Should FJers "out" fake Jews (you know who)?

[fundyfunland]

My frustration: After reading through Lina's blog for the first time in a while, I became re-acquainted with my pure annoyance and sheer disrespect for this special lady. My anger and disrespect stem from her own disrespect for Judaism, and the fact that she intends to lie to the beit din in order to convert.

 

My perspective: I studied Judaism seriously for 2 years w/ a rabbi with the intention of converting. Ultimately, I decided I just couldn't live all the lifestyle that was expected of me, so I dropped out....of convert school This process taught me to have the utmost respect for those who choose to convert, as their sincerity is sometimes questioned, despite that they may be MORE jewish then a born-Jew (in my mind).

 

my point: sincere converts work very hard to become Jewish. Linaon the other hand, intends to go through the conversion process, fully knowing that she believes that Jesus (sorry Yeshua) is the Jewish messiah, something not at all acceptable to any Jew. By doing this, not only is she making a farce out of the beit din system, but fools out of the Jewish community she intends to embrace (and who will likely embrace her unknowingly as a ger tzedek), and ultimately stomping her feet on the graves of all those Jews who died for their people.

 

my question: I am considering outting her to all the beis din in her area...maybe in her country. Just need to show them her picture, and send them to her blog. Would this be wrong? Feedback - any - would be great.

[Guest Anonymous]

I went through the conversion process with a very kind and liberal Reformed Rabbi many years ago. I do not practice the faith, although it is the religion of some of my ancestors.

Please out the bitch.

TYVM

[VVV]

I wouldn't do it. I don't think it's worth inserting yourself into a situation that doesn't concern you unless it's something like bloggers bragging about child abuse, where someone's getting hurt. Stupidity alone doesn't register high enough on my "should-I-butt-in" meter. Anyway, she's bound to put her foot in her mouth in front of the wrong person sooner or later. I predict that she will out herself.

[fundyfunland]

I wouldn't do it. I don't think it's worth inserting yourself into a situation that doesn't concern you unless it's something like bloggers bragging about child abuse, where someone's getting hurt. Stupidity alone doesn't register high enough on my "should-I-butt-in" meter. Anyway, she's bound to put her foot in her mouth in front of the wrong person sooner or later. I predict that she will out herself.

One would really hope she does indead put her foot in her mouth in front of the wrong person (hoping for her sponsoring rabbi). If she gets as far as the beit din w/o said foot-in-mouth moment, and then accidently outs herself, she will make a fool out of a rabbi, who spent the time to teach & guide her, and then whose own credibility will come into question, w/ his beit din b/c he didn't catch her lie. Thanks for your perspective though. ;)

[fundyfunland]

I went through the conversion process with a very kind and liberal Reformed Rabbi many years ago. I do not practice the faith, although it is the religion of some of my ancestors.

Please out the bitch.

TYVM

I'm thinking along the lines of....yeah...I should. You obviously understand the stringent conversion process, so you probably see where I'm coming from. It's an embarassment to the sponsoring rabbi, the duped beis din, and a slap in the face (haha! i got through their conversion process!) to any gerim who were unsuccessful...or even successful.

[Guest Anonymous]

My conversion was liberal and it lasted two years. The Aunties made mikvah for me to welcome me to the tribe. I nominally celebrate some holidays out of respect for my ancestors although I'm an atheist now. I do not pretend to be a practicing Jew. I may pepper my writing with Yiddish on occasion, but its partially based on the culture I grew up in, and the one I lived in for ten years of my life as a practicing Jew.

I would think if this woman were playing nun some RCC folks would be screamin' meanies and rushing to out her.

She is pretend frum, when I read her blog, I thought this is no way to honor a people who lost millions to shoah.

[fundyfunland]

I would think if this woman were playing nun some RCC folks would be screamin' meanies and rushing to out her.

She is pretend frum, when I read her blog, I thought this is no way to honor a people who lost millions to shoah.

My thoughts exactly. It's sheer disrespect and a fake way to live life.

So you think it might be a good idea to out? I'll probably do it anyway, I'm just looking for others' perspectives.

Tanks.

[Stickers]

If you feel like you should I think it's fine. She can pretend in her own personal life to be Jewish but I don't think it's right to let her deceive others.

[CanadianHippie]

I'm thinking along the lines of....yeah...I should. You obviously understand the stringent conversion process, so you probably see where I'm coming from. It's an embarassment to the sponsoring rabbi, the duped beis din, and a slap in the face (haha! i got through their conversion process!) to any gerim who were unsuccessful...or even successful.

