Girls from big / important fundy families marrying?

[Daenerys]

I was just thinking that none of the Duggar, Bates or Maxwell girls are married, or even courting, despite the eldest being well into (and in the case of the Maxwells, almost past) marriageable age.

Is this because the daughters, when married, leave the family home and are therefore out of Daddy's control? They would likely move a long way away, as well, because there aren't that many QF families around.

The thing is, the whole 'procreation' ideal falls flat if these families only marry off their boys. The girls need to be reliquished in order to fulfil the '200 grandchildren for Jesus' dream that these guys have.

Is it the case that these girls can't be married as they do so much of the care? Or is it the case that there is no one good enough for them, in that they are the most venerated VF families?

The Duggar and Bates girls need to be given the opportunity to marry and start their own life otherwise they're going to rebel. They've been brought up believing they'll be raising their own children, not their mother's.

[TVR]

I think that maybe the girls in the Duggar and to a lesser degree the Bates' families are not married because being on tv has shattered the "ideal woman" image. We see the rolling eyes, the not so happy looks etc. etc. and so do the potential suitors. I also think that a lot of ATI families think that these families have sold out and are not as Godly as they should be. At the same time I think that these families have become celebrities within their circles which make them less approachable and I think the dads must be having a hard time determining whether would be suitors are genuinely interested in the girls or whether they just want their moment of fame. I think there is also this pressure to find the perfect partner for the girls to show how wonderful courtship really is.

In the Maxwells' case, I think that it would be hard for them to find any man who is good enough by Steve's standards.

[longskirts]

I really think they may not have found anyone they want to marry yet. I would be way more concerned if they were all married off at 16 like Autumn.

[MrsYoungie]

If some of these SAHDs don't start getting married soon the whole Quiverful thingee is just going to die a slow painful death. What kind of role models are the poster children in these families? Sarah Maxwell = spinster. Sarah Malley (Before you Meet Prince Charming) = spinster. Jana Duggar = spinster.

We should be averaging a wedding or two each year and instead a lot of them are starting go get a bit past their "sell by" date. Will some of the younger ones realize that this is not really working out?

As far as I can tell, this is a new enough life style that this is mostly the first generation of the SAHDs. Their parents didn't wait for God to drop a suitable mate on their doorsteps. They dated, went to colleges, chose their own mates.

Maybe we can be content that this is a passing fad and will bring about its own demise.

[Austin]

Maybe we can be content that this is a passing fad and will bring about its own demise.

That works for me!

[kpmom]

Steve Maxwell is reportedly writing a book on courtship. You have to wonder how that's going to sell if none of his daughters are married by the time he publishes it.

[Austin]

Maybe I should write a book on rugby or topiary gardens (two things of which I know nothing). My books would be as credible as Steve's.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I think there are many fails in their system. The problem of marrying off daughters to appropriate suitors is the largest problem. There are several competing pressures, such as the need for older daughters to care for the younger children as mom continues to function as a baby factory. Another issue is the isolation that the girls experience, limiting nomber of exposures to potential suitors.

Additionally, I think there is some pressure for all young quverfull progeny to attract new blood into the fold. They are encouraged to find fundy-lite or fundy non-quiverful young people to bring into the fold. The danger if significant consanguanity looms over the movement, even if they could successfully match amongst themselves. The leadership actually does understand this.

The QF community is the most narcicisstic path that a person could take. They do not see beyond their own lifetime and their own power from creating their little Kingdoms on earth. They have doomed their children to the reality that they have little opportunity to partner at all, less opportunity to partner in a healthy gene pool, and no skills to survive, thrive and reproduce anywhere else. All they care about is the glory they bring to themselves by breeding an entire city that serves only the parents.

[Daenerys]

I really hope that the Duggar and Bates girls do get the chance to get married. It's all they've been raised to do and they don't have the qualifications to do much else. If they don't, they'll be stuck at home for the rest of their lives.

Maybe they don't want to have to submit to a man on a day to day basis? Obvs their fathers are nominally in charge but in their domain of the household they are pretty much left in control and due to the chaos of so many children not closely observed/scrutinised. If it's just them and their husband, he'll probably be more observant and have a lot more to say about exactly how he wants things to be done.

[fundiefan]

In a way, I hope none of them get married. It will toss the whole courtship/god directed marriage thing out the window and all these families making money off their single daughters will fail. They make their money promoting their ways yet if those ways fail, who will want to follow you?

