!) and other leaders in the "christian homeschooling" movement to try to discipline her and bring her back in line after she left her abusive husband for what sounded like a kinder, gentler man she met on the internet. (I have no idea, really -- the majority of women I've known who escaped abusive marriages seemed to be magnets for abusive men, and married a second time a guy who seemed like a prince and turned into a frog sometime later. I don't know about Cheryl. I hope her second husband was a keeper.)

She sounded happy, in the last interview I read about her. But that was years ago.

Sorry to derail the thread. I wonder, now, where her abusive ex ended up, and how functional her sons are -- they must be adults by now. I think her daughters were young, when the breakup happened. If she got custody, they may be ok -- we left patriarchy late in the game, when our kids were teens, but they are somehow finding their way and working at achieving college success, somehow, even without a college fund, and concerned about the gaps in their education. I'm weak in math and science (at least I didn't sweep evolution under the rug, though I believed Ken Ham's guff sounded plausible, for a long time... but then, as I just said, I'm weak in science), and our educational materials for history were pretty slanted -- they're playing catch-up.

We don't have sons, but I'm sure they'd be messed up, too, if we did, triggered by certain things, and affected by the attitudes of the church we grew up in. Maybe even acting out in wild and crazy ways, and fighting serious anger issues, like the boys we know who've left that church. Patriarchy is a poisonous system, and it leaves deep scars.

[Cleopatra7]

5 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

My opinion is that patriarchy FEARS women. They are afraid of women stealing all of the jobs from men. I think the large majority of patriarchial families are crunchy and have their wives homebirth because what would they do if they go to the hospital and are being treated by an intelligent Muslim female doctor? They'd have a cardiac arrest, but hey, at least they'd be in the right place at the right time to have one! It's being reported that more than half of women are going to medical school to become doctors so it's on the way of being like nursing and becoming mostly a women dominated field. In fact, it's also being reported that more women than men enter college right now. Patriarchy has to keep women down and belittle the abilities of women to feel better about themselves.

I think the homebirth obsession with fundies has less to do with their objections to female doctors (which they have no problem using when necessary, even if they think such women are godless heathens) and more to do with a desire to refute the idea that childbirth is dangerous. One reason why women have traditionally sought to limit their family size is because childbirth and pregnancy is incredibly dangerous, and not something many women wanted to do any more than necessary. Even as recently as 100 years ago, 1/3 of all pregnancies ended in maternal death. Just think about all the women of childbearing age you know and imagine 1/3 of them being dead. Plus, reductions in infant and child mortality meant that it was possible to only have one or two children and expect both to reach adulthood. This may sound morbid, but until recently, dead children were more common than living children, since the vast majority of them died from illnesses that are now preventable with vaccines and improved sanitation. The decline of the agrarian economy also meant that large families were difficult and more expensive to maintain, especially with more children going to school, rather than working. Even in 2016, 800 women and girls die everyday from complications due to pregnancy and childbirth, and maternal deaths in the US are rising (we also have the highest rate of maternal death in the developed world).

In comparison, modern quiverfullers and those of a similar mindset believe in ignoring all the dangers of pregnancy and childbirth. For them, pregnancy is what a woman's body is built for, and is no more dangerous than riding in a car (that was an analogy I got from "orthodox" Catholics when I tried to explain how dangerous pregnancy can be). In fact, pregnancy is so natural and wonderful, that it can even be done at home, with no midwives or other medical professionals. The quiverfull obsession with homebirth is basically a big FU to those of us who are concerned with the health effects of repeated pregnancies.

[refugee]

On 1/27/2016 at 3:12 PM, Othello said:

In my experience, as a young man who was raised in an insular fundie environment, here are a handful of ways that it damages men.

- While a brand of machismo is preached, most typical aspects of maleness are stifled in practice. Girls often thrive better in the confines of homeschool culture because typically feminine studies are permitted or encouraged, while the boys have little outlet for activity and self-expression. Sports, etc. are discouraged. You're all expected to fit in the rank and file in the homeschool family, leaving little room for developing masculine interests or expression; boys are almost expected to be genderless.

(snip)

Have to get back to work and hit a deadline but these are a few thoughts and experiences I've had growing up as a guy in a fundie environment. The christian patriarchy doesn't benefit the men trapped within it, solely the leaders who hold sway by guilting their followers into crushing expectations and submission. It's an oligarchy, not a boys' club.

 

OOOoooooooo. One of my buttons just got pushed.Yes, "typically feminine studies are permitted or encouraged" but that doesn't mean girls thrive better. It only means that girls who are drawn to that sort of thing thrive better.

