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European Refugee Crisis Redux


SpoonfulOSugar

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34 minutes ago, SpoonfulOSugar said:

I think one reason Americans aren't engaging is because we know we don't have a good border solution.  The stuff on our southern border is just grotesque.

Seems to me the EU should be rushing to Greece's side, not treating them like an unwanted stepchild.

I keep having this image of a refugee (I have no clue where I got this romantic notion) sewing loose jewels into the hem of a garment in preparation for escape ahead of an attack.  And then the refugee gets wherever, and the government takes it all away.  It sees like a recipe for black market, bribery and abuse.

Maybe of we were a true union...

I really can't understand how our government could accept and sign the Dublin Agreement. I can hope that they got some substantial advantage in exchange. I doubt it though.  Probably it was some sort of personal and/or political bribery,  as always. 

It's impossible to check borders as Bruxelles requires.  If we don't want refugees here we must find a solution for Syria. And stop shitting around the world thinking it will never hit the fan to smear us all.

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  • There are no good border solutions in either the US or EU because as long as there are desperate people in the world, they will find another way around.
  • Taking people's gold and silver away is disgusting. They aren't going to make a dent in the total bill while at the same time robbing people of both a source of emergency funds and legacy.  In my family little girls and engaged women get gold jewelry so that as adults they have something that can easily be turned to cash in an economic catastrophe.  If you are blessed and don't need the jewelry as emergency funds, it is a way of passing beauty from one generation to another.  I imagine it works the same way for Syrians and Iraqis and Afganis.
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I was wondering if, now that we have a political forum, it would be wise to move this thread there. What do you think @Curious ? 

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On 2016-01-31 at 1:07 AM, SpoonfulOSugar said:

@ everyone - I am still thinking about confiscating valuables.  (It really bothers me.)

This story just breaks my heart.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/30/masked-men-threaten-to-attack-refugee-children-in-stockholm/

05131192.jpg&w=1484

I'm not sure this is a fair image to use - since it's not related to the story, but it makes me maudlin.

 

The vigilante gangs are exactly what will happen if people are exposed to criminal gangs and the police won't do anything about it and the politicians don't care. I have been warning about this happening for a year and this weekend, it did.

 

The "refugee children" you are refering to are not refugees and not children, but criminal street gangs with young men who are sleeping rough around Stockholm and Gothenburg and support themselves by stealing and robbing people, especially children, elders or disabled people, and selling drugs. They also sexually harrass women and young girls, we had a Köln situation i central Stockholm this summmer. When the social services offer to take them in and house them, they refuse or escape as soon as they can.

Four Moroccan "refugee children" raped and threatened to kill a young woman for hours a few months ago, smack dab in central Stockholm. Luckily she got away and the police managed to arrest them. They claimed to be under 15, the age when they are old enough to get a verdict, although they had previously been arrested in Norway and Germany, under different names and different ages.
The court sentenced two of them to four and nine monts in a youth detention centre. One got no sentence at all since the court couldn't prove that he was over 15.
The man that got 9 months escaped from the home in December. Nobody knows where he is and the police can't send out a warrant since they don't have his real identity.

Another Moroccan "refugee child" killed a homosexual man a few months ago, because he... was gay. 

Vigilante gangs is what happens when the government no longer can or want to protect the citizens from criminals. We're in the middle of a very dangerous situation. I live in the area where gangs of criminal North African street gangs hang and it's scary  to always have to be careful when I go out and see them in the park outside my window after dark.

 

http://www.thelocal.se/20151106/teens-sentenced-for-gang-rape-on-hipster-island

http://www.thelocal.se/20160127/teen-who-raped-woman-in-stockholm-on-the-run

http://www.thelocal.se/20151218/gay-snake-murder-case-goes-to-court

 

There have been a lot of articles published about the criminal street gangs last month, but the only links I can find in English are from the Daily Mail.

