Artist's Bad Acts--Where Do You Draw the Line?

[GeoBQn]

Like most of the world, I've been thinking about David Bowie's life and accomplishments.  I enjoyed his music, and I felt like going back and listening to it.

Then one of my friends posted this article, about the conflicting urges to love David Bowie's ground-breaking artistry and hate the way he treated women in his past.  That was the first time I learned he had been accused of rape, and that he once had sex with a 14 year old.

http://aidamanduley.com/2016/01/12/david-bowie-time-to-mourn-or-call-out-2/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork

I have been a fan of classic rock since middle school--Led Zeppelin, Queen, The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, AC/DC, Aerosmith, etc.  I was a nerdy good girl and it helped me get in touch with my primal side.  Now I'm an adult, however, and I feel like I know too much.  I now know that these musicians were misogynistic assholes at best, rapists and abusers at worst.  I feel like I can't listen to the music I love because I am now aware of this, and how can I call myself a feminist if I continue listening to them?  At the same time, I feel guilty for being bothered over not being able to listen to this music.  (Someone diagram that sentence.)  I DO care about stoping violence against women, and I can't dismiss the whole thing by saying, "It's just music"  or "That was decades ago."

Sometimes I feel like there is no point in becoming attached to any art because something bad is bound to come out about the artist.  (This could really be applied to anything.  When Oscar Pistorius was arrested for killing his girlfriend, it felt like the lesson for the public was to never have a hero.)  And yet if we only consumed art made by nice, law-abiding people, there would be NO art.  Does anyone else struggle with this?

[HarryPotterFan]

I've been thinking about this kind of thing too.  And then you also have Jery Lee Lewis, who married his 23 year-old cousin. I also feel conflicted about enjoying the music of people who have committed awful acts, and knowing despite their awful acts they're still talented.

And then NFL players/professional athletes literally get away with murder and rape and continue to have careers. That really pisses me off and I think they should be locked up. But if I can't stand these athletes and their continued success after committing awful acts, shouldn't I apply that to artists as well? Ugh 

[Geechee Girl]

I've struggled with this as well. Upon learning info about Gary Glitter sexually abusing young girls, I immediately banned his music from I cheer squad & dance team. I won't watch Woody Allen & Mel Gibson films because I don't wish to participate -even passively- in supporting their ventures. 

I must admit there are times when I wish I could remain blissfully ignorant. An FJer here mentioned something about Alton Brown, and I wish I never read that post. I rather be Unsullied when it comes to people I like.   I'll be over hear with blinders on and fingers in my ears.

[HarryPotterFan]

Woody Allen gave me the heebiejeebies before I found out things about him, so I never liked him and he's just always creeped me out. It also bothers me that there are Mel Gibson movies on Netflix. He is such a terrible scumbag.

[Cleopatra7]

I don't know if there is an answer to this question. I'm a huge Richard Wagner fan, but he may be the only composer/musician to be accused of crimes of against humanity, and his music is unofficially banned in Israel:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Wagner.html

However, there is no such taboo against Carl Orff, the composer of "Carmina Burana," who was a card-carrying Nazi and lied about his support for the regime to de-Nazification forces:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/jan/02/classical-music-film-carmina-burana

This leads to the question of how can some artists be raked over the coals for their behavior, while others are not? The only real difference between Wagner and Orff is that the former was open about his various prejudices, while the latter was more of a chameleon. The fact that Wagner's wife Cosima turned Bayreuth into a hotbed of fin de siècle antisemitic nuttery and the fact Wagner's daughter in law Winifred Wagner was a personal friend of Hitler probably has more to do with Wagner's bad reputation that anything he actually did during his lifetime, but no sensible person would deny that Wagner was antisemitic. Is enjoying his work minimizing his influence on German antisemitic thought? Or can one enjoy the music and despise the man?

[GeoBQn]

I think celebrities tend to get a pass if they meet the following criteria:

• Their misdeeds happened before the Internet
• They are white
• They are considered "groundbreaking" or"visionary."

Hence why Chris Brown is seen as a scumbag, but John Lennon isn't.  And I agree with the inconsistency in treatment.  Sometimes I feel like boycotting an artist.  Other times it isn't an intentional boycott, but I stop simply because I can't avoid thinking about what the artist did when I try to listen or watch their work.

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, GeoBQn said:

I think celebrities tend to get a pass if they meet the following criteria:

• Their misdeeds happened before the Internet
• They are white
• They are considered "groundbreaking" or"visionary."

Hence why Chris Brown is seen as a scumbag, but John Lennon isn't.  And I agree with the inconsistency in treatment.  Sometimes I feel like boycotting an artist.  Other times it isn't an intentional boycott, but I stop simply because I can't avoid thinking about what the artist did when I try to listen or watch their work.

In a related note, I was thinking about how male athletes can literally rape and pillage and have their jerseys sell out, while Tonya Harding was banned from skating for life for an ill-conceived, non-lethal attack on a competitor. Now, I don't think people should go around hitting each other or hiring other people to do it for them, but I don't see how banning Harding from skating helped anyone. I think her real crime was making skating look bad (although the women's skating program from when Harding and Nancy Kerrigan competed is one of the highest rated television programs of all time), and not adhering to the "lady-like" standards for how a figure skater is supposed to look and act. Kerrigan was also from a dysfunctional working class background like Harding, but she looked and acted like the "ice princess" that most people expect from a female figure skater.

