Hey Everyone, Let's Dial Back the Creepiness

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

PSA: If your neighbour is keeping a spreadsheet on your kids, pointing cameras at your house, and coming on your property to check your hydro meter, you might want to call the police.

Yeah, I probably would. But the other neighbors might forgive him, since I was bragging so much about things that weren't true.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Whoosh said:

I just did a search for "burner" and took a quick look at things that popped up before I saw Curious's post.  I hadn't read much at all of that thread before today.  I just want point out to everyone that at least one post that talks about burner phones is entirely unrelated to the topic of this conversation about creepiness.  This is fairly unimportant probably, but I just want people to realize that one poster (maybe more) were discussing the potential benefits of an attorney using a burner phone to communicate with a client.  While that came up in that same thread, it was entirely unrelated to any of the discussions about tracking planes and establishing some kind of potential burner phone network to track the Duggars.  Or whatever that was all about.  This seems fairly obvious to me, but I want to make sure people understand the difference there.  Pointing out that people FJ members are discussing might use burner phones for privacy is entirely different than FJ members using burner phones to.... whatever.  

blah, blah, blah...

it was specifically the discussion of using them for alerts so people could get to the airport irl that is objectionable.

if they were referenced in other contexts that's fine and unrelated to the issue of stalking by taking that thread into the real world.

[Whoosh]

9 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

it was specifically the discussion of using them for alerts so people could get to the airport irl that is objectionable.

if they were referenced in other contexts that's fine and unrelated to the issue of stalking by taking that thread into the real world.

Totally agree and I understand what the topic of this thread is.  Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned that, randomly and coincidentally, burner phones came up in an entirely different context in the aviation thread.  I think I wasn't clear with my post, but my point was that burner phones randomly and coincidentally happened to be mentioned in two entirely different contexts in the same thread.  I just want everyone reading (even if not posting) to be clear that we are talking burner phone apples (FJ members using them to cover their tracks as they "track" the Duggars) and burner phone oranges (attorney explaining why a defense attorney might be wise to use a burner phone when conversing with clients).  Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part there.  Rough day.

[Grimalkin]

@halcionne you are not creepy in any way. You are awesome.

 

      A few years ago my eldest was obsessed with 1D. Her and a friend were determined to figure out where they were staying when they toured here  and contacted every high end hotel in Chicago. They tried to trick the hotels into giving info and spent hours stalking them from afar. I laughed when she told me. I looked at going to the airport the same way. Just acting silly but not really expecting to really see or interact with them.

[iweartanktops]

I am curious about what the difference between going to the airport hoping to see Josh and going to McDonald's hoping to run into VeryGay Greg is. I'm just asking because I have just finished reading the archived threads where on multiple occasions, people spoke of doing this. I remember seeing admins in the threads, and no one voiced concerns. 

As I said earlier, I'm just thinking through this. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, iweartanktops6 said:

I am curious about what the difference between going to the airport hoping to see Josh and going to McDonald's hoping to run into VeryGay Greg is. I'm just asking because I have just finished reading the archived threads where on multiple occasions, people spoke of doing this. I remember seeing admins in the threads, and no one voiced concerns. 

As I said earlier, I'm just thinking through this. 

I've never read those threads so I can't comment specifically but for me any deliberate attempt to seek these people out in real life is crosses a serious line with the exception of attending an official event they are speaking at or whatever.  

If they accepted a gig speaking to the public they don't get to control who that public is so of people want to attend because they would find it amusing that's part of the deal with holding those events.  They advertise to get people to come and they cash the check.

if someone were to be disruptive, rude, or harassing even if it's a public event that's never okay.  The difference is whether they are putting themselves out there at that time to the public.  If yes then people can go and behave civilly and snark all they want after the fact.  

[singsingsing]

59 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yeah, I probably would. But the other neighbors might forgive him, since I was bragging so much about things that weren't true.

They might... if they were insane.

