Should FJers "out" fake Jews (you know who)?

[FaustianSlip]

To clarify, I personally am not planning on outing her (just want to put that out there, in case someone does- it ain't me!). That said, I totally understand the urge, because I've contemplated it myself. I don't think it's appropriate because, as others have said, I suspect she'll do it herself, I don't really think either she or her "love" have the intestinal fortitude to actually make it through a conversion process (any conversion process- whether you convert Orthodox or not, the whole process is about the community accepting you as much as you choosing to join the community, and I don't think Lina gets that at all), and to me, it seems like a pretty clear case of lashon hora (evil speech, gossip... not sure how best to translate that), at least unless it reaches the point where she's actually contacting rabbis looking to convert. I would hope that a rabbi would ask her about her feelings regarding Jesus (mine certainly did), but I have a hunch that unless said rabbi phrases it just so (and perhaps even then), she's going to deliberately lie by omission and twist her words to avoid tipping him off, if only to console herself that she's not really lying, and that just ain't on, IMHO.

As for why a rabbi could be blamed for a convert he sponsored going awry, a lot of it is political. Like I mentioned, conversion is a huge bone of contention right now, for a variety of reasons having to do with the relationship between Israel and the Diaspora, the desire of the Israeli rabbinate to consolidate its power, disagreements between various segments of the Jewish population (both within Orthodox and without) and on and on. Conversion issues in Judaism could really be their own thread. The short version is that in many places in the Orthodox community (and in some places outside of it), converts can be treated with attitudes ranging from skepticism to suspicion to outright hostility. There are people who are very quick to question the sincerity of converts, the legitimacy of their conversion and beit din, et cetera. In the Orthodox community, this is usually masked as "concern" for the welfare of the community at large, namely, "We have to make sure that converts are sincere, because only then will they really be Jews, and if they're not and we accept them, we could be creating intermarriages, bad influence on the community, et cetera." In actuality, I think a lot of it is a political contest between rabbis over whose version of Judaism trumps the others and whose idea of Jewish law is more correct, and converts tend to get caught in the middle. There's also the bullying factor, as you might expect. The end result is that every time a convert abandons Orthodoxy or Judaism or something happens like it turns out that XYZ convert actually never stopped believing in Jesus and duped everyone, there are people, some of them in circles that are pretty powerful in places like Israel, that rush to say, "See? See? This is why we have to discourage conversion and make it as difficult as possible!" So the conversion process gets longer, more adversarial and more unpleasant for sincere people who just want to be Jewish. That's what pisses me off about Lina. She, personally, is prepared to help contribute to a problem that's plaguing a lot of people, a number of whom I know personally, causing them to jump through even more hoops to prove their Jewishness and leaving them with a very real fear that they could be tossed out of their community on their toches for reasons having more to do with other insincere converts and/or rabbis who were fooled by them than with themselves or their own observance levels. All of this, incidentally, is part of the reason I decided against an Orthodox conversion.

I should also emphasize that the above does not reflect the experience I had during the course of my (Conservative) conversion, where my rabbi and my synagogue community were absolutely fantastic, supportive and welcomed me with open arms. Jewish friends were likewise excited and happy for me. But knowing people who converted under Orthodox auspices and having read a lot of frum conversion blogs and hung out on conversion boards for a long time now, the bullying, adversarial approach to conversion, in the Orthodox world, isn't at all uncommon, and people like Lina are used as part of the justification for that. While plenty of the blame is on the rabbis and other people who take this approach, some also applies to Lina and others like her who deliberately deceive their communities in order to use conversion not as a way of joining the Jewish people, but purely for their own personal gain. It's deceitful, disrespectful and disgusting, IMHO. That said, I'm not going to start randomly e-mailing Orthodox rabbis in the Houston area to "tell" on her, either. I think she's going to find out pretty quickly that it's going to be very, very hard to keep her real beliefs under wraps and conform to the demands of an Orthodox beit din after years of playing dress-ups and pretty much doing whatever she wanted.

[FaustianSlip]

Hey Faustian and others who have converted, my understanding was that a routine question from the bet din was whether you had left your old religion behind, including any belief in Jesus. Was that true in your experience?

