Hey Everyone, Let's Dial Back the Creepiness

[Curious]

26 minutes ago, Lamoria said:

Edit: Also, the burner phone thing was first spoken about in November, (not necessarily directed towards Mods- read above, I agree with now that their info is private, it stops, yadda yadda) but maybe you people who take such offense to it should have come out of the woodwork sooner rather then latching onto it and calling people from that forum creepy. I'm not trying to be a brat here, I understand that is a stated opinion, but it isn't like that forum is brand new  and all these things happened yesterday.

One thing people need to remember is that FJ is a public site for the most part.  We have lots of guest traffic (LOTS).   While our members may not mean any harm, we have NO idea who our guest traffic is.  

I think it's incumbent on us to remember this because someone could read about activities that are posted about here and because we didn't say anything about the behavior or try to curtail it that it's perfectly fine/acceptable and take things to a whole other level than our members did.

We also have people out there that, in the past, have done things in the name of FJ when they were disgruntled ex-members or maybe just people trolling and getting a kick out of making it seem like our behavior is inappropriate.

There are so many factors out of our control that we err on the side of caution pretty much always.

Regarding the bit I quoted above, I don't read the Duggar forum unless there is something I need to address, for the most part.   So unless someone reports something, we often don't even know it's happening.   There are a few on the administrative team and thousands of members.  It's impossible for us to read every single post and we rely on members to help police the forum.  

We have a lot of really good self-policing (we always have), so unless we hear about a particular problem it may slip through the cracks for a period of time.  Once I find out about an issue, I act on it.   The reason  I acted when I did was because trying to find ways around privacy to be able to post here is against the rules.    During the course of looking at information, the burner phone stuff came to my attention, so it got addressed as well.

We knew people were using flightware to track the flight and there was nothing wrong with that.  The information was readily available to the public.  I'm not sure I have a problem with someone going to the airport to watch a plane land, but when people start talking about burner phones and special phone codes and whatnot, that escalates the situation to another level, IMO.

47 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Wait...I thought the whole point of board culture is that people had to learn to fit in, and not that culture changed as you described.

FWIW- I always thought that a stagnant board culture was unattainable, but the message this past spring and summer was pretty clear that members needed to evolve, and not the board culture.

The forum is constantly evolving.  We have to or we'd die.  Stuff that people thought was ok 10 years ago would most likely not fly today.  Stuff that happened 3 years ago even probably wouldn't fly now.

There is a difference between the natural evolution of a community and a bunch of new people coming in and riding roughshod over the established community.  That is not a natural evolution and if that is allowed to happen, it's likely that the more established members of the forum would eventually leave, which is not good for community health.

The huge influx of people we got from the various Joshgates was also not a "natural" occurrence.  A forum normally adds people in dribs and drabs and as a result they are not able to force community evolution.  When you have a large number of people joining all at once, who don't understand/care about the community/board culture it would be very easy for them to effect board culture in negative ways if allowed to run it's natural course.

[Lamoria]

1 minute ago, Curious said:

One thing people need to remember is that FJ is a public site for the most part.  We have lots of guest traffic (LOTS).   While our members may not mean any harm, we have NO idea who our guest traffic is.  

I think it's incumbent on us to remember this because someone could read about activities that are posted about here and because we didn't say anything about the behavior or try to curtail it that it's perfectly fine/acceptable and take things to a whole other level than our members did.

We also have people out there that, in the past, have done things in the name of FJ when they were disgruntled ex-members or maybe just people trolling and getting a kick out of making it seem like our behavior is inappropriate.

There are so many factors out of our control that we err on the side of caution pretty much always.

Regarding the bit I quoted above, I don't read the Duggar forum unless there is something I need to address, for the most part.   So unless someone reports something, we often don't even know it's happening.   There are a few on the administrative team and thousands of members.  It's impossible for us to read every single post and we rely on members to help police the forum.  

We have a lot of really good self-policing (we always have), so unless we hear about a particular problem it may slip through the cracks for a period of time.  Once I find out about an issue, I act on it.   The reason  I acted when I did was because trying to find ways around privacy to be able to post here is against the rules.    During the course of looking at information, the burner phone stuff came to my attention, so it got addressed as well.

We knew people were using flightware to track the flight and there was nothing wrong with that.  The information was readily available to the public.  I'm not sure I have a problem with someone going to the airport to watch a plane land, but when people start talking about burner phones and special phone codes and whatnot, that escalates the situation to another level, IMO.