I really don't understand why the Washington Post chose that photo to illustrate the article since it has absolutely nothing to do with the situation they are describing. It was taken in January 2016, when a few families refused to stay at the refugee centre where they had been placed and took the bus to the Migration Board office outside Stockholm and demanded to be moved.
Some families got a new place to stay with the help from volunteers and other chose to return to the migration centre.

Using that photo to illustrate the article is just really bad reporting.

 

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16 hours ago, AreteJo said:
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  • Taking people's gold and silver away is disgusting. They aren't going to make a dent in the total bill while at the same time robbing people of both a source of emergency funds and legacy.  In my family little girls and engaged women get gold jewelry so that as adults they have something that can easily be turned to cash in an economic catastrophe.  If you are blessed and don't need the jewelry as emergency funds, it is a way of passing beauty from one generation to another.  I imagine it works the same way for Syrians and Iraqis and Afganis.

Well, not sure what to think about that. Lets say my parents die and I can't support myself. I have to first use all of my money and sell real estate (ect...) and once I'm poor I'm allowed to have financial support from the state. This also happens when older people are in need of nursing homes. You have to pay yourself until you reach a certain amount of income left and then the state helps.

It is only fair that it is the same for refugees.

If that makes sense is another story, but we Germans (no idea how it works in other countries) have the same rules when it comes to support from the state.

Disclaimer: Just stating neutral the situation. Like I said above, I'm all in for taking refugees who need help!

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Just now, Gobbles said:

Well, not sure what to think about that. Lets say my parents die and I can't support myself. I have to first use all of my money and sell real estate (ect...) and once I'm poor I'm allowed to have financial support from the state. This also happens when older people are in need of nursing homes. You have to pay yourself until you reach a certain amount of income left and then the state helps.

It is only fair that it is the same for refugees.

If that makes sense is another story, but we Germans (no idea how it works in other countries) have the same rules when it comes to support from the state.

Disclaimer: Just stating neutral the situation. Like I said above, I'm all in for taking refugees who need help!

It's the same in Sweden too. You are supposed to support yourself and if you need help from the governement, you need to liquidate all your assets first. Your bank accounts must be empty (they check them a few months back) and can't own your home or even a crappy car.

I think that the rules for getting assistance from the government should be the same for everybody in the country, regardless of the ethnic background.

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We aren't talking about large assets like property, and even then, you are allowed to keep your primary residence (US rules).   The state does not expect you to become homeless.  What are you doing by forcing someone to hand over their grandmother's ring, or the bracelet given at birth, or the silver spoons used on holidays...other than completely stripping people of their memories and their dignity?  They lose their country, their home, their family support system, and then they have to give up their heirlooms.  There is no reason to punish them further.  A 500 EURO ring is not going to make a dent in the total bill.

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36 minutes ago, AreteJo said:

We aren't talking about large assets like property, and even then, you are allowed to keep your primary residence (US rules).   The state does not expect you to become homeless.  What are you doing by forcing someone to hand over their grandmother's ring, or the bracelet given at birth, or the silver spoons used on holidays...other than completely stripping people of their memories and their dignity?  They lose their country, their home, their family support system, and then they have to give up their heirlooms.  There is no reason to punish them further.  A 500 EURO ring is not going to make a dent in the total bill.

They won't take away jewelry that has sentimental value, but if somebody brings those huge gold parures that brides in the Middle East get as wedding gifts, they are expected to sell it and use the money to pay for their room and board. It's the way social services work here.

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On 12/24/2015 at 0:22 AM, sawasdee said:

Just saw on the news that the US refused admittance to a Muslim family from the UK who were going on holiday to Disneyworld - no reason given. Keep thinking of excited kids, then being refused at check in.

I don't want to start anything but that specific family was refused for a reason. The media did not report that one of the men was refused entry into Israel twice for terrorism and that the other mans facebook account was linked to terrorism also. They were two men traveling alone with 7 children. There's always a reason but media refuses to acknowledge it. 

