Little House Thread

[danvillebelle]

Today is the real Pa and Mary's birthday.  

[clueliss]

Speaking of story lines that were stupid - let's talk the time Laura put apples in her dress for boobs.  So out of the scope of the time period that even when it aired live I wanted to throw things at the TV.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, clueliss said:

Speaking of story lines that were stupid - let's talk the time Laura put apples in her dress for boobs.  So out of the scope of the time period that even when it aired live I wanted to throw things at the TV.  

Thank you - they didn't even have bras back - what was she expecting to keep them in place?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I'm halfway throguh Pioneer Girl because I'm only reading it in snatches of time before bed and they definitely made the right call retooling this for s children's series.  The adult manuscript IMO isn't sophisticated enough to have been marketed to adults sucessfully.

i am fascinated watching how Laura's writing improves over time.  

Real Pa seemed like a less of a shitlord than I'd thought from the excerpts but still not an impressive man.   Clearly loved his family and of the tales are accurate charismatic and charming in that oh, isn't he fun!  Kind of way...but also a deadbeat at times and IMO a coward more than once.  I hesitate to call him lazy because people of that era did more physical labor in a day than I can fathom, but I can't help feel in reading this that she's attributing a greater work ethic to him than was actually the case.  And given the discussions between Laura and Rose about crediting Pa with various accomplishments rather than the other men who actually did them (to simplify the story which makes sense) I think she is deliberate or not painting him in a more favorable light.

there were definitely women back then who had more say in their families and influence over their husbands than Ma seems to.  Not legally, but actions show Pa seemed to care little for what Ma wanted regarding their frequent moves...IMO because she knew he couldn't be successful staying put either.

Laura's portrayal of Ma in the original is more distant and observational.  Not hostile or condemning, it's still positive...but it seems much of the warmth book Laura feels for mer Ma was added in during editing.  Her delight in talking about Pa leaps off the page in all versions, but when she speaks of Ma there are more facts than feeling.  Just pure speculation but she mentions once in a margin note to Rose that Ma was very well educated especially for a woman of her time and she fought adamantly against Rose trying to give Caroline dialogue that included any kind of mild slang or informal speach.  In this she tells Rose that Caroline was above Pa, socially, when they married.  

Im wondering if this is something Ma made clear in her demeanor throughout life.  If Ma felt she was superior to Laura's beloved, irresponsible Pa I can see where there would be some distance and formality.

i came into this book not liking Rose Wilder from all I've read of her and this did nothing but solidify my opinion thus far.  She seems like an extremely unpleasant woman.

ive always wanted to know...why did she call Laura Mama Bess?  Not Mama or mother, whatever.  Why her name in there?  She was her biological mom so no need for a distinction...is it a shot?  Was it always so or did it start after she came back from living with her Aunt Eliza Jane in highschool?   I've read quite a bit about this time period and haven't seen where this is a thing, but maybe I'm wrong?

their relationship from what we read of the back and forth between them lacks warmth.  If you didn't know they were mother daughter you wouldn't even assume friends - just professional editor and author.  If there is any kind of closeness there I can't find it.  

 

[SpoonfulOSugar]

13 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

i came into this book not liking Rose Wilder from all I've read of her and this did nothing but solidify my opinion thus far.  She seems like an extremely unpleasant woman.

ive always wanted to know...why did she call Laura Mama Bess?  Not Mama or mother, whatever.  Why her name in there?  She was her biological mom so no need for a distinction...is it a shot?  Was it always so or did it start after she came back from living with her Aunt Eliza Jane in highschool?   I've read quite a bit about this time period and haven't seen where this is a thing, but maybe I'm wrong?

their relationship from what we read of the back and forth between them lacks warmth.  If you didn't know they were mother daughter you wouldn't even assume friends - just professional editor and author.  If there is any kind of closeness there I can't find it.  

Rose Wilder was exceptionally opinionated, and from what I've read and seen, very domineering towards her mother.   They had no interest in the Rock House (the retirement home Rose built for them), but Rose insisted, totally against their wishes.  

I have read about "Mama Bess" somewhere, but cannot remember where.  I will look and see . . . . 

I'm fascinated by some of the elements you are pulling from Pioneer Girl.  Can't wait to "hear" more of your impressions.

ETA:  Here is one explanation:   "Mama Bess" (the name bestowed by Almanzo Wilder to avoid confusion with his sister Laura)

https://muse.jhu.edu/journals/uni/summary/v018/18.2.huse.html

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, SpoonfulOSugar said:

Rose Wilder was exceptionally opinionated, and from what I've read and seen, very domineering towards her mother.   They had no interest in the Rock House (the retirement home Rose built for them), but Rose insisted, totally against their wishes.  

I have read about "Mama Bess" somewhere, but cannot remember where.  I will look and see . . . . 

I'm fascinated by some of the elements you are pulling from Pioneer Girl.  Can't wait to "hear" more of your impressions.