I understand, and I agree. To *MY* knowledge, that user or that phone was never used. I never used it, though I suppose I can't speak for anyone else on this forum. My offense is with the people calling others (I suppose myself) creepy. As someone else said above (I don't remember who and I don't want to loose my place rereading) Others draw the line of "creepiness" elsewhere then I, or others, do. I can respect that. Six months ago would I have seen myself going to RFD to see the Duggars? Probably not. Though when I found that thread, and other users had done it, I actually enjoyed it. And yes, 45 minutes of it was me and my fiancee in the car cracking jokes and listening to Pandora. All of 4 minutes was spent on the Duggars and their plane.

I respect that the line is drawn elsewhere then myself, but I don't feel I deserve to be condemned for that.

 

[Curious]

2 minutes ago, Lamoria said:

I respect that the line is drawn elsewhere then myself, but I don't feel I deserve to be condemned for that.

No one is being condemned.  We did not address any posters by name and hold them up as an example.   Nothing was said when the information was public.  No one did anything wrong while the information was public.

What you do on your own time is your business and I have no need/want to control our member's real life activities.

The problem is that when you start talking about escalating the behavior that there wasn't anything particularly wrong with, you have taken things to a whole other level.

This is a snark forum, we often use some hyperbole in announcement type threads because it gets people's attention and they actually READ the post.    I titled a thread something like Kittens will die if you don't read this, but I'm not out there killing kitties because only a handful of people actually read the announcement.

Trying to skirt privacy is a bit creepy, IMO.  We have rules about it and even if someone has laid their whole life out for the world to see, if at some point they desire privacy that is their choice and it should be respected.  

If people want to skirt the Duggar's request for privacy, that is their business.   However, when they then post that information on FJ it becomes my problem and we have rules that say that type of thing is NOT allowed.

ETA: when I say you I'm talking the general you, not @Lamoria specifically, just to be clear.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, Lamoria said:

I understand, and I agree. To *MY* knowledge, that user or that phone was never used. I never used it, though I suppose I can't speak for anyone else on this forum. My offense is with the people calling others (I suppose myself) creepy. As someone else said above (I don't remember who and I don't want to loose my place rereading) Others draw the line of "creepiness" elsewhere then I, or others, do. I can respect that. Six months ago would I have seen myself going to RFD to see the Duggars? Probably not. Though when I found that thread, and other users had done it, I actually enjoyed it. And yes, 45 minutes of it was me and my fiancee in the car cracking jokes and listening to Pandora. All of 4 minutes was spent on the Duggars and their plane.

I respect that the line is drawn elsewhere then myself, but I don't feel I deserve to be condemned for that.

 

I said it.  More than once.  I agree that people draw their lines in different places, so people who think that behavior is okay will certainly disagree with me.  

I don't understand what "deserving to be condemned" means.  No one implied that you had malicious intent, and in fact I went out of my way to say that I don't believe anyone involved did.  But as you said people draw their lines differently and if your behavior crossed over the creepy line for some and they stated that that's not condemning you.  It's stating an opinion about your behavior.

No one in this thread (or elsewhere that I've seen) has made sweeping judgement about the people involved as people or general posters.  The discussion has been confined to discussing the behavior that some find really problematic.  

There are some issues where each point of view should be weighted equally because each could be considered valid.  That's never the case when one pov is that the other opinion is harmful and morally wrong.  

Disagreeing, even adamantly, with a behavior =/= condemning a person.

 

 

 

[Lamoria]

Just now, Curious said:

No one is being condemned.  We did not address any posters by name and hold them up as an example.   Nothing was said when the information was public.  No one did anything wrong while the information was public.

What you do on your own time is your business and I have no need/want to control our member's real life activities.

The problem is that when you start talking about escalating the behavior that there wasn't anything particularly wrong with, you have taken things to a whole other level.

This is a snark forum, we often use some hyperbole in announcement type threads because it gets people's attention and they actually READ the post.    I titled a thread something like Kittens will die if you don't read this, but I'm not out there killing kitties because only a handful of people actually read the announcement.

Trying to skirt privacy is a bit creepy, IMO.  We have rules about it and even if someone has laid their whole life out for the world to see, if at some point they desire privacy that is their choice and it should be respected.  

