Happy Birthday Sarah Maxwell!

[Handmaiden of Dog]

I shudder to think what sort of bridegroom Sarah would be offered, probably some 64 year old widower with failing health and his own house.  I can't imagine there are any over 35 year old fundie men who haven't been married before and who don't have some severe health or financial issues.  Best case scenario:  someone who only recently converted to the sort of born again, fervent, fundamental Baptist strain of religion that would be approved by Stevehovah who has a good paying job and a kind disposition.  Worst case scenario:  Steve-like widower with lots of children and no money who just wants a workhorse and brood mare and believes in disciplining everyone under his control.

[Jana814]

The only person that Sarah Maxwell would end of with is someone discribed above. I hope she ends up with someone. I'm just not sure if that will happen. It will be very hard to find a man that holds to Steve's standards. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, Handmaiden of Dog said:

I shudder to think what sort of bridegroom Sarah would be offered, probably some 64 year old widower with failing health and his own house.  I can't imagine there are any over 35 year old fundie men who haven't been married before and who don't have some severe health or financial issues.  Best case scenario:  someone who only recently converted to the sort of born again, fervent, fundamental Baptist strain of religion that would be approved by Stevehovah who has a good paying job and a kind disposition.  Worst case scenario:  Steve-like widower with lots of children and no money who just wants a workhorse and brood mare and believes in disciplining everyone under his control.

I must hear the hoofbeats of the 4 horsemen because I'm about to defend Steve here..

He's a control freak so anyone he'd allow in would be more malleable than him - he's not going to allow his daughter to be subjected to someone else's draconian rules.  

I sure as hell don't think he could live with some fundy his age fellowshipping with her, besides the age difference would mean she'd likely end up a widowed mom with minor kids her brothers would have to support.

And no way would he let her go to someone who would have her living in poverty or even extreme financial straights.  The Maxwells are many, many things one of which is absolutely solidly middle class.  That's by no means a shot, I consider myself the same, but as a group we tend to be far more afraid of financial insecurity than either the very wealthy (understandable) and surprisingly lower income people who have always struggled financially.

There have actually been studies on this.  And I'm by no means minimizing the hardships that people who are low income and those living in poverty face on a daily basis - their stress is very real and has lifelong health effects among other things - but there was research done a few years back looking at the steep increase in suicides among middle class/middle aged people (both sexes) due to the housing market collapse and economic downturn.  The data came back showing people who were solidly in the middle had far less ability to cope with major economic problems than those who had experience struggling financially...it's the loss of hope.  It's not knowing how to get through it and not knowing if you can.  It's really not about losing the nice car or downsizing the house (although not saying that doesn't bother people) it's the panic of having no idea what to do on a practical level and internalized shame.  

I'm not saying Steve would insist any Prince Charming for the girls be able to buy them a private island (although - if he could isolate everyone like that...) but marrying her off to someone where there was a chance she or the kids could have to wait for new shoes when needed, uncertainty about enough food, or tenuous housing...most guys like Steve wouldn't be able to sleep nights because they aren't going to let them go without and they certainly don't want to be supporting a whole other family at this stage in their life when they need to conserve their own money.

I know how much my dad loved me, but it bothered me when I was getting married that he was so much more concerned about my now-ex's ability to support me and his family's financial situation than whether or not I was happy or if we were suited.  My mom explained that his focus on all of us marrying men who could take care of us financially (in what he considered an acceptable manner) WAS how he tried to make sure we'd be happy...because to him none of the rest of it mattered if you were miserable due to lack of money.  And he didn't understand the emotional stuff - this he could vet.

Steve is a raving meglomaniac and all kinds of controlling batshit - but somewhere deep down he's a middle-class engineer who would not be able to stand his daughter wanting for basic needs.  (Besides the basic needs for autonomy and independence, but he doesn't recognize those.)

Just my gut feeling based on my read.  If he marries her off to Betty White's older cousin and they leave to go join the Nauglers homestead while Sarah has eleventy kids in an already cramped tool shed I'll admit that I'm wrong.  But I have a feeling old Steve is a toilet elitist.  