In a decade, I would love to see them fumble their way through the explanations for their 30 to 40 year old daughters who are still being supported by their parents, not having kids for god and not fulfilling their only purpose of being helpmeets to some man. I would love to see their reasoning and excuses and their attempts to make it 'godly'.

If the daughters don't marry, the house of cards their parents have built on their existence will crumble. I can't see that as a bad thing.

[Daenerys]

I agree it's not a bad thing for the movement, but I would feel so sorry for Jana if she was stuck at home raising the kids all the way down to Josie, and then feeling that her life is over at 40 when all the kids are full-grown and out of school and she's got none of her own to focus on. I can't begin to imagine how awful that would be, and the worst thing is I think Jana's seen it already.

The only alternative, though, is to marry and produce 15+ of her own (fertility is partly genetic... those girls better watch out) and either continue the life of domestic drudgery into her old age or pawn it off onto her unfortunate daughters and watch them suffer in the way she did. It's not rally much of a choice... at least Erin Bates can become a music teacher.

The ridiculous thing is, by running a church out of their own home the Duggar girls aren't even able to gain exposure to eligible young men in the appropriate environment of church. That would surely be the most appropriate place to meet an eligible young man but they are denied the chance to even do that! Boob is a noob.

[bananacat]

Don't forget about the Botkins! Daddy prayed over the ovaries of one of them the day that she was born, because her immature eggs were obviously the most important part of her, with the potential to make sons. I think they have both mentioned that they expected to be married by 16 to get their quivers started, and yet they are both unmarried and in their mid-20s. Geoff has such a giant ego and god-complex that no man will ever be good enough to take his place as his daughters' headship. There's something especially creepy going on in that family.

[debrand]

Could part of the problem be that they've been taught so well to hide their natural emotions that they don't display the normal social cues that let another person know if they're interested? We read a lot about guarding your heart on fundie blogs.

Why should a fundie boy go through the hassle of meeting the dad, going through a list of questions and proving himself if the girl has no interest? Not only that, but most young men are not financially ready to support a wife and kids

[bananacat]

I also think that a lot of these families were convinced by the idea of having a bunch of adorable baybeeeez and never really thought through raising them to adulthood. This is especially true of the baby collectors, the Duggars and the Bateses. It's one thing to have a bunch of babies and dress them up in prairie costumes or modern geek costumes, and parade them around to get attention. But releasing them to another person that they can never get away from and the parents can't help no matter what could be scarier for the parents than they expected it to be.

I know Vyckie's view started to change when Angel, her oldest, was around courting age. She could convince herself that all these rules were good, but forcing this lifestyle on her daughter gave her serious doubts. I think Michelle and Kelly realize how draining it is and just aren't in a hurry to inflict it onto their own daughters. They probably don't even realize that they are having these doubts, but I think they realize on some level that it's not all rainbows and puppies like they pretend it is. And in QF, marriage is so FINAL. If the parents pick the wrong husband and he turns out to be abusive or a deadbeat or just eventually disagrees on some minor point of theology, the blame is all on them but they have no power to change anything. I guess it's easier to pick this lifestyle for themselves but harder to force it onto someone they love (and their oldest kids are the ones they know the most).

[GeoBQn]

The thing is, the whole 'procreation' ideal falls flat if these families only marry off their boys. The girls need to be reliquished in order to fulfil the '200 grandchildren for Jesus' dream that these guys have.

Do the children of daughters count for that 200 year/grandchildren plan, though? Since the authority over the daughter transfers from her father to her husband, I would think any children she had would count for her father-in-law's plan.

[MissSeptember]

Maybe I should write a book on rugby or topiary gardens (two things of which I know nothing). My books would be as credible as Steve's.

See: "Bill Gothard"

(while we're talking about people who publish on things they know nothing about)

[demgirl]

More and more I have become convinced that the proper analogy is to an industry. The royal fundie families are businesses. You marry off the sons, and they still stay with you and provide you with labor. You marry off the daughters, and you lose a free worker bee. Plus, you have to pay the sons -- they have to be able to provide debt free homes and livings to families. But the female children? They are literally free except for food and shelter.

[gilora]

The Duggar and Bates daughters are pretty, personable and (in the Duggars' case) come from a wealthy family. I find it difficult to believe that Jim Bob and Gil have not been approached numerous times with courtship/marriage offers for their daughters. It's evident that their families don't want to give up the unpaid labor.

