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karen77

For all the atheists out there!!

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Satisfied
ALM7
5 hours ago, karen77 said:

@karen77 Thank you for sharing, I'm looking forward to diving into the article. In fact, the entire site appears to have interesting topics.

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Puzzled
Fascinated

Well, I always appreciate reading those more eloquent than I. I've asked questions regarding many of these points here on FJ and received many intelligent and thoughtful answers. But, I maintain that I will never understand the religious viewpoint. I do not have the mental capacity to understand, try as I might (and I really do try). Thanks for posting this, @karen77.  It just seems so cut and dried to me.  I  simply don't understand why it isn't so for the majority of people. 

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karen77

Yeah, it really summed up religious issues for me, I just don't get it and I have a hard time explaining most of that also.

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iweartanktops

Damn... I've really been leaning this way for awhile... This may have tipped the scale. I don't know how to feel. 

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Puzzled
Fascinated
Just now, iweartanktops6 said:

Damn... I've really been leaning this way for awhile... This may have tipped the scale. I don't know how to feel. 

Aw, I can't imagine what it's like to have doubts and questions. I can only tell you that it feels pretty nice to not have to worry about eternal damnation and the like. Honestly, I just try to be a good person, without needing any prompting from 'above' or an ancient book, and love my family and friends. What else is there, really?  I don't mean to belittle anything but, for me, it really is that simple. 

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Vex

I've seen Christians meet those questions with thoughtful responses that didn't involve circular logic, but there are always theists out there who do talk in that way and do make those arguments.

I'm a bit leery about blogs/vlogs where atheists speak out about religion because 1) I'm an atheist, and don't want to be lumped in with people who just bullbait and harass religious folks under the banner of atheism and 2) because despite being an atheist, I don't look down on theists and don't want to give the appearance that I am doing so.

That being said, the tone of the article doesn't seem overly negative or anything. I certainly agree with many of the points there (like how can you say god is all powerful and then list a tiny number of things as being 'of god' and a huge number of things as being 'of the devil'? Why can't god smite the devil?). Theologians can give very good responses to those questions, but your typical proud Christian can't. It's a shame, because you can question the logic behind the bible and still be a good Christian.

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singsingsing

Most of these seem like contradictions fundies just can't stop making, not theists in general. This blog post presents an extremely narrow view of theism... it seems to apply mainly to white anglo saxon protestant Christians in the United States, and is actually quite insulting and demeaning to the multitude of intelligent and compassionate theists out there ("all" theists "just can't stop" behaving hatefully and then saying god bless? Really?).

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Puzzled
Fascinated
1 minute ago, Vex said:

I've seen Christians meet those questions with thoughtful responses that didn't involve circular logic, but there are always theists out there who do talk in that way and do make those arguments.

I'm a bit leery about blogs/vlogs where atheists speak out about religion because 1) I'm an atheist, and don't want to be lumped in with people who just bullbait and harass religious folks under the banner of atheism and 2) because despite being an atheist, I don't look down on theists and don't want to give the appearance that I am doing so.

That being said, the tone of the article doesn't seem overly negative or anything. I certainly agree with many of the points there (like how can you say god is all powerful and then list a tiny number of things as being 'of god' and a huge number of things as being 'of the devil'? Why can't god smite the devil?). Theologians can give very good responses to those questions, but your typical proud Christian can't. It's a shame, because you can question the logic behind the bible and still be a good Christian.

Well said, @Vex.  That's a problem I have, too. I don't look down on anyone and all of our friends believe in god, although most don't seem to live a 'religious' life, if that's even the proper phrase.  It's very hard to discuss without coming off as a jerk. So, I really don't discuss it. Our friends are all aware of my stance but it has not once been a problem. 

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Vex
Just now, singsingsing said:

Most of these seem like contradictions fundies just can't stop making, not theists in general. This blog post presents an extremely narrow view of theism... it seems to apply mainly to white anglo saxon protestant Christians in the United States, and is actually quite insulting and demeaning to the multitude of intelligent and compassionate theists out there ("all" theists "just can't stop" behaving hatefully and then saying god bless? Really?).

Yeah, that was my problem too. They're tarring all theists with the same brush when I know plenty of extremely thoughtful theists who not only do answer those questions but want to and look for answers without being prompted.

This is much more of an ignorant Christian (like fundies) viewpoint than just being 'theist' viewpoints. That's the danger for me in atheists writing things like this  - that they'll either be overly mean or they'll generalise, or both. I know theists do those things too with atheists, but that doesn't make it okay.

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iweartanktops
3 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Most of these seem like contradictions fundies just can't stop making, not theists in general. This blog post presents an extremely narrow view of theism... it seems to apply mainly to white anglo saxon protestant Christians in the United States, and is actually quite insulting and demeaning to the multitude of intelligent and compassionate theists out there ("all" theists "just can't stop" behaving hatefully and then saying god bless? Really?).

Yeah, that really bothered me. I chose to let it slide, but it's really inappropriate. 

10 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

Aw, I can't imagine what it's like to have doubts and questions. I can only tell you that it feels pretty nice to not have to worry about eternal damnation and the like. Honestly, I just try to be a good person, without needing any prompting from 'above' or an ancient book, and love my family and friends. What else is there, really?  I don't mean to belittle anything but, for me, it really is that simple. 

I've changed my mind/heart months ago, but my loved ones would be devastated to know. 

A couple of the statements in the article have never say right with me. Mainly, why people suffer if God is so loving. It doesn't make sense. 