If people want to skirt the Duggar's request for privacy, that is their business.   However, when they then post that information on FJ it becomes my problem and we have rules that say that type of thing is NOT allowed.

Absolutely. I agree (as stated above) that now that their plane's are private, that stops. Public was fair game, private should be respected, you are 100% right, we do not disagree there one iota.

I understand FJ is a snark form (and truthfully- I hate cats!) I don't think we (me and you), or maybe anyone (me and anyone) can 100% come to an agreement here- and that is ok.

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

<snip>

Disagreeing, even adamantly, with a behavior =/= condemning a person.

Yeah, condemning was far too strong of a word choice. I agree.

 

[Whoosh]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Wait...I thought the whole point of board culture is that people had to learn to fit in, and not that culture changed as you described.

FWIW- I always thought that a stagnant board culture was unattainable, but the message this past spring and summer was pretty clear that members needed to evolve, and not the board culture.

Somewhat like the interpretation of the Constitution, it is a bit of both.  Scalia and RBG will never agree on a lot of it - and you accept the ruling or decision and live life. 

ETA - unless, of course, you make it your own personal Roe v Wade or something.... Citizens United is mine.

[halcionne]

2 hours ago, Lamoria said:

now that their plane's are private

The Cessna is still public, for the record. 

[Lamoria]

3 minutes ago, halcionne said:

The Cessna is still public, for the record. 

Lol! That cracked me up!

[Flyinthesoup]

6 minutes ago, halcionne said:

The Cessna is still public, for the record. 

And, if the Cirrus shows up on any open flight tracking system, then it's not 'blocked' legally, meaning it was paid for.  Now, having said that, it does appear that it's being blocked via the proper channels.  I just wanted to make sure we understand that Flightaware is not a public site, but rather a privately owned site, along with other flight tracking sites.  

 

[Whoosh]

Just now, Lamoria said:

Lol! That cracked me up!

Me too.  I also want to point out that I think most people realize that no one set out from ground zero and went straight to the situation that prompted this thread.  After reading a bit of the aviation threads, it seems pretty clear to me that someone realized they could see where the plane was going and posted about it.  Others enjoyed reading it and encouraged it.  At some point, someone nearby thought something like "huh, I could drive over and actually see what's what".  Others encouraged that.  etc. etc.

I am holding back on stating exactly where I personally draw lines, but y'all should know that people are mostly talking about the cumulative effect of the entire thing here.

[Flyinthesoup]

4 minutes ago, Lamoria said:

Lol! That cracked me up!

Me, too!  It does not see much action, obviously.   We know the preferred choice of travel.

[ksgranola1]

Quote

 

It seemed to me that everyone was cheering & egging the involved party on. So why did it cross the creepy line

just today.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

13 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

It seemed to me that everyone was cheering & egging the involved party on. So why did it cross the creepy line

just today.

Not everyone.  A handful of people who posted in that thread.  

And as to the timing - as was stated upthread when it was noticed (the catalyst being the blocking and moving the thread) it was addressed.  We typically have between 20-25 thousand posts in a given month and helpmeets cannot read every one.  No one reported it so it wasn't known until now.  

[Cartmann99]

19 hours ago, singsingsing said:

They might... if they were insane.

Word. I live where a lot of people own guns, and are very protective of their property and their privacy. I'm not foolish enough to risk getting shot or going to jail just to take a peep at my neighbor's backyard electric meter. 

[HereticHick]

My creepiness dial goes up to 11

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, HereticHick said:

My creepiness dial goes up to 11

Eleven.  Exactly.  One creepier.  (or should we say eleventy?  )

(If you weren't making a Spinal Tap reference ignore me.)

 

[singsingsing]

1 hour ago, Cartmann99 said:

Word. I live where a lot of people own guns, and are very protective of their property and their privacy. I'm not foolish enough to risk getting shot or going to jail just to take a peep at my neighbor's backyard electric meter. 

I live in a place that's essentially the opposite, and it still sounds equally insane. I mean I used to vet dozens of completed court cases every day, and that's the sort of shit you see in peace bond (restraining order) applications. So yeah, not normal, haha.

[Srilaura]

On January 6, 2016 at 0:12 PM, happy atheist said:

The Duggar Aviation thread is making a lot of people uncomfortable. I mean seriously, burner phones?