[church_of_dog]

7 hours ago, iweartanktops6 said:

Burner phones? What 

The only kind that get cell service at Black Rock City, of course! 

 

/silly

[VelociRapture]

39 minutes ago, iweartanktops6 said:

I am curious about what the difference between going to the airport hoping to see Josh and going to McDonald's hoping to run into VeryGay Greg is. I'm just asking because I have just finished reading the archived threads where on multiple occasions, people spoke of doing this. I remember seeing admins in the threads, and no one voiced concerns. 

As I said earlier, I'm just thinking through this. 

I've seen a bit of that in the archived threads. My thoughts are that over time the Board culture has gone through various changed and some things that once were ok no longer are. I'm guessing that the threads you saw were before or around the time those specific changes were implemented.

Personally, I think it's fine if you go to an official public event they participate in. I just hope anyone who does seek them out willingly (whether or not I believe it to be in good taste or whether it's borderline stalking or whatever) is smart enough not to mention this site or behave in a rude manner - no one here represents the entire site and it's not ok for everyone to be judged based off the actions of a few.

[gustava]

3 hours ago, halcionne said:

And I am a touch defensive about being considered creepy, but as nosy and weird as I am about fundies, I can't blame people who do find my behavior creepy. I disagree with stalkery, because I haven't engaged any fundies in real life, but again that's my own interpretation of what stalking means. 

You were never, ever creepy.  You didn't stalk.  You posted publicly available information.  Please, please do NOT in any way feel as though you did anything wrong. 

 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

37 minutes ago, church_of_dog said:

The only kind that get cell service at Black Rock City, of course! 

 

/silly

Without my glasses I read that as Detroit Rock City.

 

 

Spoiler

 

[Muskrat]

@halcionneHello Halcionne. I'll introduce myself because I only registered yesterday but I do know who you are in the community from many months of reading on FJ. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to make you feel like a creep either. I made the dry comment about Jim Bob's dry humping episode and how it's socially unacceptable. I don't feel that there is anything wrong with tracking public information available on your computer screen such as the airport's comings and goings. I should have stated that. I've read the aviation thread myself and found it interesting from time to time. I just don't feel that other people should be actively seeking these families out and going all spy crazy like they are in a bad movie or something. That's getting to the same level where people were making contact with the supposed reform centre that Josh was at. It feels dirty.

I wish I could find a 'bouquet of apology flowers' emoji so I could send them to you.

[Fascinated]

Halcionne rocks.  Period.  

[Lynn18]

1 hour ago, church_of_dog said:

The only kind that get cell service at Black Rock City, of course! 

 

/silly

This is exactly what I though!

[nelliebelle1197]

Basically, do what you want on your own time, but don't post it here. There are many of us who would rather not be associated with burner phones and airport races.We shut down the poster who was sitting outside the Maxwell house, sending live reports. No one supported the poster who got arrested because she crashed a Duggar public event with camera pens and recording devices after being explicitly warned that no recording was allowed.  It has never been okay to do that sort of thing and it never will.

I am sure there is a thread on GOMI that will support this behavior.

 

[bayoublues]

I was stalked. What I've seen in the aviation thread is not stalking. Overzealous sometimes, maybe. Stalking? Far from it. 

However, I do believe the owners of this site should be able to control what is being put out for public consumption and how that affects them.

A week after moving to a foreign country, I found myself being stalked. Legit. I had no friends or family nearby and knew nothing of the laws of the country I was in. I went on a date with a cute firefighter but really didn't have interest in pursuing him. 

He had decided, however, after a single [short] date that I was the one. It started out awkward with him leaving a disc in my mailbox [I stupidly let him drop me off rather than walk home that night] containing a 40+ page document about how I was a princess and he was a dragon and it became further convoluted and frightening.  

I thought that was all. Then, the phone calls started. I would get phone calls from this man several times a day and voicemails several minutes long. That really creeped me out. Especially when he told me how easily he could get into my building, etc.

