Negative effects of the patriarchy on males

[Runningfromreality]

I actually asked my fiance about this , and though he generally hates discussing "those crazy people" he had some interesting insights. Mostly it just makes him mad because most of the QF type of people would think the family we are planning is just plain wrong. The main problem would just be that he's planning on staying home once we have kids while I work, mostly because I have a higher degree, more job prospects, and really want to work. But QF makes that choice not just different, but ungodly. Even making those kinds of choices for our family would be frowned upon. And ultimately, we would both be extremely unhappy. I would rather work everyday and he would rather take care of our family full time. So not only would I be unhappy being constantly pregnant and overwhelmed, but he would also be unhappy having the stress of supporting it all. I have a relative who is drifting into fundiedom, and his judgment about simple things like this is really what bothers me the most. Whether one or both spouses work has nothing to do with how good we are as people or parents, and if we make the decision for one spouse to stay home, the decision should not be made on the basis of genitalia. Making it solely about the woman staying home while the man goes to work can really hurt both spouses if it's the wrong arrangement for the family.

[salex]

Quote

Whether one or both spouses work has nothing to do with how good we are as people or parents, and if we make the decision for one spouse to stay home, the decision should not be made on the basis of genitalia. Making it solely about the woman staying home while the man goes to work can really hurt both spouses if it's the wrong arrangement for the family.

But remember the mantra, that made me pound my steering wheel the first time I heard it (which was also the first time I heard Voddie whats his name) 

It is better to be holy than happy..... 

Which I take to mean in patriarchy, fundie-ism and Lorken world means 

Misery Loves Company

[December]

Are there currently any examples of multi-generational fundie families that might provide some insight on the harm toward both genders? I'm talking where the grandkids are fully grown (not just young children). 

I agree with the great points others have already set out in the thread. While patriarchy certainly benefits men the most, it's harmful to people of both sexes. For the boys in fundie families, it seems like most of them are being set up to fail. And because of the whole kidult system, the serious economic woes won't likely come until they're already financially responsible for a wife and multiple children.

[TurtleBelly]

6 minutes ago, December said:

Are there currently any examples of multi-generational fundie families that might provide some insight on the harm toward both genders? I'm talking where the grandkids are fully grown (not just young children).

The "lost boys" of the FLDS faith come to mind. Of course, that faith believes in plural marriage, so there end up being too many unattached males. But the idea of "favored males" is relevant. The non-favored boys might get pushed out of the community. 

Anyone know about the parents of Geoff and Victoria Botkin? Were they/are they Fundy? I really wonder how all the young men in that family can make a living for their growing families. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

"Better to be holy than happy."

What utter bullshit.

[salsa]

4 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

"Better to be holy than happy."

What utter bullshit.

and it saddens me deeply

[THERetroGamerNY]

3 minutes ago, salsa said:

and it saddens me deeply

There is so much crap packed into that stupid phrase...

Can you even just imagine being locked into a QF marriage, your wife always pregnant, and like 8 kids running around... All you can see is debt, poverty, and empty grasps at promised joy. 

Neither one of you is happy... But you have some dumb aphorism like that basically saying that your misery is fine...

That just boggles my mind!

[Mrsaztx]

12 minutes ago, salsa said:

and it saddens me deeply

It makes you wonder about their God, doesn't it? What kind of being creates a whole universe and all these cool little creatures within it and then tells them "these are the rules, and you probably won't like the rules, they won't benefit you at all, but you have to follow them. If you're miserable all the time, well, that's how I want it." It makes no sense at all. Their God is a sad, petty, needy, teen-on-Instagram kind of God and I don't care to friend, follow, or like his account 

[THERetroGamerNY]

@Mrsaztx Yeah! It's like some sort of ultra-cynical religion...

[Dandruff]

IMO, a lot of the fundie guys we talk about seem to have a cultivated softness or blandness about them, and it can come across as effeminate.  In our world, a guy can make a decision to ask a girl for a date then take the chance and ask her.  There generally aren't months or years of discreetly watching her, praying for guidance, asking your parents for permission, asking her parents for permission, then finally picking up the phone.  And after that, chaperones.  How are these guys supposed to make quick, adult decisions when they're used to needing lots of time to think, multiple layers of permission, and people watching to make sure they don't make a mistake?

[THERetroGamerNY]

@Dandruff The many dark layers of QF kidulting are real... It must be confusing being 18 going on 30...

[Runningfromreality]

13 hours ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

"Better to be holy than happy."

What utter bullshit.