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1 hour ago, OyToTheVey said:

I don't want to start anything but that specific family was refused for a reason. The media did not report that one of the men was refused entry into Israel twice for terrorism and that the other mans facebook account was linked to terrorism also. They were two men traveling alone with 7 children. There's always a reason but media refuses to acknowledge it. 

Honest question: How do you know this, if it wasn't in the media? I'm not criticizing you, much less do I want to start anything, I'm just genuinely curious where you got that information from.

If, what you are saying is correct, then that sheds a completely different light on the event.

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10 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

Honest question: How do you know this, if it wasn't in the media? I'm not criticizing you, much less do I want to start anything, I'm just genuinely curious where you got that information from.

If, what you are saying is correct, then that sheds a completely different light on the event.

I read it in Russian news. But here's an article in English. Sorry, I got a fact wrong. It wasn't one of their facebooks. It was the 19 year olds facebook.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/24/british-muslim-family-denied-disneyland-trip-for-g/?page=all

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Just now, OyToTheVey said:

I read it in Russian news. But here's an article in English. Sorry, I got a fact wrong. It wasn't one of their facebooks. It was the 19 year olds facebook.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/24/british-muslim-family-denied-disneyland-trip-for-g/?page=all

Thanks for getting back to me. That paints a different picture. But the thing that sits uneasily with me is the frequent mention of Katie Hopkins. She is a columnist, known in the UK for shit-stirring. She suggests, rather than reports.

Was she that prominent in the Russian news? Sorry, this is in no way against you, but another honest question. I'm rather confused by all of this, because the Daily Mail, for whom she writes, would have loved that scoop. They stayed suspiciously quiet, after complaining that a British family was denied entry to the US. Usually, they'd have had a field-day with links to terrorism. Hence the question.

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48 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

Thanks for getting back to me. That paints a different picture. But the thing that sits uneasily with me is the frequent mention of Katie Hopkins. She is a columnist, known in the UK for shit-stirring. She suggests, rather than reports.

Was she that prominent in the Russian news? Sorry, this is in no way against you, but another honest question. I'm rather confused by all of this, because the Daily Mail, for whom she writes, would have loved that scoop. They stayed suspiciously quiet, after complaining that a British family was denied entry to the US. Usually, they'd have had a field-day with links to terrorism. Hence the question.

I honestly don't know who she is. I'm glad you asked if I know her because I really don't want to seem biased or shit-stirring myself. I just feel like media leaves out a lot of information. I tried to find an English version of the Russian article but they all say the same thing as that Washington Post did. I did find one in Israel that's in English.

http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.693726

 

I have family in Germany, Israel, Russia and a bunch of friends in England and Australia. I love international news. Just hate how biased everything is.

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Well, Russian news might not be the best source for information regarding this. They spread false rumours about refugees here in Germany all the time. Recently they faked a story about a girl getting raped by refugees and it was a huge political thing... I don't have time for more right now, but I just wanted to mention that. 

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5 minutes ago, OyToTheVey said:

I honestly don't know who she is. I'm glad you asked if I know her because I really don't want to seem biased or shit-stirring myself. I just feel like media leaves out a lot of information. I tried to find an English version of the Russian article but they all say the same thing as that Washington Post did. I did find one in Israel that's in English.

http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.693726

 

I have family in Germany, Israel, Russia and a bunch of friends in England and Australia. I love international news. Just hate how biased everything is.

Again, thanks for getting back to me. I don't think you're shit-stirring at all. And to the bolded: That's why I'm asking, and am glad that you indulge me. It's very difficult to get a full picture. I'm only fluent in German and English, and functional in French. Outside of those languages, I have no idea which news-outlet is biased towards which view. That makes it difficult to triangulate to get to information. So, thank you for taking the time to find links for me!