The next weekend, I was enjoying a glass of wine in a cafe and my phone rang. It was him again. I hit the silence button. It happend again and I repeated silencing it. After about 10 times, he sent my some texts about how much he loved me and couldn't live with out me. I ignored it... More came in with ridiculous "love" missives. 

The straw that broke the camel's back was when I received a text that said "I can see you. Pick up the phone and stop ignoring me." Holy hell did my stomach hit the floor. I was in a large square and there were people and vehicles, restaurants and small shops everywhere. I tried not to look alarmed but scanned the are looking for him. Finally, I saw him, sitting alone in his car, parked on the inside of the square, just staring at me. He texted again and told me he knew I'd seen him. 

I ended up being VERY lucky because I had inadvertently chosen to have my wine at an American bar that was owned by a former NFLer. Well, I told them what was happening and broke down and started crying.  I was fluent in the native language as well, but he told me he was American and not to worry. The bar owner and his massive bartender walked to where I had spotted him.  One just stared at him while the other told him if he ever tried to contact me again or even so much as looked in my direction, or came into his bar, he would greatly regret it.After that , I had no problems but never felt comfortable in my own home or neighborhood the whole time I lived there. 

There was a plus side to the events-- one guy I met at the bar that evening ended up becoming one of the loves of my life. The only reason it didn't work out was because of distance and where was had to work etc. We even had the same first name. I was so grateful to have had him there and knew that I'd be ok.

Sorry for the tome, however, I think stalking is thrown about a bit too often. When someone is really being stalked it is a fear that is all-encompassing and can destroy your life. 

Again, FJ has the absolute right to control what is posted here, no doubt. I have run public fora and it's a tough job and you don't want to end up on the wrong side of the law. I understand the management's concerns over the matter but I also want to make it clear that what I've read does not fit the lable of stalking. Were some perhaps a bit overzealous? Maybe but that is their culture, they put themselves out for entertainment and public consumption. I was a 22 year old girl, trying to complete an amazing internship opportunity with aboslutely no support and receiving [not very well disguised] death threats.

/rant

[Sorry, I'm not too nitpicky really this is just one of those "things" lol]

[Whoosh]

First to state the obvious - the admin team is responsible for the rules.  I personally think they do a great job with this large and active a community with balancing the need to keep things within the bounds of legality and some form of reason with the goal of having this be a largely community lead forum which values free speech.  I am sure some people don't agree with me on that, but that is actually a really difficult balance to strike and I have been quite impressed with how it is handled here.  In terms of what has happened historically in these types of situations, I would personally listen to the thoughts and opinions of people who were there to see what went down overall over the past 10+ (or even several years), rather than focus on a few specific events or threads.

Second issue I wanted to just say a bit about the question of would is this behavior we are talking about XXXXX.  I am calling it that because I think different people are using different criteria when they are talking about this and that may well be leading to confusion that looks like disagreement.  We can talk about right or wrong (and we will have varied opinions there) and then we can talk about legal vs illegal.  Without being at all committal on this situation, it is my opinion that the law is far behind the internet and we will eventually see some new laws with respect to some of this stuff (not saying I think anything here will ever be illegal, but for example, those other tracking sites may well be illegal some day, so....).

In short, if I can say I would possibly feel justified reporting a given activity to the police were it to happen to me or that i need to hide my identity with a burner phone to feel comfortable with what I am doing, I would exercise a lot of caution before doing it to someone else (repulsive hypocritical celebrity or not).

To wrap up where I started, the rules is the rules.

 

 

[halcionne]

4 hours ago, Muskrat said:

@halcionneHello Halcionne. I'll introduce myself because I only registered yesterday but I do know who you are in the community from many months of reading on FJ. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to make you feel like a creep either. I made the dry comment about Jim Bob's dry humping episode and how it's socially unacceptable. I don't feel that there is anything wrong with tracking public information available on your computer screen such as the airport's comings and goings. I should have stated that. I've read the aviation thread myself and found it interesting from time to time. I just don't feel that other people should be actively seeking these families out and going all spy crazy like they are in a bad movie or something. That's getting to the same level where people were making contact with the supposed reform centre that Josh was at. It feels dirty.