In my case, my rabbi and I discussed (fairly extensively) my upbringing in Christianity, my reasons for leaving it and my feelings about G-d, et cetera. One of the first things he asked me was why go from Episcopalianism to Judaism; why not try another Christian denomination? In my case, my answer was that since I couldn't accept either the concept of the Trinity or the belief that Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Jewish Messiah, virtually every denomination of Christianity was, for me, null and void (save maybe Unitarian Universalism, but that's not really my bag). I may have been somewhat unique in that I had known from around age twelve that I wanted to be Jewish and had been practicing Judaism in some capacity or another for a solid ten years. Really, once you've been a regular member of a Jewish community someplace like Japan, I think it's a little harder for people to question your commitment. So the Christianity thing was never a big issue in my case, because I don't think my rabbi ever had many (any?) doubts that I had cleared that hurdle a while ago. I don't know how it works for someone who's coming in after more recently leaving Christianity or leaving a more fundamentalist denomination; I would think that would get a bit more probing and scrutiny, but I don't know.

At the actual beit din, I was given a sort of declaration of faith to read before the rabbis sent me off to the mikvah (and subsequently signed the conversion certificate). The opening of this declaration, which I happen to have handy, reads thus: "I hereby affirm of my own free will and volition, my commitment to the God of Israel, the Torah of Israel and the People of Israel. Irrevocably accepting Judaism, I sever my ties to any other religion with which I may once have been affiliated." Now, here's the catch. Lina will swear up and down that what she's doing is Judaism ("real" Judaism, even). She doesn't think that all of the Yeshua stuff poses a problem or means that what she's doing is inconsistent with what mainstream Jews consider Judaism. So I suspect that she'd have no problem saying that with a straight face, as in her own, whackadoodle worldview, she's not practicing Christianity, she's just practicing "completed" Judaism (excuse me while I retch a bit). If there were something specifically requiring her to publicly renounce Jesus as part of her beit din, that might give her pause, but I don't see Conservative Judaism taking that approach. Orthodoxy might, though, I don't know.

[browngrl]

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea. I completely understand why you want to, but I just don't think it's necessary. As others have pointed out, she seems pretty unlikely to be willing to go through all of the hard work that is involved in the conversion process. Even if she did, I imagine that the rabbi she works with would see through her pretty easily... she'd surely slip up at some point or another in that long process. Also, her religious views have been constantly changing over the past year or two...maybe she actually will stop believing in "Yeshua" at some point along the road. I would only consider warning people if and when she actually starts trying to convert, if it seems like she's still planning on lying.

Of course you have to do what you think is best but if you want to know my opinion: I don't think you should do it.

Firstly, I think it is unnecessary. I would think (and hope) that most rabbi's would be able to discern her real ideas/motives and then make their own decision on whether or not to help her convert. We have only met Lina through her blog. Her rabbi will meet with her in person and therefore is in a better position to judge her.

Secondly, I think that people should intervene when there is a danger to someone (eg abuse of any kind, a crime etc). In Lina's case her biggest crimes are: she is irritating, she may have fallen for a man who is not good for her, she is pretentious. If you went after everyone who has done the same it would become your full time job.

Thirdly, there seem to be a fair number of messianic jews - I think it is a matter for Jewish leaders to decide if they wish to claim these people as their own.

I am offering unsolicited advice which is often an unwise thing, but my advice is : seek the counsel of a rabbi you know and trust about this.

[lilah]

As a 100% real Jew I say no. Abuse is one thing, it means protecting someone who can't advocate for themselves. Lina is an adult, and it's her choice to lie or decieve a man of God, so be it. I just hope she can find a community of other messianic Jews and forgo a false conversion.

[Guest Anonymous]

On re-reading, I have noticed that the thread title "Should FJers "out" fake Jews?" doesn't really match up at all with the original post, which is Funfundieland asking for opinions as to whether s/he should personally out Lina.

So, to clarify my position, I don't think of FJ as a group that has consensus on this sort of matter and I'd hope that anyone planning to out Lina will do so on their own steam, and not use FJ's name to do so.