Our ex-church used the "christian" alternative to scouting programs -- Keepers at Home, and Contenders for the Faith. I remember our girls envying the boys because they were always doing "cool stuff" like computers, and woodworking, and hiking, and hunting, and knifework (whittling), and that, while the girls were relegated to "stupid stuff" like crochet and needlework. We found it insipid and stifling. Though female, "typically feminine studies" have *never* been my strong suit. I've always struggled with homemaking.

Did you ever look at a Vision Forum catalog, and see how the boys had cool and interesting toys, and the girls' stuff was so dumb, it was insulting? (Apologies to the "girls" (and boys) who really enjoy tea parties, and dressing dolls in various outfits.)

Frankly, I find troubleshooting a car repair or doing computer repair or programming to be much more intriguing than keeping a clean house and sewing (ugh! hate sewing) and having tea parties and taking care of children.

Sorry, I know this is a discussion of patriarchy and males, but I just needed to say that.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. You're right, sports and military service are discouraged for boys, for the most part. (Huh. What about all the stuff Paul wrote, about soldiers and athletes?) I'm closer to the effects on girls (no sports for them, either, and especially no possibility of military careers), but I did see some promising boys who ended up drifting after their dreams were shattered by the pronouncement of their elders. So sad.

On 1/29/2016 at 10:31 AM, CTRLZero said:

Great post.  I wrote about my neighbors above where the patriarch's wife took a stance resulting in limiting her family size to eight children.  Most of their children are now adult or close to it.  I ran into the patriarch a couple of years ago, and he expressed dismay that his oldest married son had only had one child in three (now five) years of marriage.  Guess there is some sort of family planning going on in the second generation.  It's interesting following these families unto the second and third generations, that's for sure.

There goes the 200 year plan. They're not gonna outbreed the heathen, at that rate.

/sarcasm

(Remembering that chart someone published, y'know, if you and your believing spouse have 10 children, and each of your children marries a godly spouse and has 10 children, and the grandchildren each have 10 children... Doesn't seem to be likely to work out in real life.)

On 1/30/2016 at 0:24 PM, onlyme said:

Patriarchy ruined my marriage and has been very destructive to my husband, for a lot of the reasons people have already mentioned. I just wanted to add that I think another part of it is that it's easier for women to see the damage, find articulation because there's articles and blogs you can turn to, and be able to find healing. But the abuse toward the men is harder to spot. The language makes it seem like they are being exalted. But really, they are under tremendous pressure, and are practically forced into an abusive position by the doctrine. There's like this competition over whose "protecting" their daughters the most, whose "respected" the most, etc. Also, the husband is constantly told he is responsible BEFORE GOD for what happens in his family. So, like, when I left the church, in a way it is seen as my damaging his relationship with God. He couldn't make me go back, yet he's responsible. And if the wife helps at all with financial support it's seen as a failure. My husband has left the church we were in, but he still can't see how all this has damaged his relationships with his family. But at least he's not under all the peer pressure, so he's much more relaxed. 

I would like to see more work done on this in professional fields. 

I'm in the same boat. My husband still can't really grasp how it all went so terribly wrong.

[Othello]

2 hours ago, refugee said:

OOOoooooooo. One of my buttons just got pushed.Yes, "typically feminine studies are permitted or encouraged" but that doesn't mean girls thrive better. It only means that girls who are drawn to that sort of thing thrive better.

Our ex-church used the "christian" alternative to scouting programs -- Keepers at Home, and Contenders for the Faith. I remember our girls envying the boys because they were always doing "cool stuff" like computers, and woodworking, and hiking, and hunting, and knifework (whittling), and that, while the girls were relegated to "stupid stuff" like crochet and needlework. We found it insipid and stifling. Though female, "typically feminine studies" have *never* been my strong suit. I've always struggled with homemaking.

Did you ever look at a Vision Forum catalog, and see how the boys had cool and interesting toys, and the girls' stuff was so dumb, it was insulting? (Apologies to the "girls" (and boys) who really enjoy tea parties, and dressing dolls in various outfits.)

Frankly, I find troubleshooting a car repair or doing computer repair or programming to be much more intriguing than keeping a clean house and sewing (ugh! hate sewing) and having tea parties and taking care of children.

Sorry, I know this is a discussion of patriarchy and males, but I just needed to say that.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. You're right, sports and military service are discouraged for boys, for the most part. (Huh. What about all the stuff Paul wrote, about soldiers and athletes?) I'm closer to the effects on girls (no sports for them, either, and especially no possibility of military careers), but I did see some promising boys who ended up drifting after their dreams were shattered by the pronouncement of their elders. So sad.