I agree so much. How are you glorifying your God if you're not making the absolute most out of the life he's given you? I guess it's the promise of eternal life that keeps them going, but the lack of logic still just baffles me. I have such a hard time getting into the fundie mindset (which is, I suppose, a good thing). 

[THERetroGamerNY]

2 minutes ago, Runningfromreality said:

I agree so much. How are you glorifying your God if you're not making the absolute most out of the life he's given you? I guess it's the promise of eternal life that keeps them going, but the lack of logic still just baffles me. I have such a hard time getting into the fundie mindset (which is, I suppose, a good thing). 

JOY --- Jesus first; Others second; Yourself last

You're allegedly glorifying God by doing as he has decreed - your own personal happiness in the matter is literally last place on the list.

[libriatrix]

10 hours ago, Dandruff said:

IMO, a lot of the fundie guys we talk about seem to have a cultivated softness or blandness about them, and it can come across as effeminate.  In our world, a guy can make a decision to ask a girl for a date then take the chance and ask her.  There generally aren't months or years of discreetly watching her, praying for guidance, asking your parents for permission, asking her parents for permission, then finally picking up the phone.  And after that, chaperones.  How are these guys supposed to make quick, adult decisions when they're used to needing lots of time to think, multiple layers of permission, and people watching to make sure they don't make a mistake?

Or to not even making the decisions themselves! My first relationship was broken off because the guy adored his deeply controlling, patriarchal father who treated him quite literally like a child, to the point that he believed he wasn't an adult till he got married, no matter when he got married. He wasn't supposed to make his own decisions until his wedding day, at which point he would somehow be magically adult and mature. This philosophy had already resulted in an arranged marriage for the guy's sister, and after he and I broke up, his dad married him off too. He was engaged within three months of the end of my "courtship" with him. I only hope his dad actually did stop making his decisions on his wedding day.... frankly I find it hard to believe that he would: I think the lure of power is too strong.

[Cleopatra7]

11 hours ago, Dandruff said:

IMO, a lot of the fundie guys we talk about seem to have a cultivated softness or blandness about them, and it can come across as effeminate.  In our world, a guy can make a decision to ask a girl for a date then take the chance and ask her.  There generally aren't months or years of discreetly watching her, praying for guidance, asking your parents for permission, asking her parents for permission, then finally picking up the phone.  And after that, chaperones.  How are these guys supposed to make quick, adult decisions when they're used to needing lots of time to think, multiple layers of permission, and people watching to make sure they don't make a mistake?

Part of the problem is that the only way men in the quivering world have for showing their virility is by siring a litter of kids. Many of them aren't allowed to play sports or join traditionally masculine professions like the military or the police force, so that only leaves having a quiver. Indeed, almost all of men and boys I've seen in ATI look pasty and unattractive, probably from a mix of bad diet, lack of exercise, and lack of personality. 

Quivering materials tend to focus on how contraception makes women "selfish" but doesn't mention how few men want large families either these days (I mean responsible men, not the deadbeat dad types who cut and run). They act like it's women depriving men of the fruit of their loins, when it's men and women together deciding that smaller families are better.

[RosyDaisy]

A lot of fundies I know believe that once a man is married he becomes the patriarch of his own family. The man is also taught and expected to already have a job and able to suppot a family. However, they are not quiverful and don't do the courtship thing.

[Sundaymorning]

This fundie-idea that on his wedding day, a boy, who, up until then, was treated like a kindergartener his whole life, magically becomes a man who is able to make sound decisions and lovingly lead and provide for a family, is about as clever as calling a simple airplane passenger into the cockpit mid-flight and demand of him that he should take the place of the pilot and navigate the plane safely. Good luck with that.

I think patriarchy suits some men and rarely some women in certain situations. Everyone else suffers, women more so than men.

[foreign fundie]

15 hours ago, Runningfromreality said:

I actually asked my fiance about this , and though he generally hates discussing "those crazy people" he had some interesting insights. Mostly it just makes him mad because most of the QF type of people would think the family we are planning is just plain wrong. The main problem would just be that he's planning on staying home once we have kids while I work, mostly because I have a higher degree, more job prospects, and really want to work. But QF makes that choice not just different, but ungodly. Even making those kinds of choices for our family would be frowned upon. And ultimately, we would both be extremely unhappy. I would rather work everyday and he would rather take care of our family full time. So not only would I be unhappy being constantly pregnant and overwhelmed, but he would also be unhappy having the stress of supporting it all. I have a relative who is drifting into fundiedom, and his judgment about simple things like this is really what bothers me the most. Whether one or both spouses work has nothing to do with how good we are as people or parents, and if we make the decision for one spouse to stay home, the decision should not be made on the basis of genitalia. Making it solely about the woman staying hnome while the man goes to work can really hurt both spouses if it's the wrong arrangement for the family.