Thanks Faustian Slip for the explanation of your position though. I do think that the Jewish faith (and other faiths) should be respected, even though I am personally without any faith. :)

I just think Lina is a very silly and immature girl and don't see her as a particular threat to anyone (except perhaps to any yet-to-be-born offspring).

[FaustianSlip]

Thirdly, there seem to be a fair number of messianic jews - I think it is a matter for Jewish leaders to decide if they wish to claim these people as their own.

That's been pretty firmly decided; none of the major Jewish denominations consider Messianics to be Jews unless they're already halachically Jewish (i.e. Jewish mom, previous, legitimate conversion, Jewish dad and raised Jewish if you're Reform), and they don't regard the practices of Messianic congregations to be Jewish. There is some discussion of this in a responsa (halachic discussion) by a rabbi of the Conservative Rabbinical Assembly about whether an apostate (and here he mentions Messianic Judaism by name) can/should be permitted burial in a Jewish cemetery (he argues no). The official Reform position is that Messianics are not allowed to join Reform synagogues as members, and there are official responsa stating that Jews who have joined the Messianic movement and then want to rejoin the Jewish community would need to do some kind of teshuvah (repentance) to come back. The idea that Orthodoxy would accept into their community someone who publicly declared Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah is laughable. This is, perhaps, the one subject on which all three of the major movements agree.

The question isn't whether a rabbi, at least of any of the major movements, would accept Lina as a candidate for conversion with her beliefs as they currently stand. He (or she) wouldn't. It's very clear cut, and there's really no debate about it in any quarter of the Jewish community that I've seen. Lina knows this, of course, even if she's trying to delude herself into thinking otherwise. The question is whether she'll be honest about her beliefs with whatever rabbi she asks to sponsor her conversion which, based on her answers (and non-answers) to questions about her conversion plans, as well as the fact that the people to whom she refers as having had an Orthodox "conversion" while still believing in Jesus lied to their rabbis, batei din and communities, I really, really doubt. And I wouldn't say that lightly. I also think she'd be so worried about alienating all of her Messianic and fundie friends that I'm not sure she'd have it in her to publicly renounce her current beliefs on her blog. Not to mention that old Tony is apparently still heavily involved with that Messianic ministry he was working for.

Now, I agree that she's flighty at best, so she may very well change her mind, drop the Jesus thing entirely and if she wants to convert then, more power to her, but with her blog floating around in the ether, ready to be picked up in any Google search a rabbi might do, I think she's making herself a pretty hard row to hoe if she ever does have a change of religious beliefs and genuinely want to become Jewish. I don't think I'd touch her with a ten-foot pole if I were a rabbi who had stumbled upon that blog, whether she was professing to have stopped viewing Jesus as the Messiah or not.

[Black Aliss]

I think it's really none of our business. All religious fanatics are inherently dangerous, anyway. Within that context Lina's pretty harmless.

[bionicmlle]

I agree we shouldn't "out" her -- I agree with all above who say she will "out" herself -- that's the only way she'll learn that her actions have real consequences. If we "out" her and she finds out she'll just scream "persecution of my people!" and become even more insufferable.

[Dinorah]

Reading through her blog, I haven't gotten any indication that she intends to lie in order to formally convert.

In my completely unprofessional opinion, I think it's quite possible she might ultimately drop the "Yeshua" thing altogether, in which case she'd be converting genuinely anyway.Regardless of my feelings about her particular brand of Messianic practice (Messianism??) I'm not sure how "outing" would be necessary. She's not hiding her Messianic belief on her blog. In that we she's already "out".

I get this feeling too. She hasn't referred to "Yeshua" in months, has removed the Paul quote she used to have and says she "serves" Hashem or something similar. But I think that because she's been so ingrained into the Christian fundie culture she can't separate itself entirely from it. She might also be aware that for her and "Love" to undergo a formal conversion would be a long and drawn process, especially if they stay in an area with few Orthodox Jews.

I actually find her less annoying than other fake Jews (which doesn't mean she isn't annoying) and I don't get the need for "outing" until her blog is around.

