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Christian Couple Who Spank Denied Foster Child


roddma

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I wonder if they use the Pearl methods or Fundie. I dont have enough info. Anyhow, anyone who says the Bible condones spanking disturbs me.
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/christian-couple-who-spank-kids-for-biblical-reasons-denied-right-to-adopt-by-mass-supreme-court/

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3 hours ago, roddma said:

I wonder if they use the Pearl methods or Fundie. I dont have enough info. Anyhow, anyone who says the Bible condones spanking disturbs me.

It does.  The bible condones a lot of things, like rape, and beating slaves.  That's why we won't let one in our house.

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17 minutes ago, gustava said:

Wonder if this will end up in court.

This case is local to me and has been going on for a couple of years.  This is the Supreme Judicial Court ruling after the case was already appealed in Superior Court.  Superior Court affirmed the original denial.

More info:  http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2016/01/05/sjc-spanking-enough-deny-foster-parent-application/ca9knas1oqCC9VUNPp25dP/story.html

 Not everyone who spanks is a Pearl follower and goes to those lengths, but I wish MA would outlaw it completely.  Some hope although MA is usually progressive about things like this.  The latest ruling regarding defining "reasonable" spanking here:  http://www.wcvb.com/news/massachusetts-court-offers-guidelines-on-spanking/33772990

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I've got to agree with that quote about some foster kids already being traumatized.  Watching another child being spanked could cause all kinds of fears. These kids need love and support not 'the fear of God.'

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1 minute ago, Khan said:

I've got to agree with that quote about some foster kids already being traumatized.  Watching another child being spanked could cause all kinds of fears. These kids need love and support not 'the fear of God.'

Yeah, I agree. Foster kids are generally put in the system because they've experienced something horrible. They do not need to be subjected to further awfulness. 

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46 minutes ago, Khan said:

I've got to agree with that quote about some foster kids already being traumatized.  Watching another child being spanked could cause all kinds of fears. These kids need love and support not 'the fear of God.'

The bolded has always been something I've been puzzled about. If God is supposed to be loving & accepting, why the need to fear him? Doesn't that go against the whole point of a God that loves everyone?

Now that I think about it, though, that was most likely a phrase created to have the masses (back in the day that were mostly uneducated & couldn't read) be under control of Those That Could. If memory serves from my college days, so was the concept of "Satan", too.

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The article I read on yahoo had them saying they would not spank the foster kid but they would continue to spank their children. Their children are 10, 12 and an infant, which I feel are all ages not really in the "spanking" category, but that's not really the point. The problem is they don't seem to understand why spanking their kids and not the foster kid is a problem, both from the "you're different from our real kids" standpoint and from a DV/abuse trigger standpoint. And then they said something along the lines of "a lot of foster parents are way worse than us." Ok, so you're not the lowest common denominator, but you're being pretty stubborn and willfully ignorant of your parenting choices and how you have to alter parenting styles when you have a child with past traumas.

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Well in Canada the law contains:

Quote

Spanking could be used against children between the ages of two and 12 years old

So the little one is "safe" and the older one is about to age out of spanking. If they were really that committed to Fostering a child you would think that they may consider another form of discipline..

The fact that the need to spank outweighs their desire to foster speaks volumes to me.

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2 hours ago, LadyCrow1313 said:

The bolded has always been something I've been puzzled about. If God is supposed to be loving & accepting, why the need to fear him? Doesn't that go against the whole point of a God that loves everyone?

Now that I think about it, though, that was most likely a phrase created to have the masses (back in the day that were mostly uneducated & couldn't read) be under control of Those That Could. If memory serves from my college days, so was the concept of "Satan", too.

When I was a kid my Catholic school didn't call it fear of God, but Wonder and Awe instead. It's like, you don't want to sin because you're in awe of God, because you love and respect God so much, not because you're afraid of Him. (It was kind of a warm and fuzzy school.)

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In the UK currently, there is a very clear message that fostering and adoption processes are primarily about finding families for children, and not the reverse. It is considered a job as well as a vocation.

With fostering, the children remain in the care of the local authority and the foster parent is given delegated responsibilities to act on behalf of the local authority. There are clear rules about discipline, pocket money, clothing allowances, etc, and they are the same for all children (with age appropriate amounts of money).  And rules for the carers including about how they spend the child-related allowances, whether or not people with certain criminal records can be in the house at any time, whether smokers can be in the house, etc.

If a prospective foster care can't commit to the responsibilities that are set out in advance then they can't apply for the job (just as with any other paid job). Seriously, how many other situations can we think of where someone argues for the right to hit other people that annoy them in either a workplace or domestic situation?

I don't understand how cases like these ever get so far that they are all over the media.  We do sometimes get cases in the UK that hit the media when they are backed by one or another right wing Christian organisations, and in those cases it often seems that the organisation is just using the individual case to "take a stand" against whatever is the issue of the day. Could that be what's going on here?

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It's a good thing. Spanking before age 5 especially is correlated with lower IQ because the stress of the spanking when done repeatedly makes the brain release a wash of cortisol, the stress hormone. Which is really bad for neural growth in plastic brains.

Granted, it's only a correlation. But I still think it's too much to risk a child's intelligence just to quickly be able to control them.