Not just  toward her mother, she seemed to have an entitlement thing going on with many people in her life.  And yes, she went into debt borrowing from friends including $5000 from the woman with whom she lived as a companion for that house her parents didn't want.  And at one point bemoaned the fact that had she never been successful she would be living happily financially dependent on her parents rather than them being dependent on her.  

She was an adult well into middle age when she said this and the reason her parents were financially dependent on her was that she was adamant they commingle their funds and talked them into investing in the market, which they were afraid of, and lost everything in the crash.

she creates a lot of situations which she then blames of others or fate when they break bad.  

I'm very curious as to Almanzos temperament as I've always had the impression he was fairly laid back ...wondering that that took a turn for passivity when it came to the women controlling his life.  I hope there is more about him when I get to the farmer boy part.

what impresses me so much is how one editor states that Laura has a gift for using words sparingly but powerfully (paraphrasing) and editor assumed it was due to writing for a newspaper where you had limited word count.  Brevity in writing isn't a gift I possess  .

when she was working in the hotel, I believe she was 12?  Will check...but she tells how Will Masters was drunk and came into her room at night (she was nursing his ill wife, Nannie) and she asks if Nannie needed her and he leaned over her and said, "No.  Just lie still." And she smelled the whisky on his breath as he leaned over her and she said she'd scream.  "After that Ma let me come home."

it was so matter of fact the way she told it in a few sentences which made it even more chilling than if she tried to amp up the drama.  

She can certainly wax rhapsodic about the fun times but she's very matter of fact, almost clinical, about the horrific stuff.  I'd imagine that's a defense mechanism common to many who have to live throguh financial instability and lack of physical safety just to survive,

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Oh, can I be totally shallow for a second?  Caroline did not get the hot Ingalls brother!

Charles older brother Peter married Caroline's younger sister Eliza and from a completely superficial standpoint Eliza got the better deal.  I mean if you have to be stuck in a covered wagon with an Ingalls brother ....

Peter

Peter and Eliza wedding ohoto

[SpoonfulOSugar]

I find so many of the portraits from that era to portray stodgy, angry, sullen people . . . . I think it had to do with the style of photography that was available then.

If I remember my initial reaction, none of the Ingalls are as attractive as their novel alter egos.

And I've found several sources now that say Almanzo called Laura "Bess" or "Bessie" - so Rose just picked up on that and that's where "Mama Bess" originated.  (Laura's middle name was Elizabeth.  She couldn't be Eliza because of the infamous Eliza Jane.)

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, SpoonfulOSugar said:

I find so many of the portraits from that era to portray stodgy, angry, sullen people . . . . I think it had to do with the style of photography that was available then.

If I remember my initial reaction, none of the Ingalls are as attractive as their novel alter egos.

And I've found several sources now that say Almanzo called Laura "Bess" or "Bessie" - so Rose just picked up on that and that's where "Mama Bess" originated.  (Laura's middle name was Elizabeth.  She couldn't be Eliza because of the infamous Eliza Jane.)

I knew where the Bess came from, also because Almanzo never liked the name Laura.  Just think it's odd her daughter tacked it on.  Usually mama was be self explanatory unless you need to differentiate with another mama.

my great-great grandfather had a photography studio of sorts in his general store  in this time period in Missouri and you can't find a smile amongst any of the surviving pictures.  They had to sit perfectly still for minutes at a time for the camera to get s picture and I'd think it would be impossible to hold a smile that long without looking maniacal.  That's why everyone in photographs looks like they were just told their entire family had been killed or that they really need to go to the bathroom.  You'd think there was no happiness in the world before the invention of the instamatic if we just went by pics  

[clueliss]

I seem to recall that Almanzo also had a sister named Laura.

[roddma]

SO there were two Eliza Janes or Eliza? Laura's Aunt, and Sister in law

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, roddma said:

SO there were two Eliza Janes or Eliza? Laura's Aunt, and Sister in law
 

Right.  She has a sister in law Eliza Jane and a maternal aunt Eliza Ann.

Which is nothing compared to the Lauras.  Besides LIW the other Lauras were 

Almanzos sister 

paternal grandmother

aunt (Aunt Docia in the books - her given name was Laura Ladocia Ingalls.)

cousin - Laura Eliza Ingalls.

 

 

[moreorlessnu]

On 1/10/2016 at 5:53 PM, MatthewDuggar said:

I watched an interview with Melissa Gilbert and she said it was extremely difficult and confusing to even act falling in love with an older man as she had never felt that way before.  Dean Butler was 23 at the time.

I read somewhere (maybe in Melissa Gilbert's book?) that she dreaded the "first kiss" scene w/ Dean Butler and tried to get out of it, but the producers wouldn't hear of it.

For what it's worth, Melissa Gilbert's book was an interesting read.