[nausicaa]

17 hours ago, GeoBQn said:

 

Then one of my friends posted this article, about the conflicting urges to love David Bowie's ground-breaking artistry and hate the way he treated women in his past.  That was the first time I learned he had been accused of rape, and that he once had sex with a 14 year old.

http://aidamanduley.com/2016/01/12/david-bowie-time-to-mourn-or-call-out-2/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork

 

I'll have to read more about the statutory rape allegations. 

As for the rape charge in the 1980s, I have an issue with still essentially holding him guilty of that. I understand the author's point, yes, cases are dismissed when the crime still happened. But I'm uncomfortably with treating anyone who is ever accused of anything as automatically and permanently guilty. He got his day in court and the judge decided there was insufficient evidence. Just as guilty people get let off, innocent people also get charged with crimes. 

To me this is very different from the cases of Woody Allen or Roman Polanski, where each have essentially admitted to most of the charges and there is overwhelming evidence. 

[Rachel333]

What did Queen do wrong? 

[GeoBQn]

12 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

What did Queen do wrong? 

Actually, not much that I can see.  

[Walking Cat Bed]

I tend to see celebrity drama/scandal as either ongoing or situational. And my perception of the individual, in light of scandal, is related to whether there is evidence that the scandal is true, how the celebrity reacted, and how often it happened.

Abusing several significant others (Charlie Sheen, Mel Gibson), child abuse (physical or sexual), vocal racism or homophobia, ongoing fraud...Those are shitty and make me want to avoid putting money in that person's pocket. On the other hand, a few years of recklessness or instability that the person has dealt with (Britney Spears, anyone?) ultimately balance out. I heard about David Bowie and the teenage girl a few days ago; even though it happened in his wild and drug-fueled early years, it's not okay that he had sex with a teenager. Yes, it was the age of young groupies being allowed backstage and into parties, and she shouldn't have been there -- but that's why celebrities have managers. She shouldn't have been allowed to stay for the drugs and sex. (I am not blaming her at all -- if Bowie was too far gone to notice that she was nowhere near adulthood, a manager or someone should have helped her get home. At least one adult in that environment failed her.) 

The other situation is hiding under the spoiler tag.

Spoiler

I read the newspaper blurb about the sexual assault trial; she claimed that he both attacked her and told her he'd exposed her to AIDS. The blurb included his offer, on the stand, to be tested for AIDS, and that the case wasn't pursued further. So, yes, it's possible that he was just good at charming people, but it's also possible that she was attacked by someone associated with Bowie or someone else entirely. But I really don't know. 

 

 

Basically, I don't assume that a celebrity is a dirtbag the second someone claims bad behavior, but I don't dismiss that claim, either. 

[AmazonGrace]

I feel less guilty about listening to music by dead scumbags than living scumbags who are still profiting. 

[AuntCloud]

@Walking Cat Bed - excellent point about situational vs. ongoing drama. On the other hand, can we make distinctions between levels of ongoing drama? I honestly don't know about ongoing abusiveness, violence and general assholery, but what do you do with run-of-the-mill unpleasantness? My absolute favourite musician, Ryan (not Bryan!) Adams, is ridiculously talented but also has a nasty temper and was a complete douche to many of his fellow musicians (Google the Songwriter's Circle incident with Janis Ian and Neil Finn, for starters). I discovered him later, when he was over his truly self-destructive phase and mellowed out a bit, and was super excited when his tour arrived to my city. At the concert he came off as either painfully shy, which made it quite painful to watch, or downright unpleasant. I love his music and talent and always will, but seeing him up close and personal definitely took my love down a notch. 

[onlyme]

I feel a lot of conflict over this too. Especially with Led Zeppelin. Not only were they extremely disrespectful to women, I've seen things around that they ripped off lesser known blues artists. But there are some songs by them that I actually crave. 

[Myrtille]

The allegations of rape: one is presumed innocent unless proven guilty. In this case, the jury cleared Bowie and the police didn't file charges. So maybe we should consider him innocent, instead of forever guilty. 

The statutory rape: while I agree that Bowie, as an adult man, should have known better, or at least someone else in his entourage, the girl in question insists it was a "beautiful experience" even when the reporter/interviewer pushes her to reconsider it. Also, we should remember that the mores were different in the 70s, and attitudes towards sex were way more relaxed back then. (This doesn't mean that I think it's OK for a 25 yr old man to have sex with a 14 yr old; he's the adult and should do the thinking, but being an idiot is even easier than usually when drugs and alcohol are involved.)

This said, and on a general note, I tend to dissociate the artist from the private persona. This allows me to still enjoy the music/art even if I know they are otherwise perfect a-holes. Artists are after all mortal human beings, and just like the rest of us, some are better humans than others. I tend to think of Bowie as being in the better category, although he must have had some pretty sordid stories of his own.

[NakedKnees]

This is always such an interesting conversation. The key factor to me is financial support. If I do not want to support an artist's actions, I avoid ingesting their art via my money (albums, shows, Youtube, etc.). Outside of those venues, it's a lot easier to discuss "I like X's art, but X did Y" without feeling very hypocritical.

However, some things I will absolutely "drag through the coals" more than others. David Bowie committing consensual statutory rape is less severe than Woody Allen's ongoing unapologetic behavior, in my opinion.