Hey Everyone, Let's Dial Back the Creepiness

[Imagine20]

If burner phones are needed for some reason, I think that goes beyond the scope of what FJ is about. We're not a fan site and we're not a paparazzi site. 

[Muskrat]

It's like Jim Bob's dry humping episode. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Some things just aren't socially acceptable.

[EmCatlyn]

This is an interesting thread because it raises questions about how much privacy anyone can expect.  Without disagreeing that sometimes the Duggar-watching may cross a line into stalking, I want to suggest that the central motive for Duggar-watching among many FJers is not (just) to snark but to find out the truth behind what the Duggars present as "reality." 

The Duggars have created a myth about themselves, and their public statements and publicized actions are all in service of this myth.  We know the myth is false; we don't trust the information they give, and we are constantly seeking to prove, disprove or expand on the bits of information they give the public.

It is because they put themselves forward and make statements which we know are, at best, distortions of the truth that I think the people who follow the Duggar comings and goings closely are not the same as a neighbor setting up cameras and keeping a spreadsheet to determine a private citizen's comings and goings.  The situation with the  Duggars is a response to their previous actions. For example, in another thread we are constantly trying to figure out where the Dillards are and what they are really doing.  This is because we don't trust their reports about their "missionary" plans and "work."

Suppose I bragged to my neighbor that my kids were better behaved than anyone else's, or that I was composting, recycling and using only solar energy, and told the entire neighborhood that they should look to me and mine for an example of the right way to live. My neighbor might be forgiven for keeping a spreadsheet of my kids' misbehaviors and setting up cameras to document whether I really did recycle and compost, and maybe even check my electric meter to make sure my energy consumption was low.  It would be annoying, but I would have opened the door to such scrutiny by my bragging and claiming that my family was doing things "better" when in fact there was reason to doubt the truth.

The whole plane tracking and airport watching stuff has centered on figuring out where Josh is and whether or not he is really in rehab or hiding out.  Since the Duggars made the announcement that he was in rehab but gave no further information, and since we know the Duggars lie, identitying where Josh probably was and keeping watch on the relevant airport was a way of checking the truth of Duggar claims.  

That being said, FJ certainly should not be identified with stalking or harassing these people or those associated with them. So I am not arguing against any decisions the administration may make.  I am just noting that there is a difference between "stalking" out of fascination with an innocent object of attention and "keeping close watch" to determine whether or not public statements by a family that actively seeks publicity are accurate.  

[SassyPants]

58 minutes ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

I would argue that, if the now-adult children were under 18 when their lives started being filmed (and they are not, like Josh, overt dirtbags in their own right), they are entitled to a bit more privacy and consideration.

For example: Jana and John-David were 14 when the first special aired in '02. Even if JB and M had all of the kids vote yes or no to having a TV special made, they were children. They weren't old enough to drive. By normal standards, they weren't old enough to consent to most adult activities. They didn't choose this life for themselves.

I'm all for criticizing the belief system and holding Jim Bob, Michelle, and Josh responsible for their family being a bit fucked up, but the rest of them didn't have a choice. They were born into this and didn't have the freedom to protest. Most of them are gracious enough to be pleasant with fans in public, and that's nice of them...But I really wonder how many of them, as adults, would have chosen the life they were given.

If they started acting like the Palin family in public, starting or engaging in melees at bars, or were in the habit of being arrested, that would be worthy of critique. And the adult Duggar children don't get a free pass if they say objectionable shit. But for the various Duggar offspring, their greatest fault is being born into the Duggar family. They don't deserve to have every move tracked.

The adults still at home have a choice now- the law guarantees it. At this point, when you're over 18 yo (26 next week for 2 of these folks), you've made a choice not to live a life outside of Daddyville. 

[NotAnIncubator]

51 minutes ago, Imagine20 said:

If burner phones are needed for some reason, I think that goes beyond the scope of what FJ is about. We're not a fan site and we're not a paparazzi site. 

The only mention of a burner phone I saw was in a discussion about talking to lawyers in the Aviation thread unless this was discussed in another thread or in AYTFJ.

I'm not being snarky or anything I just genuinely am curious where they talked about burner phones in relation to the people going to the airports.

[Walking Cat Bed]

Yeah, Jill didn't have the freedom to hug her boyfriend/fiance when they were reunited in an airport without her mother being ugly and judgmental. 

They're adults, yes, but they're stunted. They don't know anything else. All they've known is living at home with Mama and Daddy and eleventybillion siblings. It's going to take a while and some real-world exposure (that isn't carefully arranged to minimize unpredictable interactions or experiences) for any of them to move on. 

