Josh goes home for the holidays

[EmCatlyn]

10 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

Didn't TLC say that Josh would no longer be seen on the show?

Yes.  But I could still see them doing a special about Josh coming home.  It would not be about Josh but about other people's reactions and preparations.  Josh might not even appear in person, just be talked about.

I think TLC will do whatever they think will get them audience...  Except switching to good programming.

[JenniferJuniper]

26 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yes.  But I could still see them doing a special about Josh coming home.  It would not be about Josh but about other people's reactions and preparations.  Josh might not even appear in person, just be talked about.

I think TLC will do whatever they think will get them audience...  Except switching to good programming.

I never thought they'd film Anna talking in detail about "the betrayal", but they did.

I can't see them passing up a chance to deal with "the New Josh".

During the first airing of the first J&J special they used 1/2 hour worth of time to plug new seasons for other shows.  I can see them doing that again.  It's a way of avoiding any sponsorship problems for a Josh-focused show while shoring up ratings for shows that are fully sponsored.

[Mothership]

Didn't get a chance to see the video before it was taken down.

I trust the regular FJer's opinions about whether it was a Josh sighting, but I do find it REALLY interesting that it was taken down.  Ohhhh.... I do love a good conspiracy.  Is it possible that the flight by JD wasn't to drop Anna and the kids off, but to pick Josh up?

 

 

[Nikedagain?]

1 hour ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I can't see them passing up a chance to deal with "the New Josh".

 

Exactly. 

 

[Jingerbread]

2 hours ago, Dandruff said:

Didn't TLC say that Josh would no longer be seen on the show?

He's not on 19KAC since there is no more 19KAC.  Josh Duggar: The Homecoming is a new show.  I can see it now: A strip of paper tape across the driveway closest to the house, a Big Mac and the family on the porch, the black SUV he's in stops at the far end of the drive, and he gets out, sees the Big Mac, and Chariots of Fire starts just as the video slows.  Jubilant Duggar faces, the camera carefully tries to avoid Anna, though we get a glimpse of her grimacing.  Josh races so fast toward the Big Mac that he stumbles a few times, but like a non-quitter, he gets up and continues toward the prize.  As he pummels through the tape, the Duggars break out on ecstatic cheers, and his grubby hands reaches the burger.  We get a still-slow-mo shot of him taking a big bite and his eyes close in orgasmic ecstasy.  The music faints to silent and the show slows to still.

It opens again with talking heads that breaks to a quick shot of Josh in the prayer closet, then back to the talking heads, and he's oh so sorry, but we can tell he's only sorry he got caught.

[singsingsing]

1 hour ago, Mothership said:

Didn't get a chance to see the video before it was taken down.

I trust the regular FJer's opinions about whether it was a Josh sighting, but I do find it REALLY interesting that it was taken down.  Ohhhh.... I do love a good conspiracy.  Is it possible that the flight by JD wasn't to drop Anna and the kids off, but to pick Josh up?

There was other speculation about the video, too. It started a giant rumour that Joseph Duggar and Carlin Bates had something going because they were sitting close beside each other on the couch. It's possible Amy took it down because someone was uncomfortable with the courtship speculation.

[halcionne]

The video got saved here: 

http://duggars.tumblr.com/post/135971749230/our-christmas-present-to-the-duggar-family-was-a#post-notes

 

[Bad Wolf]

They love to put everything on line, then get upset when people speculate. Practice a little privacy, and people will have nothing to talk about. Oh yes, then the public might forget about you. Can't have that. 

[halcionne]

1 minute ago, Bad Wolf said:

They love to put everything on line, then get upset when people speculate. Practice a little privacy, and people will have nothing to talk about. Oh yes, then the public might forget about you. Can't have that. 

Yeah. I was thinking about how much mileage the Duggars have gotten out of Amy's social media "leaks" over the years--no doubt it's a lot. And if Dillon is the tabloids' source, he's doing a lot to keep them in the front of gossip consumers' minds. Jim Bob should thank them both.

[Jingerbread]

Since when has courtship speculation been a bad thing to the Duggars?

[Buzzard]

2 hours ago, Nikedagain? said:

Exactly. 

 

Theres no money in airing Josh.  Without advertisers theres no point in putting together a show.  They could run re runs of just about anything and make more money than a commercial free joshyfest

[Mercer]

I do hope Josh is keeping in regular contact with Anna and the kids. If this family unit is going to work, he and Anna are going to have to address the underlying issues in their marriage, and the kids need to keep a connection with their dad. Isolating Josh isn't going to help him learn to be a better man or to have healthy relationships. 