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ETA:  the last case I could find in the UK was in 2008, where the family ended up being turned down because they could not change their discipline choices for the sake of completing the fostering process.  Apparently they "only" wanted the freedom to smack their birth daughter "once or twice a year", and felt discriminated against, and "heartbroken" and holier-than-the-rest who they claim probably would have lied to the social worker and smacked their kids regardless. Immature foot-stamping asses.

http://www.christianconcern.com/node/1247

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Spanking just came up on my newsfeed this morning because Ted Cruz told a crowd that his 5 year old daughter gets spanked if she tells a lie.  The latest polls show that Republicans and Black Democrats have not changed in their support of spanking but that it has fallen out of favor with white Democrats-- so basically New England is becoming less favorable to spanking.  About time.  I consider it barbaric and useless as a tool to teach right from wrong.  The only I learned from spanking was how to be a better liar and hide my "crimes" better.  Spanking did not teach me to love my parents nor did it teach me to be a happier, more cheerful person which is what my mom spanked me for mostly.

 

 

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Denying them the right to adopt was the correct decision. There is absolutely no place for corporal punishment in a home that wants to take in children from the foster care system. Spanking may be a huge debate in the United States (and personally, I am against it for any child) but when it comes to foster kids it just... isn't even debatable whether it's harmful. It clearly is.

If they were truly committed to adoption, they would have learned about the reasons why that is the case and changed their discipline strategy. Since they care more about their "right" to spank than they care about what's best for the children, they don't deserve to foster or adopt.

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The idea of having "the right to adopt" is bizarre to me.  

Adoption is a role for which we may apply and for which we may or may not be approved.

No-one has any automatic right to raise children that are being looked-after by the state, surely?

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@blessalessi

I would think they could change their discipline methods if they felt so strongly about adopting. That they wouldn't even consider changing means they probably feel spanking is"commanded"and that they can't raise good Christian child without it ( I know people like this) And if that's really how they believe they would have spanked the adopted children as well. Not that there is any way to spank some children and not others in a family without creating issues.

 

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4 hours ago, LadyCrow1313 said:

The bolded has always been something I've been puzzled about. If God is supposed to be loving & accepting, why the need to fear him? Doesn't that go against the whole point of a God that loves everyone?

Now that I think about it, though, that was most likely a phrase created to have the masses (back in the day that were mostly uneducated & couldn't read) be under control of Those That Could. If memory serves from my college days, so was the concept of "Satan", too.

An archaic definition of fear is "reverential awe." 

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The church my family attended during my early years was of the sort that told us God would be angry and wrathful if we committed sins. God loves you but God will punish you. Great excuse for parents who hit their children as 'discipline.'

I agree with previous statements that adoption is a privilege not a right. These children are lost, hurting, confused. Knowing that their adoptive parents resolve problems with violence isn't going to give them a warm fuzzy feeling.

I find the concept of 'the right to spank' abhorrent.  

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2 hours ago, Anonymousguest said:

@blessalessi

I would think they could change their discipline methods if they felt so strongly about adopting. That they wouldn't even consider changing means they probably feel spanking is"commanded"and that they can't raise good Christian child without it ( I know people like this) And if that's really how they believe they would have spanked the adopted children as well. Not that there is any way to spank some children and not others in a family without creating issues.

This is what I suspect whenever these issues come up. 

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While im not against ALL spanking, a foster child's needs are quite different. You think they would learn this through the classes they take, and if you cant adjust you dont need to be approved. . Not intending to start debate about the 'right to spank' your own kids, but call me old school or whatever. Kids have to learn consequences...

I guess i read too many stories of kids roughing up adults, threatening violence, destroy property, hit other kids etc because they know the adults will do nothing back. I read a story somewhere where kids pushed woman getting off a bus. There was a time you could reprimand someone else's kid without anyone blinking an eye and you were expected to do it.Now its leave my 'little speshul' snowflake alone, how dare you correct them. And I honestly dont know what the answer is a lot of times. Discipline methods that work for one child doesnt work for another, which I think is a huge problem in Fundie/conservative circles in general. Then ,you can raise them to the best of your ability in a loving environment and still end up with a felon.

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There's a huge difference between not disciplining via corporal punishment versus not disciplining or setting limits at all. The two concepts seem to get conflated a lot to explain poor behavior, when in my opinion the issue is really the latter.

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8 minutes ago, Mercer said:

There's a huge difference between not disciplining via corporal punishment versus not disciplining or setting limits at all. The two concepts seem to get conflated a lot to explain poor behavior, when in my opinion the issue is really the latter.

I agree 100% I used to think I wasn't completely against spanking, but the older I get, the more I am. And I did spank my older (now adult) children. I just thought that was the only way, it was all I knew and was exposed to. It was the basis for ALL Christian parenting books as programs. I've apologized and said when you know better, you do better. I'm sure I'm screwing up my younger kids in now and different ways though.

I know a family who was turned down from our county foster care agency because they would not agree not to spank their own children. They didn't sue over it, just decided it wasn't for them. But I have friends who have adopted from other counties and they don't make a big deal about spanking, so I guess it varies from county to county, or likely from case worker to worker.

 

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Excellent point Mercer.  [I took the bait but then changed my mind.]  The way to raise decent human beings is to treat them with decency.  

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