The fact that only three of the adult children have married and obviously left home is not the fault of Jana, John-David, Jinger, Joe, Josiah, or Joy -- it's the fault of their controlling parents.

[gustava]

29 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

That being said, FJ certainly should not be identified with stalking or harassing these people or those associated with them. So I am not arguing against any decisions the administration may make.  I am just noting that there is a difference between "stalking" out of fascination with an innocent object of attention and "keeping close watch" to determine whether or not public statements by a family that actively seeks publicity are accurate.  

The Duggar Aviation thread presented factual information which was legitimate public information.  Going to the airport to attempt to view them was, in my opinion, also legitimate; it was no different that if I wanted to see Kimye and went to the airport to attempt to see them. 

However, I would remind FJers that one of us was arrested, based on information posted on this site.  And our behavior has the potential to damage the reputation of this site.

I, for one, want to tell Halcionne that I know she/he had no intentions of stalking and that many of us appreciated the effort and information.

Now, I think, we do need to consider the possibility that we have done some stalking and that we might have jeopardized FJ.....and cross our fingers that some FJer can locate another flight track option.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, Walking Cat Bed said:

Yeah, Jill didn't have the freedom to hug her boyfriend/fiance when they were reunited in an airport without her mother being ugly and judgmental. 

They're adults, yes, but they're stunted. They don't know anything else. All they've known is living at home with Mama and Daddy and eleventybillion siblings. It's going to take a while and some real-world exposure (that isn't carefully arranged to minimize unpredictable interactions or experiences) for any of them to move on. 

The fact that only three of the adult children have married and obviously left home is not the fault of Jana, John-David, Jinger, Joe, Josiah, or Joy -- it's the fault of their controlling parents.

Yes.  While I agree there is a point where adults need to be proactive and take responsibility for remaining in this kind of situation, that point is different for everyone and depends on how severe the psychological damage.  And some people are never strong enough to do that because they were effectively crippled mentally/psychologically.

But even without that anyone who has ever lived in an bad environment and had the desire and mental tools to get out knows that doing so with no money and no way to earn any is unbelievably daunting.

To expect that this is all on them because they happened to hit 18 is ridiculous.  Most 18 year olds would be in dire straights if they were to venture out with no cash, no job, no skills...and these kids are way less prepared than the average.

 

[choralcrusader8613]

I would just like to apologize for calling the move the "safest" option. I wasn't thinking straight and made myself look like a fool. Looking at this with clear eyes, I can easily see the issues with it.

[2manyKidzzz]

So far the activity on the aviation thread has been fun and actually pretty funny that the plane can be tracked. The few that ran to the airport reported being discreet. And, now  that the administrators here have  asked for certain behaviors, that is  all good too. These people did put themselves out there and in the age of the internet, you cannot predict what people can find out about you. All here seem willing to cooperate with the administrators requests.

I think it's all good. I find the flights to Rockford  to be a complete riot. I guess it is good flight hours logged for good old JD. 

[Kira]

56 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

The Duggars have created a myth about themselves, and their public statements and publicized actions are all in service of this myth.  We know the myth is false; we don't trust the information they give, and we are constantly seeking to prove, disprove or expand on the bits of information they give the public.

It is because they put themselves forward and make statements which we know are, at best, distortions of the truth that I think the people who follow the Duggar comings and goings closely are not the same as a neighbor setting up cameras and keeping a spreadsheet to determine a private citizen's comings and goings.  The situation with the  Duggars is a response to their previous actions. For example, in another thread we are constantly trying to figure out where the Dillards are and what they are really doing.  This is because we don't trust their reports about their "missionary" plans and "work."

Suppose I bragged to my neighbor that my kids were better behaved than anyone else's, or that I was composting, recycling and using only solar energy, and told the entire neighborhood that they should look to me and mine for an example of the right way to live. My neighbor might be forgiven for keeping a spreadsheet of my kids' misbehaviors and setting up cameras to document whether I really did recycle and compost, and maybe even check my electric meter to make sure my energy consumption was low.  It would be annoying, but I would have opened the door to such scrutiny by my bragging and claiming that my family was doing things "better" when in fact there was reason to doubt the truth.

 

Your neighbor would be crazy to take things that far because you bragged about doing things better. LOL

 

 

[2manyKidzzz]

I was always careful not to brag about my children. It can come back to haunt you, for sure. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Muskrat said:

It's like Jim Bob's dry humping episode. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Some things just aren't socially acceptable.

this whole post needs to be stitched on a sampler, but I'm thinking I want to start working the bolded into my real life conversations...matter of fact like that know what I'm talking about?  Oh you want to have someone else clock you out at work?  Well, that's just like Jim Bob's dry humping episode, isn't it?  Like it makes sense.