Jana is already older than Josh was when he got married, and older than Michelle was when Josh was born. It seems cruel and exceedingly selfish to keep the daughters from mingling or even meeting, possible husbands.

[Kitty]

More and more I have become convinced that the proper analogy is to an industry. The royal fundie families are businesses. You marry off the sons, and they still stay with you and provide you with labor. You marry off the daughters, and you lose a free worker bee. Plus, you have to pay the sons -- they have to be able to provide debt free homes and livings to families. But the female children? They are literally free except for food and shelter.

Until the youngest kids are at least able to do most things for themselves. FFS a lot of them start chores at what, 5? 6? Jana probably won't be waiting long, especially since Hannie and Joy are getting older and more able to do...whatever. Michelle won't be having babies forever, if she even has any more. So less work, less labor needed. After that, they're just another mouth to feed and HAVE to get married and out of the house.

[lilwriter85]

Steve Maxwell is reportedly writing a book on courtship. You have to wonder how that's going to sell if none of his daughters are married by the time he publishes it.

Some of his fans will probably buy it.

[demgirl]

That is definitely true, Kitty! But I was thinking more like the Maxwells and Botkins, who get part of their income from daughters who write books, keep blogs that people read, give concerts etc.

[lilwriter85]

The Duggar and Bates daughters are pretty, personable and (in the Duggars' case) come from a wealthy family. I find it difficult to believe that Jim Bob and Gil have not been approached numerous times with courtship/marriage offers for their daughters. It's evident that their families don't want to give up the unpaid labor.

Jana is already older than Josh was when he got married, and older than Michelle was when Josh was born. It seems cruel and exceedingly selfish to keep the daughters from mingling or even meeting, possible husbands.

I have wondered a lot about why Jim Bob hasn't been approached with courtship offers. I do think it possible there have been offers but maybe Boob didn't like the young man or his family. I do think Boob and Mullet are probably scared about giving up unpaid labor.

[liltwinstar]

My guess is that there are men who have approached the big fundie families about marrying the women...but I'm also guessing that a large percentage of those men set off either Daddy's or the girls' creep meter. Or they're really old, or one of those guys that goes to the Phillippines or China to get a wife because "Asian women are more submissive." For as weird as I think Jim Bob and Geoff are, they can probably screen those guys out right away.

In order to think oneself a "worthy" contender of the Duggar girls or the Botkin girls or the Maxwell girls, you'd have to have a pretty high opinion of yourself to begin with, to even approach the Dad, you know? So probably only the super arrogant ones would even try, and the women probably would not be attracted to that.

So many fundie boys are fed the "Don't look at pretty women!!!!!!!" line so much that by the time they're marrying age, they don't even know what to look for. Plus, they have to have so many life things settled - where to live, lots of money, lots of theology, etc etc. Normal 20-something boys can't live up to that. These are the boys that were trained that they can't even pick their own shirts in the morning (see the "visionary womanhood" post), so how can they hope to pick a wife??

[fundiefan]

.

They do have a 'session' included in their profiteering about proper, godly courtship. I have to wonder, in a really scary way I'm not even sure I can acknowledge, how or why anyone would want to hear it.

I can't help it. I need examples and evidence. If I'm gonna' sit and hear about proper courtship, it better be coming from someone who has, you know, actually done it. A husband and wife with eight kids, six over 18, only the two oldest married - and the most recent of them married at the age of 31; a 29 year old daughter with two sons in their 20's still at home, none with prospects.

Really. Who the hell would take courtship advice, information or anything else from them? They failed, and continue to fail.

Yet, they try to 'sell' their way to others?

I wouldn't take advice or information from anyone who hasn't lived what they're selling or using experience. I get kinda' weirded out at the thought of people thinking the Maxwells have something to offer in this part of life.

[Daenerys]

To be honest I am surprised that the Duggars and Bates, who are good friends so clearly have compatible theology, haven't married any of their children to each other yet.

Aside from the loans to his parents thing, Lawson is financially doing very well for his age and Zach should be doing reasonably as a County Commissioner. John-David apparently owns some sort of towing business, and TLC/Daddy can certainly bankroll another son into having a house set up for a potential bride.

The eligible (over 18) Duggar girls are Jana, Jill, Jessa and Jinger and the Bates have Michaella, Erin and possibly Alyssa (the Bates haven't got ages/DOBs on their site). It just seems that at this point, it would be odd not to see at least one pairing. Some of the girls HAVE to be married for the lifestyle to seem feasible to the next generation.