 

[nausicaa]

There are several awkward, Arndt-like unmarried fundie men in their late thirties/early forties. I'm not saying they're George Clooney. But I do think some of them are decent: goofy, hard-working, and generally kind. 

Heck my super Mormon friend found and married a never-married 40 year old handsome (and nice) Mormon doctor in southern Utah when she was 31. Hope springs eternal. And Sarah does bring something to the table. She is kind, devout, fit, pretty, loves kids and seems good with them, and not a dummy (just wrapped in cotton wool).

I really think it's Steve just fucking everything up. As usual. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, nausicaa25 said:

There are several awkward, Arndt-like unmarried fundie men in their late thirties/early forties. I'm not saying they're George Clooney. But I do think some of them are decent: fun, hard-working, and generally kind. Heck my super Mormon friend found and married a never-married forty year old handsome and nice Mormon doctor in southern Utah. Hope springs eternal. And Sarah does bring something to the table. She is kind, devout, fit, pretty, loves kids and seems good with them, and not a dummy (just wrapped in cotton wool).

I really think it's Steve just fucking everything up. As usual. 

Sarah brings a lot to the table.  We may snark here, but i am not good at writing children's books either and over my life two men married me anyway.   

I do think the issue is similar to the Arndts in that the Maxwellian brand of fundy is one of a kind.  If your VF or ATI you have a network of other families whose beliefs are within the same dysfunctional architecture.  But when your belief system is so specific it doesn't exist in it's true form anywhere outside your house you're going to have trouble finding people to make the cut.  

They'd have to be willing to come in and mold to the cult from scratch and to do that you either need to be weak with no beliefs of your own which would be a different problem for Steve.  

 

[socalrules]

Honestly, I would fear for Sarah and any man Steve found acceptable. He is going to look for a harsh man like himself, not this wonderful guy to give her a life we find fantastic. We always want fundy women to find men that will take them away from all the craziness. The reality is that they only come in contact with, and will only court/marry, men who firmly believe in their brand of crazy. What decent, awesome guy is going to be in the position to court and marry Sarah, and take her away to a normal life? He would have to be deeply ingrained in the crazy to even get a chance to know she exists. It's the same for all fundies. They aren't going to meet a regular joe blow on the street who will change their life for the better. Jill got the closest and Derrick turned out to want to get more fundy.

[mango_fandango]

@HerNameIsBuffy That's very true. This, I think, is why the guys are getting married off first. In fundie land women are destined to be stay-at-home brood mates who must submit, so they kind of have to be more malleable. Any guy coming to MaxHell would likely have to adhere to Stevehovah's rules, but as he is the headship he could also up and leave. I dunno if this is weird or not, but I think the married Maxwell guys are more answerable to Steve than a married Maxwell girl would be.  Maybe that's why Steve's more loath to let his daughters marry.

[nokidsmom]

24 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

@HerNameIsBuffy That's very true. This, I think, is why the guys are getting married off first. In fundie land women are destined to be stay-at-home brood mates who must submit, so they kind of have to be more malleable. Any guy coming to MaxHell would likely have to adhere to Stevehovah's rules, but as he is the headship he could also up and leave. I dunno if this is weird or not, but I think the married Maxwell guys are more answerable to Steve than a married Maxwell girl would be.  Maybe that's why Steve's more loath to let his daughters marry.

To the bolded: this is exactly why I think no daughters have married, I firmly stand by this.   Someone like Steveovah who is an off the charts control freak is going to make darn sure that whoever his daughters marry, the guy will completely agree to be under Steve, never mind the concepts of headship, transfer of authority etc.  As in moving near the compound, be self employed and ready for whatever Steve expects the family to do: conferences, trips to CO, fasts, etc.   It's far easier to get this from his sons, whose wives have to leave and cleave to the family cult.  It's an entirely different matter to get a prospective son in law, who is an outsider to the Maxwell way of things, on board with this.  

Steve will not abide losing control over any of his children.   When a family is so enmeshed that having a son get married and move down the street is a cause for grief and mourning, something is really, really wrong.  