We can't control our users' offsite behavior, and we don't want to, but this level of stalking is over the top and doesn't make anyone look good. If you simply must continue, discuss it someplace that is not FJ.

If flight information is public, it may be discussed here. If the information is private, it may not.

Do not try to hide the thread in AYTFJ. That forum is for personal topics, not obfuscating your creepy stalking.

The burner phone was to keep possible wackos on FJ from having my real phone number. Jeez. Airport and flight info is public. And a family that puts every nuance of their life on tv would be hard to stalk. Jeez again people. 

[Srilaura]

On January 7, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Whoosh said:

  I just want everyone reading (even if not posting) to be clear that we are talking burner phone apples (FJ members using them to cover their tracks as they "track" the Duggars) and burner phone oranges (attorney explaining why a defense attorney might be wise to use a burner phone when conversing with clients).  Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part there.  Rough day.

Ironically, the ONLY reason I wanted a burner phone is to keep any possible FJ stalkers or pervs from finding or knowing me. Whatever. Dark imaginations are working overtime. 

[Whoosh]

5 minutes ago, Srilaura said:

Ironically, the ONLY reason I wanted a burner phone is to keep any possible FJ stalkers or pervs from finding or knowing me. Whatever. Dark imaginations are working overtime. 

I imagine the Duggars might feel fairly similarly with regard to any possible FJ stalkers or pervs using burner phones to track their movements and exchange information with regard to making contact with them in the real world.  Just saying.  I get that there was no ill intention, I think everyone should try to walk a mile in those shoes.  And if you just believe it shouldn't matter because they are the Duggars - fine, but everyone at FJ won't agree with you there.

[OldFadedStar]

I didn't take the burner phones to be a creepy thing. I took it as a member didn't want their personal number out there on the internet so they were willing to get a cheap phone so they could avoid that.

[Srilaura]

FYI not a burner phone but a burner number. An app. Same one I give out dating, selling on Craig's list, and to clients. I had regular contact with Duggars at the AR state Capitol. No desire for additional contact. And certainly would never have thought of identifying myself as an FJer. Your brand is safe. 

[OldFadedStar]

4 minutes ago, Srilaura said:

FYI not a burner phone but a burner number. An app. Same one I give out dating, selling on Craig's list, and to clients. I had regular contact with Duggars at the AR state Capitol. No desire for additional contact. And certainly would never have thought of identifying myself as an FJer. Your brand is safe. 

This is exactly what I was talking about. I had to be careful who had my personal number when I was overseas because of my job. I didn't want people to call my personal number for business reasons. I wouldn't give my personal number to anyone online. Much easier to cancel my Skype number than to get a new phone number through the japanese cell phone provider.

[Whoosh]

4 minutes ago, Srilaura said:

FYI not a burner phone but a burner number. An app. Same one I give out dating, selling on Craig's list, and to clients. I had regular contact with Duggars at the AR state Capitol. No desire for additional contact. And certainly would never have thought of identifying myself as an FJer. Your brand is safe. 

LOL - whatever.  Not my brand and not my point.  I thought the purpose of the burner phones were so that people could keep in communication with someone who was going out to the airfield when it was thought the Duggars were landing - is that not correct?  I call that real world contact (albeit from some unknown distance hopefully).

1 minute ago, OldFadedStar said:

This is exactly what I was talking about. I had to be careful who had my personal number when I was overseas because of my job. I didn't want people to call my personal number for business reasons. I wouldn't give my personal number to anyone online. Much easier to cancel my Skype number than to get a new phone number through the japanese cell phone provider.

I think we all do understand that, at least I do.  I am not sure I would be comfortable if the conversation about burner NUMBERS had been about me. Maybe everyone else would be fine with it.  Maybe people are fine with others using burner numbers to track their movements and location, but simply don't want people to know their phone number for some reason.  Makes no sense to me, but I don't honestly care enough to think on it any harder.  

[OldFadedStar]

2 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

LOL - whatever.  Not my brand and not my point.  I thought the purpose of the burner phones were so that people could keep in communication with someone who was going out to the airfield when it was thought the Duggars were landing - is that not correct?  I call that real world contact (albeit from some unknown distance hopefully).

Would it be just as creepy if someone gave our their personal number?  The impression i got from the burner phone conversation would be to let someone in that area know that the duggars were there instead of posting it online.