I wish I could find a 'bouquet of apology flowers' emoji so I could send them to you.

Hey you didn't make me feel like a creep at all! The wall of text I posted earlier was an attempt to say...something, since I was kind of a steward of the aviation thread. But I'm having one of those days where I can't seem to form coherent sentences. 

@Fascinated: No, you! 

[InThePrayerCloset]

11 hours ago, NotAnIncubator said:

The only mention of a burner phone I saw was in a discussion about talking to lawyers in the Aviation thread unless this was discussed in another thread or in AYTFJ.

I'm not being snarky or anything I just genuinely am curious where they talked about burner phones in relation to the people going to the airports.

Yes i mentioned that I was an attorney and would be paranoid about discussing confidential and potentially criminal matters over the telephone due to interception, even if they were using burner phones. I put this kind of attorney confidentiality concern as a reason why there may be so many flights to Rockford atm. (though i doubt those flights were used for transporting his legal term)

I didn't advocate the stake out of the Rockford airport or the use of burners as a clandestine communication method amongst FJ members....

[gustava]

9 hours ago, Whoosh said:

First to state the obvious - the admin team is responsible for the rules.  I personally think they do a great job with this large and active a community with balancing the need to keep things within the bounds of legality and some form of reason with the goal of having this be a largely community lead forum which values free speech.

[ALM7]

8 hours ago, bayoublues said:

I was stalked. What I've seen in the aviation thread is not stalking. Overzealous sometimes, maybe. Stalking? Far from it. 

bayoublues, I want you to know, I'm so sorry you had to experience that nightmare, I can't even imagine the horror.  

8 hours ago, bayoublues said:

However, I do believe the owners of this site should be able to control what is being put out for public consumption and how that affects them.

I agree completely, the owner, as with any enterprise, must oversee the direction of the operation. FJ stats show over 7800 members. The traffic of unregistered guests must be enormous as well. That is quite a responsibility.

That being said, let me address your observation of  "What I've seen in the aviation thread is not stalking."  I think we must look at the broader picture. It may not be this thread or the next that's the issue, it's about the possibility of that fine line that may be crossed. That line, if crossed, could result in serious consequences.

As I mentioned, FJ has tremendous traffic.  The odds are, some may not be like our grandma lol. Stalkers, just like most perpetrators, have a beginning behavior, and an end game. Do I think the posters that want to catch a personal glimpse of a Duggar have questionable motives? No, it was something that was exciting for them. I imagine they are harmless (like our grandma).  Which leads me to a good point you brought up....

9 hours ago, bayoublues said:

I understand the management's concerns over the matter but I also want to make it clear that what I've read does not fit the lable of stalking. Were some perhaps a bit overzealous? Maybe but that is their culture, they put themselves out for entertainment and public consumption.

I'm assuming you're referring to the Duggars, and other public figures. Indeed, they have in most cases, made themselves available to the public. However; they are entitled to be cautious, and concerned for their well being.  They have no real way of knowing the intention of others. As I mentioned earlier, a stalker always has a first, and then a first play, and so on....

Again bayoublues, I'm so sorry that happened to you.

For the record...I'm not a fan of fundamentalism, I abhor extremism within any arena.  I feel we beat them at their game through voting responsibly. Supporting causes that expose their danger to society, using our judicial system to challenge them etc. 

[SassyPants]

14 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I've seen a bit of that in the archived threads. My thoughts are that over time the Board culture has gone through various changed and some things that once were ok no longer are. I'm guessing that the threads you saw were before or around the time those specific changes were implemented.