[Guest Anonymous]

I get this feeling too. She hasn't referred to "Yeshua" in months, has removed the Paul quote she used to have and says she "serves" Hashem or something similar. But I think that because she's been so ingrained into the Christian fundie culture she can't separate itself entirely from it. She might also be aware that for her and "Love" to undergo a formal conversion would be a long and drawn process, especially if they stay in an area with few Orthodox Jews.

I actually find her less annoying than other fake Jews (which doesn't mean she isn't annoying) and I don't get the need for "outing" until her blog is around.

Honestly? I think she's doing it to be deceptive in case a rabbi finds her blog.

I'm personally torn on this issue. On one hand as a convert, her particular brand of utter bullshit infuriates me. On the other hand its borderline Lashon hora sooooooooo I don't know.

[hoipolloi]

I'd say don't bother. She's a jerk & I suspect will out herself sooner, not later. Religion seems to be a form of fashion for her so I wouldn't be surprised if she and "love" change their minds & don't go through with the conversion process.

Also, don't rabbis know how to use Google? Nowadays, you'd think a rabbi worth his or her salt would ask a potential convert for links to blogs, websites, etc.

[luckylibrarian]

As a non-Jew, I don't feel qualified to weigh in on whether or not her local rabbi should be contacted. If the OP decides to out her, she should do so as a Jew who is concerned about the consequences for her community, not as a concerned member of FJ. Personally, I am uncomfortable with anyone being outted for anything other than abuse, but if you are rely concerned about the consequences for the Jewish community in Lina's community, then talk to your Rabbi first.

(BTW, where does Lina live? Is she American?)

[kb2]

As for why a rabbi could be blamed for a convert he sponsored going awry, a lot of it is political. Like I mentioned, conversion is a huge bone of contention right now, for a variety of reasons having to do with the relationship between Israel and the Diaspora, the desire of the Israeli rabbinate to consolidate its power, disagreements between various segments of the Jewish population (both within Orthodox and without) and on and on. Conversion issues in Judaism could really be their own thread. The short version is that in many places in the Orthodox community (and in some places outside of it), converts can be treated with attitudes ranging from skepticism to suspicion to outright hostility. There are people who are very quick to question the sincerity of converts, the legitimacy of their conversion and beit din, et cetera. In the Orthodox community, this is usually masked as "concern" for the welfare of the community at large, namely, "We have to make sure that converts are sincere, because only then will they really be Jews, and if they're not and we accept them, we could be creating intermarriages, bad influence on the community, et cetera." In actuality, I think a lot of it is a political contest between rabbis over whose version of Judaism trumps the others and whose idea of Jewish law is more correct, and converts tend to get caught in the middle. There's also the bullying factor, as you might expect. The end result is that every time a convert abandons Orthodoxy or Judaism or something happens like it turns out that XYZ convert actually never stopped believing in Jesus and duped everyone, there are people, some of them in circles that are pretty powerful in places like Israel, that rush to say, "See? See? This is why we have to discourage conversion and make it as difficult as possible!" So the conversion process gets longer, more adversarial and more unpleasant for sincere people who just want to be Jewish. That's what pisses me off about Lina. She, personally, is prepared to help contribute to a problem that's plaguing a lot of people, a number of whom I know personally, causing them to jump through even more hoops to prove their Jewishness and leaving them with a very real fear that they could be tossed out of their community on their toches for reasons having more to do with other insincere converts and/or rabbis who were fooled by them than with themselves or their own observance levels. All of this, incidentally, is part of the reason I decided against an Orthodox conversion.

Thanks for this explanation. Having seen my Protestant church get into a big fight with itself, I understand that it can be really heartbreaking to watch the politics of religion split people up. I can also understand wanting a certain side to "win," because they're the ones that seem to want to do more good in the world, and that in order to help them you have to play the religion game. You know, the game where you do your best to prove your Christian-ness so you can have a say in what the church does (even though getting baptized should have been enough) or warn a rabbi that they're in danger of helping an insincere person with conversion (even though protecting egos shouldn't have ever been given priority over allowing sincere converts to join).