 

[Imagine20]

44 minutes ago, NotAnIncubator said:

The only mention of a burner phone I saw was in a discussion about talking to lawyers in the Aviation thread unless this was discussed in another thread or in AYTFJ.

I'm not being snarky or anything I just genuinely am curious where they talked about burner phones in relation to the people going to the airports.

I got it up thread here.  I never read the posts mentioning burner phones, so that's why my statement was qualified with an "if."

Unrelated to that above: 

One thing we need to remember is that while we hide behind user names, we leave hints of our identities in our posts.  If we give too much, our anonymity is gone and that can possibly compromise the identities of others in the group depending on the situation.  This goes for any place online where we think we're anonymous. Sometimes we forget this. 

[halcionne]

I don't feel like a stalker, though I do get a kick out of sort of playing with that concept a little bit--I mean, have you seen my avatar? I am curious, perhaps to a fault, about everything these people and what they're up to. They used that plane to hang out with Mike Huckabee and his cronies. They are trying to impose their beliefs on others and influence American politics on local, national, and maybe even international levels, which makes me angry and possibly a bit overinvested. But mostly I'm just curious about their comings and goings so that I can play investigative reporter and entertain myself with some online snarking about these chuckleheads. I don't mean to get self righteous and I hope this isn't coming across that way.

Obviously, everyone has her own opinion about what's creepy and what's not. I don't think reporting where they flew, once they'd landed, is creepy. I had some concerns about reporting flights in progress (because I didn't want them to get freaked out and go private--selfish of me, I know), so I didn't do that very often, but anyone could go to flight aware and see for themselves that a flight was in the air, so even that doesn't bother me. Other people will draw the line somewhere else, and that's fine.

At the end of the day, I stumbled onto a fun website and got some laughs. Also I learned a bit about flying private planes, which is somewhat interesting. And I learned a hell of a lot about just how politically active they are. I could have done all of those things without posting screencaps here, but reading articles or even following their social media isn't as entertaining as documenting their travels and digging around for hard data and seeing it with my own eyeballs.

I'm still not sure how I feel about all of this. I remember when Kate Middleton got papped nude sunbathing on a private patio by a photographer a mile away or something and a discussion i read about how much privacy celebs are entitled to. There was some victim blaming about how she should always assume she's being watched and just not go topless, which is not cool at all, imo. idk idk I'm going to have to chew on this for quite a while.

And I am a touch defensive about being considered creepy, but as nosy and weird as I am about fundies, I can't blame people who do find my behavior creepy. I disagree with stalkery, because I haven't engaged any fundies in real life, but again that's my own interpretation of what stalking means. 

I'm a bit under the weather and I'm too out of it to really participate in this thread right now. But I am reading and thinking.

[singsingsing]

PSA: If your neighbour is keeping a spreadsheet on your kids, pointing cameras at your house, and coming on your property to check your hydro meter, you might want to call the police.

[VelociRapture]

Popping in briefly. @halcionne, I don't think you're creepy. The aviation thread was never my thing, but I can see why others might be interested. I never really saw any issues in that thread before someone actually went to an airport to watch for them. That did leave me feeling a bit uncomfortable - as have other things said around the forums. 

Happy, thanks for addressing this. I have no doubt that intentions were completely innocent and people were just curious, but I'm glad to see this sort of activity addressed and boundaries for site activity clarified.

And now I'm out again. Bye Felicia!

[Curious]

 
Hi All,

For those asking this is where the talk about burner phones starts: http://www.freejinger.org/topic/24127-duggar-aviation-part-2/?do=findComment&comment=1066702

It seems like there is some discussion about this stuff before and after that particular comment, so you can sort out for yourselves how much you want to read.

Posting about Flightaware which is PUBLIC information is fine.   If someone wants to send in FOIA requests for Duggar Aviation and post about them here, that is also fine.

Posting information that can only be found with subscription sites is considered private information on FJ. It is my understanding that there are sites that essentially pull information that *should* be (and is meant to be) private and publish that information on the internet.    These types of sites and the info they contain are an example of what are NOT allowed to be posted.

We (Free Jinger) have no intention of telling our members what they can and cannot do on their free time.  Fly your Duggar Freak Flag all you want...just not on Free Jinger.

Free Jinger is a privately owned site.  I do not want the reputation of this site (or myself) to be of a site that allows things that are creepy and cross normal boundaries.

It's clear by the Duggar's actions that they do not want the public tracking the airplane.  That is their choice and it should be respected and it WILL be respected on FJ.  We have a rule about private information that has been in place for years.

If a blogger takes their facebook private, even if one of our members is still a fb friend with them, they are not allowed to directly post from that (now) private facebook.  They are free to paraphrase, however.  