Had to look up a few words in there because my understanding of Judaism doesn't extend into languages, but I agree completely. She is making a farce out of something that so many people hold as a serious belief and an important part of who they are. She doesn't deserve the privilege of converting. I'm on the side of outing her too. It pisses me off when people do stuff like this.

[Confused_by_religion]

I wouldn't do it.

From what I've heard, the conversion process is long and they don't make it exactly easy for you. She doesn't strike me as someone who has the "stick-to-it-iveness", especially if she's asked to study and accept views that contradict her own. She's too much of a picker and chooser for that. I guess if she works with the same rabbi(s) for such a long period of time, she is bound to slip up sooner or later, too.

[Maziky]

I've been wanting to do the same thing myself. OUT HER! I was nearly about to until she closed her blog, and there went all the proof I had.

She is incredibly dangerous, and she, and people like her, need to be stopped.

[fundyfunland]

I've been wanting to do the same thing myself. OUT HER! I was nearly about to until she closed her blog, and there went all the proof I had.

She is incredibly dangerous, and she, and people like her, need to be stopped.

Finally, someone who thinks truly like me. We must end her madness at once!! (enter evil laughter) :twisted: . But seriously.... do you know how to take screen shots of blog pages? That would be a start. She has her blog up now, so the proof is there. I want work on writing the letter, or finding out the various bais din to send the letters to. May have to ask some of my MO jewish friends for help.

Count me in! :twisted:

ps if you know how to do the screen shots, send them to me by email perhaps?

[dawn]

I wouldn't, and the reason is I don't think she'll actually do it - playing at being a Jew is fun because she gets to be different & non conformist without working hard at it. Once she sees that converting is actual hard work she'll decide it's not for her, and once she's around Jewish people a lot the novelty will wear off.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think Lina is definitely snarkworthy but I see no reason for 'Fjers' as a group to take on the task of 'outing' her.

As others have said, she will most likely 'out' herself pretty quickly if she goes ahead with her daft conversion scheme. Surely, if random bystanders on the internet see through her, then a proper Rabbi certainly would?

I don't understand how she is 'incredibly dangerous' - what do you mean by that, Maziky?

[easternabeille]

Where on her blog does it say she is going to lie during the conversion process (I can only handle her blog in small doses). For my two cents I would inform the necessary people about her lie as it would be potentially embarrassing to them in the long run if they found out she converted under false pretenses. Anyway why does she even want to convert if she still believes Jesus is the messiah as by definition that makes her Christian? Why lie to convert to a religion you don't really agree with? I know she and her fiance think they are special but this is ridiculous!

[FaustianSlip]

My perspective: I studied Judaism seriously for 2 years w/ a rabbi with the intention of converting. Ultimately, I decided I just couldn't live all the lifestyle that was expected of me, so I dropped out....of convert school :oops:

Ahem. To get more serious, I've had the same thought for much the same reasons. It took me ten years to actually be in one place long enough to go through the formal conversion process. That's a long freaking time, and I don't take what I did lightly at all. It pisses me off that Lina seems to think that conversion is like some kind of neat version of dress-ups, that it's all for her convenience, for her fulfillment. You know what, Lina? It's not actually all about you and what you want. Judaism is a community religion, and conversion affects klal Yisrael as much as the convert. If you lie your way through the beit din and actually convert, then get outed (and you will get outed, whether you do it yourself or someone does it for you), you don't just screw yourself over. There's any children you have, whose Jewish status could be revoked. There's your rabbi, whose credibility will go down the toilet. There's all of the people your rabbi has ever converted, all of whom would likely end up facing serious questions about the validity of their conversions (which affects their spouses and kids). And, of course, there's the community at large, the people with whom you'd have spent Shabbos and Yom Tov, who have taken the time to teach you about Yiddishkeit, to take you into their homes and helped you get to the beit din... and you'll have been lying right to their faces the entire time. Hell, you'll literally be starting your life as a Jew with a big, fat lie. Personally, I don't know how you can sleep nights, making plans like that. I know I couldn't. Something like that would devastate a liberal community; I can only imagine what it would do in an Orthodox synagogue, where people tend to be that much closer.

Anniec, see above for what I think is meant by "incredibly dangerous." Conversion is a hugely sensitive and divisive topic in the Jewish community right now, particularly in the Orthodox community. People in Israel have been having their conversions retroactively revoked over issues just like this; someone stops being observant or jumps up and says, "Surprise! I was Christian all along!" and rabbis who dislike the converting rabbi use it as an opportunity to make political hay by revoking that rabbi's conversions. But it doesn't just affect the rabbi and the convert (and really, even if it just screwed over the rabbi, that would be bad enough). The convert's kids' status comes into question, the marriage, if they're married to someone who was already Jewish, could be void, if the rabbi supervises things like the kashrut of restaurants in the community, those come into question.... Someone like Lina could, without exaggeration, tear a community apart if her scheme comes to fruition. It's devastating to the people in the community and what's worse, rabbis who witness this stuff are that much less likely to agree to sponsor other people for conversion, further reducing an already short list of options for those who want an Orthodox conversion. It's really bad news.