ETA: As much as I would like to see Sarah leave, get married and have the family she so obviously wants, I think it impossible that there will ever be a man who will measure up to Steve's standards.   I suspect there have been suitors who have been run off.    Now it's possible that Steve realizes that he cannot afford to keep a bunch of adult children at home indefinitely.  Perhaps he is wondering why no one has been man enough to marry his daughters (hint: look in the mirror). But at the same time, when someone comes around asking to court a daughter, he struggles mightily between the practical considerations, the concern over having unmarried daughters, and losing control of them. 

[Eternalbluepearl]

Why does Steve care so much at this point? He's had 30 plus years with Sarah. Doesn't he want to see her "fly" so to speak? Not to mention he has 2 other daughters still at home besides Sarah. He'd hardly be alone if she got married and God forbid moved out of the neighborhood. And he has his actual wife. Maybe Steve needs a dog. It can be a girl dog with a big flower on her collar who will never ever leave. 

[silverspoons]

50 minutes ago, nausicaa25 said:

There are several awkward, Arndt-like unmarried fundie men in their late thirties/early forties. I'm not saying they're George Clooney. But I do think some of them are decent: goofy, hard-working, and generally kind. 

Heck my super Mormon friend found and married a never-married 40 year old handsome (and nice) Mormon doctor in southern Utah when she was 31. Hope springs eternal. And Sarah does bring something to the table. She is kind, devout, fit, pretty, loves kids and seems good with them, and not a dummy (just wrapped in cotton wool).

I really think it's Steve just fucking everything up. As usual. 

I dying to know who the doctor is since I thought I knew every doctor in southern Utah (my ex was a doctor and I was pharm rep.) . The area is growing and doctors are leaving not coming (my neighbor went to the ER with possible stroke last week and they used a neurologist via Skype to dx her from India since there are no hospital neurologists and the only ER dr was busy, crazy since the population is about the same as Hartford, CT ). A single doctor at 40, I assume he spent most of his time between 21-40 outside of Utah? They have crazy rules at the hospital to ensure no flirting with married doctors. You would be surprised how many nice LDS women were going after married doctors. My daughter had a friend over and the mom is a nurse and said she was running late because her car was being repaired. I asked her why she didn't get a ride with one of our neighbors who is a doctor and she said she was not allowed per her work contract to drive alone in a car with a doctor! I have to wonder what happened 12 years ago to make the change that two married co-workers and neighbors can't ride home 3 miles together once!

The good or bad thing about being LDS is almost everyone wants to help you get married. There are so many different singles wards now, dances, not to mention all the neighbors and friends trying to constantly set you up. Sarah doesn't have any of this. I guess the closest she gets is when they visit churches and she is setting up her Moody book table, maybe some local church going man helps her (would that even be allowed?). Now that the conferences are getting fewer and fewer her chances are getting slimmer.

 

[nokidsmom]

34 minutes ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

Why does Steve care so much at this point? He's had 30 plus years with Sarah. Doesn't he want to see her "fly" so to speak? Not to mention he has 2 other daughters still at home besides Sarah. He'd hardly be alone if she got married and God forbid moved out of the neighborhood. And he has his actual wife. Maybe Steve needs a dog. It can be a girl dog with a big flower on her collar who will never ever leave. 

OK, this made me LOL.

Seriously however, to your question about why Steve cares so much after all this time?  In spite of still having a wife and two daughters at home?  I will try to answer based on my own experience.   It's still a loss.  Of control.  Fear.  Of having such a firm view of what constitutes "the family", that anyone leaving is seen as rejecting the family on some level.   Down deep I think that Steve is a very needy parent.  He sees the family members as an extension of himself and a reflection of his self worth so that leaving the fold is a very scary thing.    They aren't around to follow him, worship him, validate him by doing things his way.  