I'm by no means a Josh fan and I think his behavior has been reprehensible, but separating out a family member and keeping them away doesn't fix what was wrong. If Anna is going to stay with him and they want to move forward together as a family, maintaining connection is important even when it's difficult.

[nastyhobbitses]

38 minutes ago, Mercer said:

I do hope Josh is keeping in regular contact with Anna and the kids. If this family unit is going to work, he and Anna are going to have to address the underlying issues in their marriage, and the kids need to keep a connection with their dad. Isolating Josh isn't going to help him learn to be a better man or to have healthy relationships. 

I'm by no means a Josh fan and I think his behavior has been reprehensible, but separating out a family member and keeping them away doesn't fix what was wrong. If Anna is going to stay with him and they want to move forward together as a family, maintaining connection is important even when it's difficult.

I'd agree with you if Josh's behavior didn't involve molesting children the same age as his daughter, having extremely aggressive, rough, exploitative sex with a porn star, and paying thousands of dollars to a website to find him women to engage in these behaviors with. Anna and the children will be far better off without him. He is a danger to them, emotionally and physically.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

3 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I'd agree with you if Josh's behavior didn't involve molesting children the same age as his daughter, having extremely aggressive, rough, exploitative sex with a porn star, and paying thousands of dollars to a website to find him women to engage in these behaviors with. Anna and the children will be far better off without him. He is a danger to them, emotionally and physically.

There is NOTHING to prove that attacking his sister (who was NOT the same age as his youngest daughter, by the way) was nothing more than opportunity based. In fact, the fact that he sought sexual partners around his age shows that he is NOT a child predator. 

And, unless there's proof that he has done ANYTHING to any of his children or Anna, you CANNOT state that he's a danger to them. And, it's not fair to any of the family members for you to paint them as victims of they aren't. 

[nastyhobbitses]

4 minutes ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

There is NOTHING to prove that attacking his sister (who was NOT the same age as his youngest daughter, by the way) was nothing more than opportunity based. In fact, the fact that he sought sexual partners around his age shows that he is NOT a child predator. 

And, unless there's proof that he has done ANYTHING to any of his children or Anna, you CANNOT state that he's a danger to them. And, it's not fair to any of the family members for you to paint them as victims of they aren't. 

I will concede that I'm in no position to say that they're victims without proof, but he did completely fuck up his wife's life and turned his whole family's life upside down by being a selfish creep, whether he attacked them or not. And from his reaction when his indiscretions were revealed, it's safe to say that he's more sorry that he got caught than for how he affected others. And doing some carpentry at Jesus Rehab isn't going to fix him. It didn't fix him after he assaulted his sisters, and it won't fix him now. And actual therapy is not going to happen. He'll just learn to be sneakier with his behavior. And we'll just get another scandal, another fauxpology, another stint at Jesus Betty Ford, and another cringe-worthy special. I can agree with/concede to your point about victimization, but I maintain that Anna and the children would be better off without him. Maybe he'll never attack them, maybe he never touched them, but he'll just cause them more heartache and upheaval with his selfishness. Time to cut him loose.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

9 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I will concede that I'm in no position to say that they're victims without proof, but he did completely fuck up his wife's life and turned his whole family's life upside down by being a selfish creep, whether he attacked them or not. And from his reaction when his indiscretions were revealed, it's safe to say that he's more sorry that he got caught than for how he affected others. And doing some carpentry at Jesus Rehab isn't going to fix him. It didn't fix him after he assaulted his sisters, and it won't fix him now. And actual therapy is not going to happen. He'll just learn to be sneakier with his behavior. And we'll just get another scandal, another fauxpology, another stint at Jesus Betty Ford, and another cringe-worthy special. I can agree with/concede to your point about victimization, but I maintain that Anna and the children would be better off without him. Maybe he'll never attack them, maybe he never touched them, but he'll just cause them more heartache and upheaval with his selfishness. Time to cut him loose.

There are thousands of people ever year who fuck up their marriages. It does not mean they're bad parents and should be kept away from their children.

It's also not really your place to determine how he's feeling about the whole situation, or even how anyone else in the family is feeling. You've seen what they've wanted you to see, but that is a very carefully constructed mask. Unless you're actually friends with the Duggars and have spent ample amounts of time with them, you can't do anything more than SPECULATE on how any of them have handled the situation. And, frankly, as far as we know, Josh may or may not actually be at the Christian camp. He could actually be receiving real help, but they're portraying it as a "Christian rehabilitation" for the sake of their image. While their image may be tainted with people like us, they don't care. They're concerned about their image with the people who run in their circles and people who could be "converted by their ministries." We're heathens to them, so our opinions are useless. The opinions that matter are those of the leghumpers. If the leghumpers are happy with the idea of him receiving Christian help, then they'll have him "receive Christian help," even if he's not.