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1 minute ago, samurai_sarah said:

Again, thanks for getting back to me. I don't think you're shit-stirring at all. And to the bolded: That's why I'm asking, and am glad that you indulge me. It's very difficult to get a full picture. I'm only fluent in German and English, and functional in French. Outside of those languages, I have no idea which news-outlet is biased towards which view. That makes it difficult to triangulate to get to information. So, thank you for taking the time to find links for me!

It's almost impossible to get the full picture. Each news media states their own information. Others have information that revivals theirs. How does one know what's actual fact? I only know English and Russian. And I can honestly say sometimes, meaning most of the time Russian news is extremely biased. 

And it's no problem!!

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19 minutes ago, Gobbles said:

Well, Russian news might not be the best source for information regarding this. They spread false rumours about refugees here in Germany all the time. Recently they faked a story about a girl getting raped by refugees and it was a huge political thing... I don't have time for more right now, but I just wanted to mention that. 

I thought the girl faked the story that she was raped, and the news reported it in both Germany and Russia?

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Can I say that seeing Katie Hopkins shit-stirrer-professional considered a legitimate source by the news outlets is...problematic at best. I'd like much better if they had tried to find true sources :( media seem to get worse by the day.

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13 minutes ago, AreteJo said:

I thought the girl faked the story that she was raped, and the news reported it in both Germany and Russia?

I don't know if it was faked but I have a lot of family in Germany in multiple cities. The first hand information I get isn't all that positive either. But yes that story was reported a lot in Russia.

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5 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Can I say that seeing Katie Hopkins shit-stirrer-professional considered a legitimate source by the news outlets is...problematic at best. I'd like much better if they had tried to find true sources :( media seem to get worse by the day.

:agree:  This woman is absolutely vile and should not be taken seriously by anyone, she is a rent a gob whose sole purpose is to write controversial articles or tweets to stir up hatred of people she deems to be beneath her.

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Re: Berlin 

I searched for a English newspaper article and I found one by "Deutsche Welle":  http://www.dw.com/en/prosecutors-conclude-russian-german-teens-rape-allegations-were-false/a-19012239

I haven't followed the story, just read the headlines in the newspapers here. 

This article is in Germany only and explains how it works and how the Russian media pays for fake interviews, ect... : http://www.dw.com/de/käufliche-russen-im-kampf-gegen-deutschland/a-19022233

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8 minutes ago, AreteJo said:

I thought the girl faked the story that she was raped, and the news reported it in both Germany and Russia?

 

Whether true or not, this was never about the girl in question. It was about Ukraine, in my opinion. Russia dislikes Germany's opposition to their involvement in Ukraine, Germany dislikes Russia's involvement in Ukraine. The girl in question is Russian-German.

Whatever truly happened, I wish the girl all the best.

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13 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

 

Whether true or not, this was never about the girl in question. It was about Ukraine, in my opinion. Russia dislikes Germany's opposition to their involvement in Ukraine, Germany dislikes Russia's involvement in Ukraine. The girl in question is Russian-German.

Whatever truly happened, I wish the girl all the best.

:agree: A lot of it does involve Ukraine. 

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Our press stopped reporting Ukraine related news months ago :( sometimes it seems like the pink elephant in the room.

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4 hours ago, Gobbles said:

Re: Berlin 

I searched for a English newspaper article and I found one by "Deutsche Welle":  http://www.dw.com/en/prosecutors-conclude-russian-german-teens-rape-allegations-were-false/a-19012239

I haven't followed the story, just read the headlines in the newspapers here. 

This article is in Germany only and explains how it works and how the Russian media pays for fake interviews, ect... : http://www.dw.com/de/käufliche-russen-im-kampf-gegen-deutschland/a-19022233

Yes, that Deutsche Welle article was the one I had read.  Seems the girl disobeyed her parents and then made up the story to cover up.  Looks like the Russian media picked up the story and went hog wild in a bid to embarrass Germany.  That is still different from them having faked the interview, though I don't doubt that's done.  Vladimir Putin routinely has Russian journalists who displease him killed.  I don't imagine it makes for a very good press.

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