Personally, I think it's fine if you go to an official public event they participate in. I just hope anyone who does seek them out willingly (whether or not I believe it to be in good taste or whether it's borderline stalking or whatever) is smart enough not to mention this site or behave in a rude manner - no one here represents the entire site and it's not ok for everyone to be judged based off the actions of a few.

Wait...I thought the whole point of board culture is that people had to learn to fit in, and not that culture changed as you described.

FWIW- I always thought that a stagnant board culture was unattainable, but the message this past spring and summer was pretty clear that members needed to evolve, and not the board culture.

[Lamoria]

17 hours ago, Flyinthesoup said:

I have a vested interest in aviation, on a few different fronts and have for many, many years..  My participation in the aviation thread was two fold, 1) sport.....kind of like a game and where's Waldo and 2) because the Duggars have lied so much, I wanted to know if Josh is really at that facility and if yes, was he getting special treatment and getting out, etc.

Having said that, for those interested, here is an article from 2010 that's very interesting on whether the tracking of planes is public or private.

Flightaware is a privately owned company, accessing public information.  What I don't know is, if the Duggars paid Flightaware to have their information blocked, OR, if this was a government issued move.  If other companies are accessing public information, it's conceivable that the Duggar's paid to have them block their information, since it appears most people were using the Flightaware site.  It's possible the Duggar's applied for the block because of safety and or privacy reasons.

I am glad to know there is still a bit of a delay in information with 'real time' tracking of flight information, for obvious safety reasons.  

 

I want to say I agree with Fly with this. I also want to say, as someone who DID go to the airport and watch the plane land, I don't consider myself creepy. Speaking only for myself, would I have confronted anyone if I saw them? Absolutely not. I said in a past posting that I am shy in real life, and that would probably terrify me. Would I take pictures? Maybe. I see it as a where's waldo situation too.

That being said, I also agree that now since the information is private on flightaware, it isn't something I would do again or try to find another way to find their plane. When the information was public, it was fair game in my opinion. I use flightaware for a lot of personal things, some times I track a flight a family member is on, just to make sure it got there ok, or else sometimes I just genuinely like watching flight traffic over my area to see where the planes are coming from and going to.

There have also been plenty of times I went on the highway to watch plane's land, heck, before computers and things like that it was what we did for fun some nights!]

Edit: Also, the burner phone thing was first spoken about in November, (not necessarily directed towards Mods- read above, I agree with now that their info is private, it stops, yadda yadda) but maybe you people who take such offense to it should have come out of the woodwork sooner rather then latching onto it and calling people from that forum creepy. I'm not trying to be a brat here, I understand that is a stated opinion, but it isn't like that forum is brand new  and all these things happened yesterday.

[singsingsing]

8 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Wait...I thought the whole point of board culture is that people had to learn to fit in, and not that culture changed as you described.

FWIW- I always thought that a stagnant board culture was unattainable, but the message this past spring and summer was pretty clear that members needed to evolve, and not the board culture.

It's not either/or. The culture has changed, and it will continue to change. It's inevitable. Yes, the onus is on new members to learn how to fit in, but the board culture will naturally evolve over time as well.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, SassyPants said:

Wait...I thought the whole point of board culture is that people had to learn to fit in, and not that culture changed as you described.

FWIW- I always thought that a stagnant board culture was unattainable, but the message this past spring and summer was pretty clear that members needed to evolve, and not the board culture.

All group dynamics evolve over time, a stagnant board or any other kind of culture is unattainable.   

It's been pointed out repeatedly (especially last spring-summer when this was a huge discussion) about how FJ has changed over the years.  There have been changes in ownership since many of those other things took place and changes in membership.  Things evolve or they die; imo the evolution has been a marked improvement.  

The comments from that time about new members needing to adapt to the culture and not expect an culture to change was in reference to new people joining and immediately wanting current established environment tweaked for their sensibilities.  

Culture changing over time =/= someone joining Tuesday and by Thursday expecting people to stop using the F word and wanting to collect a love offering to send to the Dillards so they can extend their griftcation.*

*hyperbole.