As a (newish) atheist, I find it all exhausting. I don't really feel the need to go protect a society by preventing a completely arbitrary event from happening that is only detrimental to that society because of the way its own members act about it. But I can understand how someone else would feel the need to, because the potential implosion would be very disappointing. But it would be your personal actions, because FJ as a hive-vagina probably doesn't really want to take sides in that power struggle, and the community involved would care more about your personal opinion than our hive-vagina opinion, anyway.

Also, I would at least wait until she actually sets out to convert, not just talks about it. Sending a bunch of people her blog, when she's not really about to seek them out, would be kind of random and weird.

[lizzy]

As for why a rabbi could be blamed for a convert he sponsored going awry, a lot of it is political. Like I mentioned, conversion is a huge bone of contention right now, for a variety of reasons having to do with the relationship between Israel and the Diaspora, the desire of the Israeli rabbinate to consolidate its power, disagreements between various segments of the Jewish population (both within Orthodox and without) and on and on. Conversion issues in Judaism could really be their own thread. The short version is that in many places in the Orthodox community (and in some places outside of it), converts can be treated with attitudes ranging from skepticism to suspicion to outright hostility. There are people who are very quick to question the sincerity of converts, the legitimacy of their conversion and beit din, et cetera. In the Orthodox community, this is usually masked as "concern" for the welfare of the community at large, namely, "We have to make sure that converts are sincere, because only then will they really be Jews, and if they're not and we accept them, we could be creating intermarriages, bad influence on the community, et cetera." In actuality, I think a lot of it is a political contest between rabbis over whose version of Judaism trumps the others and whose idea of Jewish law is more correct, and converts tend to get caught in the middle. There's also the bullying factor, as you might expect. The end result is that every time a convert abandons Orthodoxy or Judaism or something happens like it turns out that XYZ convert actually never stopped believing in Jesus and duped everyone, there are people, some of them in circles that are pretty powerful in places like Israel, that rush to say, "See? See? This is why we have to discourage conversion and make it as difficult as possible!" So the conversion process gets longer, more adversarial and more unpleasant for sincere people who just want to be Jewish. That's what pisses me off about Lina. She, personally, is prepared to help contribute to a problem that's plaguing a lot of people, a number of whom I know personally, causing them to jump through even more hoops to prove their Jewishness and leaving them with a very real fear that they could be tossed out of their community on their toches for reasons having more to do with other insincere converts and/or rabbis who were fooled by them than with themselves or their own observance levels. All of this, incidentally, is part of the reason I decided against an Orthodox conversion.

This is interesting. I can't say I know much about Judaism or their conversion process. Out of curiosity, is this attitude because they see themselves as God's chosen people and that is more of a birthright than a choice?

Regarding Lina, I've been reading her blog over the last couple of days and rarely have I found somebody as bat shit crazy as her. IMO, people with blogs tend to be somewhat narcissitic and can't help but brag about everything. My guess is that she'll out herself within the conversion process.

[lexiloumarie]

This is interesting. I can't say I know much about Judaism or their conversion process. Out of curiosity, is this attitude because they see themselves as God's chosen people and that is more of a birthright than a choice?

Regarding Lina, I've been reading her blog over the last couple of days and rarely have I found somebody as bat shit crazy as her. IMO, people with blogs tend to be somewhat narcissitic and can't help but brag about everything. My guess is that she'll out herself within the conversion process.

I'll be honest, I've been Jewish my whole existence (with varying degrees of observance) and I've never heard the Chosen thing as anything positive. I've usually heard it used to refer to a burden (exile in Egypt, the Shoah, the Temples' destruction, diaspora), more than any kind of blessing. Conversion is usually taken the same way. I've heard converts being asked more than once "why the hell would you want to be Jewish? Everyone hates us, and you want to join willingly?!" Tradition is to turn away a convert 3 times to prove that they understand the seriousness of their choice, and have thought the conversion through.

And the in-fighting among Rabbis is not much different than the different fundie attitudes. Some groups say one thing, another says no that's not strict enough. Some say hats and head covering this way, some say tights this way, etc. They all want to be right, and so conversion becomes away of judging each others' observance and view of halacha.