As a wife and mum, I have usually been the main breadwinner too. This was a mutual decision, because in the places and circumstances we were in it was the most logical option by far. Sticking to traditional roles would have meant unstability and unhapiness for both of us as well as financial difficulty. We were involved in a fundie light group and the leader was opposed to this arrangement to the point that we decided to leave the group. He made a point of discouraging women from having any position of influence, even voluntary.  He felt so threatened by women who could (and did) think. 

There I learned how lucky I was to have a husband who was proud of me and was ready to sacrifice so I could study more. It has benefited our family in many ways. He is a true headship although he would never let me call him that 

[elliha]

3 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Part of the problem is that the only way men in the quivering world have for showing their virility is by siring a litter of kids. Many of them aren't allowed to play sports or join traditionally masculine professions like the military or the police force, so that only leaves having a quiver. Indeed, almost all of men and boys I've seen in ATI look pasty and unattractive, probably from a mix of bad diet, lack of exercise, and lack of personality. 

Quivering materials tend to focus on how contraception makes women "selfish" but doesn't mention how few men want large families either these days (I mean responsible men, not the deadbeat dad types who cut and run). They act like it's women depriving men of the fruit of their loins, when it's men and women together deciding that smaller families are better.

I definitely think that I would be more supportive of a full quiver than my husband. I would be OK with 4-7 kids while he thinks 2 is perfect and maybe maybe 3 could be acceptable. Don't get me wrong, I don't want 10+ kids but I would be less against that him.

 

1 hour ago, Sundaymorning said:

 

I think patriarchy suits some men and rarely some women in certain situations. Everyone else suffers, women more so than men.

I think it suits more women than you can think at first glance. A woman who wants plenty of kids, wants to be sure to be able to be a SAHM no matter what and who has a nice and friendly husband is not going to mind "submitting" to him, she would know he wouldn't use his power to hurt her. However, I do agree with the latter part, a woman being illtreated by this movement is much worse off than a man.

[Evangeline]

It's interesting that women are so often blamed for wanting to limit family size. In my experience it's usually the woman pushing for more kids and the man resisting. I know a woman with a bunch of kids who guilted her husband into the last two. She told him he was selfish for wanting to quit because homemaking and taking care of babies is her thing and he shouldn't deprive her of that. Funny, she talks a good game about wifely submission, but it's obvious she's only submissive when it suits her.

[Sundaymorning]

55 minutes ago, elliha said:

I think it suits more women than you can think at first glance. A woman who wants plenty of kids, wants to be sure to be able to be a SAHM no matter what and who has a nice and friendly husband is not going to mind "submitting" to him, she would know he wouldn't use his power to hurt her. However, I do agree with the latter part, a woman being illtreated by this movement is much worse off than a man.

While I do agree that there are some women who truly want this at first, I don't think it "suits" them in a way that they are able to live a life of decent quality. While they might not have any problems submitting to a kind and loving husband, fundie life will take its toll regardless, unless there are some circumstances in their favour such as not being too fertile and having a lot of money.

Having 10+ kids while having to homeschool them will damage about any women's physical and mental health. Throw in the financial problems most families with so many kids and only one income face and the usually heavy outside pressure from fellow cult members, and it is a wonder if a woman doesn't go off the deep end.

Most of the fundie women we discuss here seem to have mental or physical health issues. J'Chelle had a nervous break-down when she had "only" about 6-7 kids and then simply checked and let the J'Slaves raise her children. ZsuZsu seems to be tired and worn out all the time. Teri suffered from depressions (which of course can happen to anyone, but living in a patriarchal system makes dealing with such an illness a lot worse). And the list goes on.

Yes, there might be some women who truly thrive in patriarchy, but most of them suffer, whether they want to admit it (even to themselves) or not.

[Anonymousguest]

I think men who are suited to patriarchy, those who want to rule over their own domain, are attracted to it. Has it even been around long enough for there to be anyones multigenerational vision carried out? (I mean specifically as the movement had been presented by Doug Phillips et. alI, obviously is been sons as a family and political structure since biblical times, it hasn't be prominent in main stream Christianity) I have been on the fringes of this movement, through homeschooling and a family integrated church, for anout 17yrs and very rarely are these guys even second generation Christians, much less patriarchs. Some might be from main stream protestant churches they consider"Luke warm". 