For that matter, Anna and his family may have kicked Josh to the curb, claiming he's at "a Christian rehabilitation" in hopes of saving face. They may have decided that it was better to side with Anna than with Josh in this case, rationalizing that if he wasn't saved last time he wont be this time. 

We can't know what is going on in that family, beyond what they've shown, and it's completely ridiculous to imagine that you even have the slightest idea. 

[Mercer]

Whether Anna would be better off without Josh is kind of a moot point, because she has already decided to take him back. Eventually Josh will be rejoining the family, and internet commentators wishing him away is not going to change that. That being the case, maintaining family connections and working on addressing the issues together is going to be more beneficial to the family than just pretending Josh doesn't exist for a few months and expecting things to magically get better. Reality is, Josh is coming home eventually, and that transition is going to be less traumatic for all involved if they work to prepare for it in the meantime.

[Mothership]

5 hours ago, halcionne said:

The video got saved here: 

http://duggars.tumblr.com/post/135971749230/our-christmas-present-to-the-duggar-family-was-a#post-notes

 

Thanks for sharing the link.  I agree with other posters--that isn't Josh.  I admit that I took the time to watch it frame by frame.   I think the guy was just ducking out of the shot.  I agree with others that it is more likely the link was taken down because of courtship speculation.   I think the Bates family is more private about courtships these days than the Duggars.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

I do hope Josh is keeping in regular contact with Anna and the kids. If this family unit is going to work, he and Anna are going to have to address the underlying issues in their marriage, and the kids need to keep a connection with their dad. Isolating Josh isn't going to help him learn to be a better man or to have healthy relationships. 

I'm by no means a Josh fan and I think his behavior has been reprehensible, but separating out a family member and keeping them away doesn't fix what was wrong. If Anna is going to stay with him and they want to move forward together as a family, maintaining connection is important even when it's difficult.

According to the more reliable reports, it seems that Josh and Anna have been writing to each other and have talked on the phone at least a few times in addition to the two visits that we know about.  There is no information that he has been writing to the kids or talked to them on the phone, but I hope that Anna has had the good sense to involve them somehow in staying in touch with Daddy in addition to seeing him at Xmas.

I agree that while it might be better for Anna to separate from Josh and start a life without him, the kids need to have some relationship with their father.  Furthermore, since Anna doesn't intend to do what we think would be better for her, you are right that she and Josh should work on their relationship and improve communication, clarify expectations, etc. (All this in addition to Josh staying clear of sexual sin.).  

Whether they will work on these issues or not is another question.  Like you, I hope that since Anna is staying with him, he will at least learn to respect her and that together they will do their best for their children.  It seems unlikely, but one can hope.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I'd agree with you if Josh's behavior didn't involve molesting children the same age as his daughter, having extremely aggressive, rough, exploitative sex with a porn star, and paying thousands of dollars to a website to find him women to engage in these behaviors with. Anna and the children will be far better off without him. He is a danger to them, emotionally and physically.

While I agree that Josh is no prize and that Anna would be better off without him, she has chosen to stay, and there is no suggestion that she has ever feared him physically nor can anyone state without question that he poses a physical risk to the children.

Yes, he molested two of his sisters when they were roughly the age that Mack is now.  But he was less than ten years older than these sisters and there has never been any sign that he behaved inappropriately with a young child (or even a pubescent girl) after the incidents we know about.  Given his youth at the time and that he seems to have no desire for immature bodies as an adult, I think that it is unlikely that he will molest his daughters, especially if he is sufficiently engaged in their young lives that he sees them as his daughters and therefore not objects of desire.  So isolating Josh might be less protection to his kids that engaging him as a responsible parent.

Regarding his cheating, I thought we had agreed that his profiles were pretty plain vanilla.  The only account that we have about his engagement in violent and abusive sex seems to come from Danica. Or did I miss something?

Now, I agree that Josh does pose an emotional danger to anyone who cares about him.  But that is a much more complicated matter. .  Again, if Anna is going to get back with Josh, the best protection, emotionally, would be some sort of counseling that explores desires, motives, expectations.  I don't think they will get it, but that is the fault of the ATI/Gothard Fundie nonsense that the family is wrapped up in. 