So TL;DR:

1) Legitimately public information (Flightaware) may be posted here;

2) Information obtained from an FOIA request can be posted here;

3) Information that is private, subscription or from free sites that intentionally skirt the "rules" is NOT allowed to be posted here;

4) You can do whatever you want in your real life free time.  However, you can't post a detailed description of how you stalked your prey on FJ;

5. Please act like normal adults and don't make me make yet another rule regarding site conduct.

Thanks you and goodnight

[happy atheist]

3 minutes ago, Curious said:

5. Please act like normal adults.

Pretty please.

[Cleopatra7]

I was never interested in the aviation thread, since I figured the Duggars were always flying off to meet people just as dull as they were. The only mystery is where Josh has been stashed for all these months and I think that will probably be solved in a few weeks once he's freed from Jesus rehab. I don't think the original thread was inappropriate, since the flight data was public, but I can see how talk of burner phones and going to airports could put the site as a whole in legal problems. 

[Flyinthesoup]

I have a vested interest in aviation, on a few different fronts and have for many, many years..  My participation in the aviation thread was two fold, 1) sport.....kind of like a game and where's Waldo and 2) because the Duggars have lied so much, I wanted to know if Josh is really at that facility and if yes, was he getting special treatment and getting out, etc.

Having said that, for those interested, here is an article from 2010 that's very interesting on whether the tracking of planes is public or private.

Flightaware is a privately owned company, accessing public information.  What I don't know is, if the Duggars paid Flightaware to have their information blocked, OR, if this was a government issued move.  If other companies are accessing public information, it's conceivable that the Duggar's paid to have them block their information, since it appears most people were using the Flightaware site.  It's possible the Duggar's applied for the block because of safety and or privacy reasons.

I am glad to know there is still a bit of a delay in information with 'real time' tracking of flight information, for obvious safety reasons.  

 

[Whoosh]

I just did a search for "burner" and took a quick look at things that popped up before I saw Curious's post.  I hadn't read much at all of that thread before today.  I just want point out to everyone that at least one post that talks about burner phones is entirely unrelated to the topic of this conversation about creepiness.  This is fairly unimportant probably, but I just want people to realize that one poster (maybe more) were discussing the potential benefits of an attorney using a burner phone to communicate with a client.  While that came up in that same thread, it was entirely unrelated to any of the discussions about tracking planes and establishing some kind of potential burner phone network to track the Duggars.  Or whatever that was all about.  This seems fairly obvious to me, but I want to make sure people understand the difference there.  Pointing out that people FJ members are discussing might use burner phones for privacy is entirely different than FJ members using burner phones to.... whatever.  

blah, blah, blah...

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Kira said:

Your neighbor would be crazy to take things that far because you bragged about doing things better. LOL

 

 

I didn't say the neighbor wouldn't be crazy.  I said that s/he "might be forgiven."  

Big difference.   

It would be overkill but one could understand the fascination.  Mrs. Kravitz, the nosy neighbor on Bewitched, is a wacko pest, but after a few "odd" things happen, you might forgive her for her obsession with Samantha's house.

Fortunately I have never bragged about my kids and I do not claim to compost or use solar energy. (I do recycle.). And my neighbors content themselves with snooping without cameras (that I know of).

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, halcionne said:

 <snip>

And I am a touch defensive about being considered creepy, but as nosy and weird as I am about fundies, I can't blame people who do find my behavior creepy. I disagree with stalkery, because I haven't engaged any fundies in real life, but again that's my own interpretation of what stalking means. 

<snip>

Just want to say that I don't think it is stalking to monitor the airplane flights of a group of people who put themselves out in public.  

It is my opinion that the Duggars were probably aware that the plane's comings and goings were being watched and either didn't care or actually liked the attention.  The reason they have removed themselves from Flightaware monitoring at this point may be that Rockford Watch's attention was not the kind they wanted or they are planning some flying they don't want monitored or . . .  Who knows.  My point is that they didn't seem to mind until now.

Anyway, we must always be careful not to go overboard with our curiosity, but I don't think what you did was overboard.  JMHO

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

5 hours ago, notfundy said:

So perhaps this is an unpopular opinion but I sincerely believe there was nothing wrong with tracking the flight plans or even going to the airport - lots of people watch planes, and if you are a reality "star" you have waived much of your right to privacy.    

 

Respecting all opinions, I am really amazed that people even have the time to do that. Between my full-time job, studying for the CPA, taking care of my house and my headship (LOL), having a semi-functional personal life (nothing fancy, just working out, occasional friends visits, etc.), some days I barely have time to go pee (if you excuse the language), let alone tracking some random at the airport!