There are starting to be some second generation homeschoolers and patriarchs, but what I am seeing generally is people relax in their views and rules greatly by the time their kids are in high school and beyond. Most second generation while maybe not exactly liberal are far less legalistic. I can think of dozens of families I knew 10 yrs ago who are very much different now. Families that wore dresses only, didn't allow media, had 7+ kids and homeschool ed, now have married children who Dr's fashionably, put their kids in Christian school, or homeschool but much more secularlIy. I believe this is the main reason in the decline in the Maxwell's business. People have raised their kids and have found they  didn't keep their hearts by isolating them and following a bunch of rules. 

I think those sons who are natural leaders and more authoritarian in nature might stay in, but those not suited are going to leave. As someone said already, patriarchy inherently benefits the males, and when it doesn't, they will do something else. 

[libriatrix]

 

15 minutes ago, Anonymousguest said:

There are starting to be some second generation homeschoolers and patriarchs, but what I am seeing generally is people relax in their views and rules greatly by the time their kids are in high school and beyond. Most second generation while maybe not exactly liberal are far less legalistic. I can think of dozens of families I knew 10 yrs ago who are very much different now. Families that wore dresses only, didn't allow media, had 7+ kids and homeschool ed, now have married children who Dr's fashionably, put their kids in Christian school, or homeschool but much more secularlIy. I believe this is the main reason in the decline in the Maxwell's business. People have raised their kids and have found they  didn't keep their hearts by isolating them and following a bunch of rules.  

This has definitely been my experience. Lots and lots of families loosening up significantly; my own family among them.

I do know a decent amount of young 2nd-gen fundie couples; i.e. grew up fundie and are now in their twenties with a baby or two or three and still seem pretty strict. But I can't think of any 2nd-gen families I know with kids older than 12.

[CTRLZero]

1 hour ago, Sundaymorning said:

Yes, there might be some women who truly thrive in patriarchy, but most of them suffer, whether they want to admit it (even to themselves) or not.

My former neighbors started out fundie-lite and turned more extreme as the years rolled by.  By child five, my neighbor was in a frumper and had grown her hair long.  The patriarch once lined up the kids and his wife and scolded them in order, as if she was one of the kids to be disciplined.  I shudder to think what happened behind closed doors if that's how he treated her in public.  She did snap one day and told me that "if she was going to keep having all these babies, he would have to let her cut her hair' [as it was too time consuming to keep it tidy].  Permission for things such as getting a haircut was a novel concept to me at the time.  Soon after that blow up, they moved (yay!), but I saw her a few years ago.  Happy, short-haired, jeans, and family size limited to only eight children!  She seemed to thrive until she reached a certain point, and I am glad she took a stance and was able to make modifications before she lost her well-being.  Her kids (homeschooled until high school) are also turning out well.  No patriarchs in the next generation, as far as I can tell.

[nolongerIFBx]

On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 8:46 PM, salsa said:

It's all those sermons about how "women are this way" and "men are that way." If you hear it enough, you'll end up trying to mold yourself into either "this way" or "that way," accordingly. The reality is that those lines are not so distinct, and that's sad for the (I dare say) majority who don't fit into the sermon model.

Of course those sermons sound scientific and all, but they're not; they just read into the Bible what they think is true and then expect everyone to conform.

eta: where is it written in Scripture, for example, that men are turned on by the visual? pure conjecture based on some reading-into some biblical stories

I am extremely careful not to say anything against how my fundie older sibling and spouse are raising their children in front of their children (because I want to preserve the relationship in case one of my niblings ever needs my help), but one of my niblings flat out asked me what I thought about what "people" (preachers!) said about men and women being so different. Having some college education on the subject, I said that some scientists do think that men and women are different, but that I tended to agree with the ones who concluded that if all the men were in a circle and all the women were in a circle, there would be a great deal of overlap. There are men who are more emotional and women--like myself--who tend to be more logical. Since I felt that he was hinting around because he is at that age where girls stop being yuck and become more interesting (which is later for fundie teens!), I said that it was really more important to find someone who has a personality that you get along with and has similar values and goals rather than just saying, "Men will never understand women; they are just too different" and not even trying to see the other person's point of view.

I don't know if any of it sunk in and will stick, but I'm glad he's asking. I tried googling to see if I could find a very basic article backed up by science, but all I found were stuff showing how different men and women's brains were which didn't really help my case!