You're absolutely right, hence the all-important "often" in the quoted sentence! Also note the qualifiers "typically feminine studies" and "thrive better", as nobody truly thrives; just in comparison. In the families in our circles growing up, the boys would often struggle because they were taught to admire a type of masculinity or maturity they weren't allowed to pursue, and feeling stifled, they neglected the (often considered feminine) studies of music, writing, creative endeavors. On the other hand, girls would often develop their intellect and abilities far better, because they were taught to chase a femininity that was within reach, leading to a stark disparity between the sexes and their achievements. I did well in this area because I'm a fairly creative type, and enjoyed music and academics, but I noticed this pattern established early on in comparison with my (admittedly limited circle of) peers. We were limited to in-home studies and thus the disparity in scout activities didn't come up haha.

Of course anyone who goes against the stereotypical gender expectations suffers even more; I touched on this experience as a boy who showed a preference for the intellect and creative over wearing a knife on my belt and using the patented DPIAT WideStance™ in my post, and this comes up quite often amongst girls who don't fit the stereotype of frilly femininity, as you mention. Definitely not saying that the above is a rule, just that it's a common pattern I've observed both growing up and in retrospect!

[THERetroGamerNY]

5 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

In comparison, modern quiverfullers and those of a similar mindset believe in ignoring all the dangers of pregnancy and childbirth. For them, pregnancy is what a woman's body is built for, and is no more dangerous than riding in a car (that was an analogy I got from "orthodox" Catholics when I tried to explain how dangerous pregnancy can be). In fact, pregnancy is so natural and wonderful, that it can even be done at home, with no midwives or other medical professionals. The quiverfull obsession with homebirth is basically a big FU to those of us who are concerned with the health effects of repeated pregnancies.

This kinda makes me ill to even repeat, but... It also is a "great way to save a lot of money".

Yeah... I've heard that as an actual reason from more than one source.

[onlyme]

7 hours ago, refugee said:

You just made me think of the Gentle Spirit publisher, Cheryl-something. Gah, how I wanted to be like her when I grew up! (lame joke -- i was chronologically adult, and raising a family of my own when I subscribed to GS magazine)

I mean, she had it all! Moved to the land, lived (is that what you mean by crunchy?) a rural, idyllic-sounding lifestyle (growing food, canning, perfecting the art of once-a-month cooking, doing crafts, sewing, etc.) -- pictures of girls (in dresses) skipping through fields of wildflowers, long hair (with head covering, if I remember right) blowing in the wind, cute animals, herbal medicine. Kind of a hippie christian blend. And then she wrote, and published her own magazine, which turned into enough of a family business that her husband could quit his job.

And then reality entered the picture. Mental, physical and spiritual abuse. Oppressive church that ordered her to submit to her husband. The whole scandal with the likes of the publishers of Teaching Home stealing her subscriber list (IIRC) and piling on her together with Gregg Harris (!) and other leaders in the "christian homeschooling" movement to try to discipline her and bring her back in line after she left her abusive husband for what sounded like a kinder, gentler man she met on the internet. (I have no idea, really -- the majority of women I've known who escaped abusive marriages seemed to be magnets for abusive men, and married a second time a guy who seemed like a prince and turned into a frog sometime later. I don't know about Cheryl. I hope her second husband was a keeper.)

She sounded happy, in the last interview I read about her. But that was years ago.

 

Cheryl Seelhoff! Well I remember looking at the GS magazines and dreaming of the day when I'd have lots of little ones roaming around our country home picking up little chickens and gardening and such. Oh! I had such dreams. Well, she was really good at photography and making it all look so sweet. 

She is a feminist now, and goes by Heart. Or HeartSees. I don't think her second marriage survived. She seems a little batty. Ran for pres. in 2008. 

[PraiseDog]

7 hours ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

This kinda makes me ill to even repeat, but... It also is a "great way to save a lot of money".

Yeah... I've heard that as an actual reason from more than one source.

It strikes me as an unsustainable way of life, even within their unique frame of logic, that these families fully espouse the pre-industrial version of traditional roles for women, but at the same time men are discouraged from sports, the military, etc.  Back in the days when 1/3 of women died in childbirth, about the same proportion of men died from wars, farming accidents, exposure while out hunting, etc.  So if they were to achieve their dream of every family in America becoming fundy, in one generation we'd end up like China, where young men can't find wives because there's 5 unmarried men for every woman.  

[MamaJunebug]

Oh yeah, Cheryl Seelhoff!

Found this about her. Interesting if not always easy to follow:

http://bintalshamsa.blogspot.com/2007/08/evidently-cheryl-seelhoff-lieks-moar.html?m=1