Birthright has little to do with acceptance of converts because of halacha. Interestingly enough, you aren't supposed to discuss someone's conversion once it's complete. It's been negative experiences because of people like Lina that have caused the caution and fighting over the years.

[Witsec6]

Yeah ,I wouldn't, but if you do, please don't drag FJ into it. It's not like Lina is abusing/starving/beating children. She hasn't even admitted that she would lie to a Rabbi. I also think that it is pretty insulting to the Rabbi if you doubt that he will do his job properly.

[Koala]

I don't think it's necessary to "out her" and I wouldn't stand behind it. Trust me, she'll out herself in her own time. No intervention needed on our part.

I agree. She's a train wreck, but until she's a harm to herself or someone else, then I think it's way over the line to get involved :shifty:

[JesusFightClub]

Please don't do it in the name of FJ, but I am inclined to say yes.

I have to translate religion into politics in my head because I've never been in a religion that would worry about this, but essentially it is an issue of someone joining group X from group Y with motives that will be destructive to the group, right? If you were in group X, would you not want a wee heads up?

This has actually happened to me recently and a warning was duly given as to someone's previous allegiances and actions. If it is a true conversion it will surely just give the rabbi the chance to ask all the right questions and give him more info. But as other people pointed out, the person who introduced the infiltrator also will feel disapproval fall on them if someone like Lina converts or joins under false pretences. It is bigger than one person.

[Guest Anonymous]

Re Faustian and the Beit Din: I too was questioned by them before the documents were signed. My Rabbi and I had very long conversations about my xtian roots, my familys Jewish origins and my own motivation. Our conversations were not just under the guise of formal instruction, but took place at family dinners and celebrations that the Rabbi attended. (He was dating an Auntie by marriage. So a presence in our daily lives.) And forever forth, I remember those words, I would be a Jew.

Years later after I had divorced, and chosen atheism as my path he and I conversed about the forever forth. Being a liberal Jew, he accepted secular and atheist Jews, who, like myself, wanted to reinforce heritage, family and identity via the path of conversion. Highly observant Jews or their Rabbis' would likely not support those views. There are those who would prefer my name not be inscribed in The Book of Life, and thats ok with me.

As to outing this woman under the guise of FJ, nah. I think it would be an individuals choice and hope they wouldn't invoke FJ. I've found an enormous amount of freedom and safety here knowing that I'm not alone thinking these folks are batshit crazy.

[fundiefun]

This may be the unpopular opinion but I say go for it. I wonder if once she tries to convert if she is going to delete or lock her blog.

[onlyorganic]

I wouldn't do it. I think that if she was to become involved in a community where she is seriously being considered as a convert, someone will come up with this on their own. Her latest post is short- but a real doozie. She can't wait to kiss and hug him and so much more. It really seems to me like these two are playing house. It's not just about cooking him every meal... it's about submitting. And being one. I threw up a little in my mouth.

[demgirl]

Yeah. I wouldn't do it. If you want advice on whether to do it or not, my advice would be don't. Everyone has to follow their own conscience though, so if you feel like you need to or it is the right thing, I can't tell you not to - but do it from yourself, not from us as a whole.

Reporting child abusers is one thing and I fully support that, but this IMO is just inviting unnecessary trouble.

[FaustianSlip]

I wouldn't do it. I think that if she was to become involved in a community where she is seriously being considered as a convert, someone will come up with this on their own. Her latest post is short- but a real doozie.

Welp, guess there's not much guessing left to do on the reason for the two weddings! :dance:

[Beeks]

Welp, guess there's not much guessing left to do on the reason for the two weddings! :dance:

Seriously, barf. I did not need the mental image of TT goin at it (which, because I'm immature, is immediately what pops into my head when people mention sexy coyly like that)

[darareaksmey]

I think I can understand your desire to keep the frauds out of your religious group. On the other hand, it's my policy in general not to intervene if I expect someone is going to effect their own undoing. The truth will out. I wonder if she has considered her faith's consequences for denying Christ? I wonder if she thinks Jesus would approve her sneakiness and deceit? The whole thing stinks to high heaven; yet I don't think I would do anything about it. But go for it if your conscience tells you to; I couldn't argue with that.