One of the reasons why I call my own FOO "Maxwellian" was the reaction when I left home.  It was breaking up the family.  I was treated as if I was rejecting them, causing them pain and grief.   They were upset that I wasn't moving down the street where I could be under their watchful eye, making sure I did all they things they wanted me to do such as attend the same church, be there for Sunday dinner, etc. in short it was a variation of living under their roof.   And they expected Mr. No to willingly go along with this; he was considered suspect (read: not worthy, my Mom told me that he could "be a problem" two weeks before our wedding because he wouldn't go along and I agreed with him).  My mother took it especially hard, it affected her on a visceral level. My sisters were still in the home and my parents still had each other.  Yet it was this terrible thing.

Back to Maxwells, I hope this might shed some light, though I am no expert, it's just my family is eerily similar.   

 

[Eternalbluepearl]

Thanks @nokidsmom. That was very thoughtfully written. Kudos to you for finding your own strength. Going against family isn't easy. 

[nausicaa]

6 hours ago, silverspoons said:

I dying to know who the doctor is since I thought I knew every doctor in southern Utah (my ex was a doctor and I was pharm rep.) . The area is growing and doctors are leaving not coming (my neighbor went to the ER with possible stroke last week and they used a neurologist via Skype to dx her from India since there are no hospital neurologists and the only ER dr was busy, crazy since the population is about the same as Hartford, CT ). A single doctor at 40, I assume he spent most of his time between 21-40 outside of Utah? They have crazy rules at the hospital to ensure no flirting with married doctors. You would be surprised how many nice LDS women were going after married doctors. My daughter had a friend over and the mom is a nurse and said she was running late because her car was being repaired. I asked her why she didn't get a ride with one of our neighbors who is a doctor and she said she was not allowed per her work contract to drive alone in a car with a doctor! I have to wonder what happened 12 years ago to make the change that two married co-workers and neighbors can't ride home 3 miles together once!

The good or bad thing about being LDS is almost everyone wants to help you get married. There are so many different singles wards now, dances, not to mention all the neighbors and friends trying to constantly set you up. Sarah doesn't have any of this. I guess the closest she gets is when they visit churches and she is setting up her Moody book table, maybe some local church going man helps her (would that even be allowed?). Now that the conferences are getting fewer and fewer her chances are getting slimmer.

 

He went to medical school outside the state but I believe came back as soon as he graduated?

And completely agree with your second paragraph. At least Mormons make sense to me. Like the fundies they put marriage and having kids above all else, but beginning at age sixteen, the church has a really great structure in place to make sure young men and women meet each other. I'm a little jealous in a way. I don't understand how fundies aren't seeing how much their current system is failing (though I agree with you all that in Sarah's case, Steve doesn't necessarily want the outcome to change due to his control issues).

 

 

[Arete]

Agree there is something so incredibly vulnerable about Sarah.  She has none of the smugness you see in some of the Duggar and Bates girls, who absolutely bask in there supposed moral superiority.

i just remember her blog entries about Joseph's marriage.  It was like she was watching a child get married, not a brother.  Which is what in fact it was, considering so much of of the raising of the reversals fell on her due to Teri tuning out from depression.  She deserves something of her own.

[FloraKitty35]

I can't see Steve wanting  Sarah to be the Esther Shrader of Maxhell. 

[nokidsmom]

There's good points made here about Steve wanting Sarah to be in a stable financial situation when she marries.  Certainly he must know of situations, perhaps in their fundie circles as limited as it could be, where this is not the case.   He was an engineer, made a decent living and he would not want to see her (or her children) wanting for basic needs.  He may consider it his responsibility as a father to see to that which actually would put him above other fundie dads that we know of.   Unfortunately, his other requirements for a prospective son in law would put suitors who make a decent living out of the running.

Agree that Sarah doesn't have the smugness at all, on the contrary she seems very sensitive. 

[Toothfairy]

On Friday, January 22, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Eternalbluepearl said:

Why does Steve care so much at this point? He's had 30 plus years with Sarah. Doesn't he want to see her "fly" so to speak? Not to mention he has 2 other daughters still at home besides Sarah. He'd hardly be alone if she got married and God forbid moved out of the neighborhood. And he has his actual wife. Maybe Steve needs a dog. It can be a girl dog with a big flower on her collar who will never ever leave. 