[Screamapillar]

Little House on the Prairie movie is coming!

http://www.today.com/popculture/little-house-prairie-get-film-adaptation-paramount-studios-t69321

[PennySycamore]

@Screamapillar, I almost didn't recognize Karen Grassle in those clips from the Today Show.  She looks fantastic for 73!  

Melissa Gilbert is running for Congress as the Democratic candidate for Michigan's 8th District.

[slp]

I read Alison Arngrim's book over the weekend (Confessions of a Prairie B*tch)  and absolutely LOVED it.  It was very interesting and she did a great job telling about the show, the actors, the actresses etc.  She didn't have a lot of good things to say about Melissa Sue Anderson (Mary), but did intimate that her aunt (her guardian on set) always said she did not have a happy home life.  

I also read Missy Francis' book Diary of a Stage Mother's Daughter which was also very interesting. 

But Alison's book is great, funny, and descriptive.  If you've ever had any of the LHOP seasons on DVD listening to her give commentary on the episodes is hysterical.  Her book does discuss her childhood sexual abuse by her older brother in some detail, so be warned about that. 

[MatthewDuggar]

I just bought the 3rd season on Amazon Prime.  It's interesting how much the girls started looking a bit more "grown up" in that season compared to the previous two.  They really ramped up Nellie's bitchy and nastiness as well.   

I love the cast interviews I have been finding on youtube.  I just can't watch some of the episodes the same anymore now knowing that Laura and Willie were real life brother and sister.  Also knowing that Allison and Melissa G were good friends shows that they really did a good job as "acting" as enemies.  

[moreorlessnu]

I have yet to read anything positive about Melissa Sue Anderson. That speaks volumes given that she was a young girl when the show started.

On the other hand, I have repeatedly read positive comments about Katherine MacGregor (Mrs. Oleson).

[PennySycamore]

3 hours ago, moreorlessnu said:

I have yet to read anything positive about Melissa Sue Anderson. That speaks volumes given that she was a young girl when the show started.

On the other hand, I have repeatedly read positive comments about Katherine MacGregor (Mrs. Oleson).

Katherine "Scottie" MacGregor is still living at the age of 91!

[tehfanglyfish]

The books may be my favorite books of all time. And I loved Pioneer Girl with all of its annotations. I couldn't stand the television show. Found it when I was little and got so pissed off that it didn't match up with the books. One day I am going on a De Smet pilgrimage.

[ADoyle90815]

3 hours ago, tehfanglyfish said:

The books may be my favorite books of all time. And I loved Pioneer Girl with all of its annotations. I couldn't stand the television show. Found it when I was little and got so pissed off that it didn't match up with the books. One day I am going on a De Smet pilgrimage.

Same here. I was reading the books when the show was huge, and the thing I hated was that they never matched. I especially hated the apple as fake boobs scene because they had corsets back then, not bras. I'm also one who tried to convince my parents to make a detour on a cross country trip to DeSmet, but it didn't work.

[roddma]

I always heard K.McGregor is 'totally' unlike her character. Richard Bull passed a couple of years ago. I hipe the new movie is more real than the show. And interesting
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/is-pa-ingalls-a-dangerous-role-model-for-my-husband-and-son-dg/
And info on the real cause of Mary's blindness
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20670958,00.html

[lucypepys]

Oooh, I'm so happy to discover this this thread!  I am a huge LIW nerd.  As in, I'm 30 years old, and I still re-read the books every year.  Never liked the show though.  I read Pioneer Girl a few years ago when it was available as an appendix to some girl's dissertation (sometimes I read scholarly articles on the Little House books for fun...yeah), but it disappeared from the internet, and I haven't wanted to spend the money on the book yet.  But I do remember being somewhat taken aback by the Masters family living with them during the Hard Winter (I try not to think about it because it ruins the book for me).  And what about the "Bloody Bender" family?  I don't think Pa was actually involved in that as Laura claims, because the Ingalls family would have been living there around 1869-70 or 1871 I think, and the Benders didn't open their "inn" until 1871 (and their murders were discovered in 1873), but it's definitely an interesting historical side note to the homeliness of Little House.

[PennySycamore]

@lucypepys, yeah, most historians don't put much stock in the Pa being involved with hunting down the "Bloody" Benders.

[MatthewDuggar]

I went to the LHOTP store/museum in Walnut Grove, MN several years ago as I worked for a company that had offices somewhat nearby.  I was rather underwhelmed.  They did have a lovely gift shop with tons of Little House and Ingalls books, items, clothing, etc.  They had a "replica" soddy and a few other small buildings in the yard next to the store.  I know this was a huge thing for that city when they did the series in the 70's so I guess I was expecting more.   It always bothers me that the topography between that area of MN and Simi Valley, CA where the show was shot, it drastically different.  No huge mountains, in fact, to get to the Walnut Grove area from the twin cities is so flat and boring, it feels like you've driven to the end of the earth.