[paulypepper]

6 hours ago, halcionne said:

The video got saved here: 

http://duggars.tumblr.com/post/135971749230/our-christmas-present-to-the-duggar-family-was-a#post-notes

 

I've never seen so many people fascinated by a game of Jenga...

[JenniferJuniper]

2 hours ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

There is NOTHING to prove that attacking his sister (who was NOT the same age as his youngest daughter, by the way) was nothing more than opportunity based. In fact, the fact that he sought sexual partners around his age shows that he is NOT a child predator. 

And, unless there's proof that he has done ANYTHING to any of his children or Anna, you CANNOT state that he's a danger to them. And, it's not fair to any of the family members for you to paint them as victims of they aren't. 

AGREE.  But you CANNOT state he isn't, either.

Guy's fucked up.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

37 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

AGREE.  But you CANNOT state he isn't, either.

Guy's fucked up.

Innocent until proven guilty.

[nastyhobbitses]

So there are a lot of people I guess I need to respond to because things got a bit heated, so I guess here's my blanket response:

I think I was projecting a lot of my personal feelings and tendencies onto Josh and Anna's situation. I'm the sort of person who will cut people out of my life entirely if they betray me, hurt me, or prove to be shitty people with no redeeming factors/use to me. And, well, Anna's probably not that sort of person. And while I do think that given Josh's history and behavior he's not going to change, it was wrong of me to make thinly veiled, essentially baseless accusations/implications that he would hurt or did hurt his children.

That said, nothing in the world would make me happier than to see Anna realize that Josh is a really shitty, selfish weight on her shoulders and she should start life anew with someone who truly loves and respects her. And maybe I'm way off here because I have zero experience with divorce or estrangement, but why should the kids HAVE to have a relationship with a father who cares little for their mother and the family unit as a whole? Yet again, that's my "this person is a total dick and isn't giving me money, so I do not have to deal with them" policy talking, but I don't get the whole "you need to have a relationship with your parent(s) even if they're horrible people" thing. I guess it's because they're little and it would be a different story if they had the capacity to choose what sort of relations they'd have with him, but my point is that you're not obligated to stick with someone who doesn't treat you right just because they share DNA with you.

I agree that if Josh is coming back and Anna's taking him back, the best thing to do is to salvage what's left of their relationship and develop strategies to keep Josh on the straight and narrow. God only knows what those would be.

[JenniferJuniper]

6 hours ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

Innocent until proven guilty.

If you are referring to Josh, he admitted guilt.

I honestly don't get the "crime of opportunity" angle as a sort of defense of Josh.   Does this mean he would have assaulted other girls instead of his sisters he'd only had access to them?  And that would have been better somehow?

A large percentage of 15 year old boys (and I'll use that age as that's old he was when he aggressively assaulted two very young girls) don't have girlfriends yet and many don't even have close contact with girls on a regular basis.  Should we automatically assume boys who have no sisters and go to all-boy schools are likely to do something like what Josh did to a young child in the laundry room if they got the "opportunity"?  Of course not.

I agree that there is no proof he has or will assault his own - or any other - children now.  But his adult behavior with women doesn't necessarily convince me of anything.  Except for the fact that he's got major problems.  This is what the original poster said:

Quote

I will concede that I'm in no position to say that they're victims without proof, but he did completely fuck up his wife's life and turned his whole family's life upside down by being a selfish creep, whether he attacked them or not. And from his reaction when his indiscretions were revealed, it's safe to say that he's more sorry that he got caught than for how he affected others. And doing some carpentry at Jesus Rehab isn't going to fix him. It didn't fix him after he assaulted his sisters, and it won't fix him now. And actual therapy is not going to happen. He'll just learn to be sneakier with his behavior. And we'll just get another scandal, another fauxpology, another stint at Jesus Betty Ford, and another cringe-worthy special. I can agree with/concede to your point about victimization, but I maintain that Anna and the children would be better off without him. Maybe he'll never attack them, maybe he never touched them, but he'll just cause them more heartache and upheaval with his selfishness. Time to cut him loose.

I see no reason to freak out in Josh's defense over this post.  Josh is a seriously messed up person who has never received any real help.  He has shown a tendency to treat those he has power over like shit.  Yes, we can blame his upbringing on some of this, but without actual therapy he's most likely going to crack under pressure again.  If I were his wife, I'd cut him loose now because he's more likely to get worse instead of better as life gets harder.  And life is going to get harder.