It must give him satisfaction that he controls his daughters hymens. I guess losing control would mean losing power. Then the rest will follow.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

The other girls are still quite young. The guys didn't marry super young either.  I won't give up hope until I see Anna and Mary approaching their thirties. 

[salex]

I get the feeling that Steve does not work and play well with others, including other men, based on his inability to be part of a regular church. (not to mention a regular job) 

I think he believes that his sons must have a sexual outlet in their lives, and so manages to get wives for them.  I am unconvinced he thinks the same of his daughters interest/need for sex, and so the effort involved in playing nice with another family long enough to find a husband for them may not be worth the effort.  Add in that I think he believes that if he somehow misjudges and one of his daughters ends up with a spouse who allows a TV in the house or the kids to play soccer, his daughter could end up in Hell after she died.  

Much safer to keep the girls, who he may think don't really run as much risk of sexual sin as the boys from not marrying, at home, where he can guard their souls, and where they can help their mother and keep the household and book business going. He gets free labor and they are assured of heaven.... a win win.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

45 minutes ago, salex said:

I get the feeling that Steve does not work and play well with others, including other men, based on his inability to be part of a regular church. (not to mention a regular job) 

I think he believes that his sons must have a sexual outlet in their lives, and so manages to get wives for them.  I am unconvinced he thinks the same of his daughters interest/need for sex, and so the effort involved in playing nice with another family long enough to find a husband for them may not be worth the effort.  Add in that I think he believes that if he somehow misjudges and one of his daughters ends up with a spouse who allows a TV in the house or the kids to play soccer, his daughter could end up in Hell after she died.  

Much safer to keep the girls, who he may think don't really run as much risk of sexual sin as the boys from not marrying, at home, where he can guard their souls, and where they can help their mother and keep the household and book business going. He gets free labor and they are assured of heaven.... a win win.

 

I know this whole women are less sexual than men thing isn't limited to fundies, but in regards to them how to they reconcile the logic fail?

Per fundies our bodies are gifts from God - we're created in His image.  God doesn't make mistakes...yes, there are illnesses and injury etc, but the actual design of the human body is wholly from God per their belief system. 

So if women are less sexual and our interests in the area lie in catching a baby, relieving the headship, and cuddling then why did God give us the only organ in the human body with no function except for sexual pleasure?  

Plenty of erogenous zones of both sexes, but they all serve multiple functions...we got the only one where the only job is pleasure and orgasm.  

If we're supposed to use what God gave us in a general sense it would just seem ungrateful to ignore the gift of sexual pleasure...,and women shouldn't be ungrateful.

 

 

[Dandruff]

Doesn't Steve want more grandsons?  Even if they have a different last name?

[anjulibai]

8 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

Doesn't Steve want more grandsons?  Even if they have a different last name?

He only wants ones with the last name of Maxwell. 

[DrPusey]

How I would love to think that Sarah is on the cusp of grabbing some happiness for herself! But we've been down this road before, guys. Wasn't there a conference post in the recent past (I want to say right after Joseph's wedding, maybe) with Sarah posed prettily in front of a church and a scripture verse hinting at good things to come? And my heart leapt, and I thought Stevehovah was really hinting at something. And then the reply to somebody's comment on the blog indicated that la la la, it was just meant to convey the impression that good things always might be around the corner?  

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

He only wants ones with the last name of Maxwell. 

It's his plan to wipe Teri's mitochondrial DNA out...can't have future grand babies processing energy like Teri...at some point one might want a Pepsi.

Anyone else have the Suicidal Tendencies song Institutionalized  in their head when Teri's Pepsi deal comes up?  

Quote

Mom Steve, just give me a Pepsi, please
All I want is a Pepsi, and she he wouldn't give it to me
All I wanted was a Pepsi, just one Pepsi, and she he wouldn't give it to me.
Just a Pepsi.
 

 

[PsyD2013]

I hope if Sarah is courting, the man she is courting is one of her choice.  Wait, what am I thinking?  Steve is involved.