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Puzzled
Fascinated
3 minutes ago, iweartanktops6 said:

Yeah, that really bothered me. I chose to let it slide, but it's really inappropriate. 

Me, too. I don't think any of us would agree with that. Hence why we are uncomfortable with the more, um, vehement atheists out there. 

6 minutes ago, iweartanktops6 said:

Yeah, that really bothered me. I chose to let it slide, but it's really inappropriate. 

I've changed my mind/heart months ago, but my loved ones would be devastated to know. 

A couple of the statements in the article have never say right with me. Mainly, why people suffer if God is so loving. It doesn't make sense. 

It really doesn't, @iweartanktops6.

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Whoosh

I agree both that the article has some good points and that it speaks to a very narrow slice of the larger group that are known as theists.  I tend to agree with fascinated in terms of I really don't quite get why the default isn't non-theism (of course, I personally think it would be if we could conduct true experiments on human newborns - not that I am wishing that or suggesting it in any way and I realize many or most theists would not agree with me here as to the likely outcome of any such study).  On the other hand, I do also get frustrated when non-theists or atheists or whatever dismiss or make fun of the concept of faith.  Sure, I don't really get it and can't really fathom how one could have this thing called faith - that doesn't mean I am right to think that way however.  I would say it's pretty much a shoe in for head of the list of WHY I am a non-theist, but I don't know if this is just due to upbringing, a result of superior logic skills ;) kidding, or some type of deficit or disability ;) also kidding.

We just can't know if you ask me.

Edited by Whoosh

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Vex

I can't stand 'militant atheists' (which, in my view, is no different to being religious, there's just no deity involved) who take glee in trying to tear down other people's beliefs. It makes me sick. I am extremely critical of organised religion but I will fight tooth and nail for a person's right to personal faith. As long as it's not hurting people I think it's wonderful. So many bad atheists just use the evils of organised religion to condemn faith wholesale. I would never forgive myself if I destroyed a person's faith, but some of these people take great pride in it and arrogantly believe they're doing what's right for them. How do they not see that's the same as a Baptist who goes soul winning?

That's why I'm so glad my SO is a theologian. We can discuss religion and spirituality all we like with no hurt feelings, it's awesome.

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Mrsaztx

im generally in the "don't care what you believe as long as you're not a dick about it" camp. However I have to admit I'm internally really sad that my niece, who's 7, goes to a religious school and has started spouting "blind religious" nonsense. Like "I chose this book because it has Jesus on the cover". Ugh, honey, no. I just hope she grows out of that. Sadly her mother is a terrible Christian, having all the hatred of different people, and no knowledge at all of the bible or her religion besides being *sure* gays are bad somehow. The good news is her mother has very little to do with her family and my family all thinks that's nonsense so maybe the girl has a chance

my point being: super religious kids make me sad

Edited by Mrsaztx

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Whoosh
12 minutes ago, Vex said:

I can't stand 'militant atheists' (which, in my view, is no different to being religious, there's just no deity involved) who take glee in trying to tear down other people's beliefs. It makes me sick. I am extremely critical of organised religion but I will fight tooth and nail for a person's right to personal faith. As long as it's not hurting people I think it's wonderful. So many bad atheists just use the evils of organised religion to condemn faith wholesale. I would never forgive myself if I destroyed a person's faith, but some of these people take great pride in it and arrogantly believe they're doing what's right for them. How do they not see that's the same as a Baptist who goes soul winning?

That's why I'm so glad my SO is a theologian. We can discuss religion and spirituality all we like with no hurt feelings, it's awesome.

This is so well stated I want to copy it and store it on my desktop for later plagerism use. :clap:

I personally think that some (possibly a very small number, but some) militant atheists see the current global political climate as the perfect opportunity to divide and conquer so to speak.  Statements, like "they are all just terrible, but that is THE WORST" should probably trigger thoughts of the quote "First they came for...".

Edited by Whoosh

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slickcat79
13 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Most of these seem like contradictions fundies just can't stop making, not theists in general. This blog post presents an extremely narrow view of theism... it seems to apply mainly to white anglo saxon protestant Christians in the United States, and is actually quite insulting and demeaning to the multitude of intelligent and compassionate theists out there ("all" theists "just can't stop" behaving hatefully and then saying god bless? Really?).

At no point in time did she refer to "all" theists, in regards to behaving hatefully or anything else. I believe that the use of the word "theist" is to be inclusive of various backgrounds and beliefs, because that type of behavior can come from anyone. But of course, when you live in the US it's easiest to respond to white protestant Christians because those make up the vast majority of theists that you run into.

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Spent
Shoobydoo

I find the author's tone is a little bit snippy, but not too bad. I think she could have been more polite, but I also tend towards excessive politeness when I write. (it's a defense mechanism! whee!) There's a really fine stylistic thread writers have to balance on here-- be too confident in your statements and people think you are insulting theists. Use too many qualifiers and your writing comes off as hesitant, like you don't really believe what you're saying. Not to mention it's just bad form and not fun to read.

I think there's a big problem when it comes to atheists discussing their beliefs/lack thereof/problems they have with religion in that some (not all) religious people of all stripes will interpret ANYTHING they say as an insult and jump down their throats. It's seen as more acceptable because atheists are on the fringe of society and "how dare you insult someone's religious beliefs" and blah blah blah. People invent strawmen where there are none. 

As a disclaimer, I've been an atheist most of my life, but never an anti-theist. I completely disagree with anti-theism, and I don't like to associate with people who are. Unfortunately, the most noticeable people in any group are the assholes who scream the loudest, and that's true of everyone from atheists to christian fundamentalists.

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