The thing is, I agree that Lina will be outed with or without help from someone here, but it makes me antsy to think about what could happen if that goes down post-conversion. Because even if she and Love can keep their mouths shut, once they have kids, that shit's over. The jig will be up the moment their first child cruises into school all excited to tell everyone about Yeshua. I don't really think she has the self control to get that far, personally, but the consequences of what could happen if she does are pretty bad, and not just for her and her immediate family.

easternabeille, she's gone on at length before about her and Tony's grand plans for an Orthodox conversion. When faced, repeatedly, in her comments section with people saying, "Lina, you know that no Orthodox rabbi is going to convert you as long as you maintain the belief that Jesus is the Messiah," she insisted that she had neither abandoned her belief in "Yeshua" (placating her fundie readers, fearful that she'd fallen off the wagon), nor was she going to abandon her dream of an Orthodox conversion. When pressed, she got very vague and avoided giving any direct answers as to how in the world she would find an Orthodox rabbi who would take her on if/when he found out about her beliefs, only insisted that she knew it could be done, because she knows people that have done it (by lying, either outright or by omission, as far as I can tell). You're right that it makes no sense, but then, she very rarely does.

[Deleted08]

Why doesn't she become a Messianic Jew? There's tons of them online and they seem to share the same belief.

[Dinorah]

I wouldn't do it.

From what I've heard, the conversion process is long and they don't make it exactly easy for you. She doesn't strike me as someone who has the "stick-to-it-iveness", especially if she's asked to study and accept views that contradict her own. She's too much of a picker and chooser for that. I guess if she works with the same rabbi(s) for such a long period of time, she is bound to slip up sooner or later, too.

Agree with this. It seems there's no way she can truly go through a proper conversion process, especially as she doesn't seem the person who likes the studying the most. Even if she persists, the people converting her will probably bust her.

[Guest Anonymous]

Anniec, see above for what I think is meant by "incredibly dangerous."

I was actually responding to Maziky's comment, copied below.

I've been wanting to do the same thing myself. OUT HER! I was nearly about to until she closed her blog, and there went all the proof I had.

She is incredibly dangerous, and she, and people like her, need to be stopped.

Maybe you are the same person, Faustian Slip, but otherwise I was just wondering about the reasoning behind a very new forum member wanting the FJ community to 'out' someone on the grounds that they are 'incredibly dangerous'.

I don't think Lina is dangerous to the FJ community, and as an atheist I don't personally believe there is any substance behind the Jewish faith (or any other faith), so while I dislike disrespect and lies generally, I don't personally feel any compulsion for FJ as a group to out Lina on this occasion.

Secretly, I'd also love to watch her out herself and tell the story on her blog.... :lol:

I can understand that the Rabbi and those involved in any fake conversion process might be angry at the waste of time and duplicity, but I still don't understand why what she is doing would be 'dangerous'. In the extremely unlikely circumstance that Lina bluffed her way through, why would the Rabbi be at fault, if he genuinely did his job to the best of his ability and just got taken in by a skilled liar? I can also see it would be very confusing for her kids to trot along to school espousing weird, non-Jewish beliefs, but again, I don't see why this would be 'dangerous' to anyone?

[MissNomer]

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea. I completely understand why you want to, but I just don't think it's necessary. As others have pointed out, she seems pretty unlikely to be willing to go through all of the hard work that is involved in the conversion process. Even if she did, I imagine that the rabbi she works with would see through her pretty easily... she'd surely slip up at some point or another in that long process. Also, her religious views have been constantly changing over the past year or two...maybe she actually will stop believing in "Yeshua" at some point along the road. I would only consider warning people if and when she actually starts trying to convert, if it seems like she's still planning on lying.

[Deleted03]

no.

I understand other Jews feeling disrespect for their religion, but 1st you do not represent every part of your religion. If this rabbi wants to convert her - and that is one big if - then he'll do it. If he does not ask if she believes in Jesus, then it's his loss - and stupidity. If they manage to not raise any red flag, then all the more to them.

I don't understand what terrible evil they would do that would involve us. I bet every day there is someone somewhere, even in the blogosphere that disrespects the Jewish religion or the Christians, Muslims, Pagan, etc. Will you go after each and everyone? Are you going to go into every Messianic Jew blog and send emails to the rabbis in their areas warning them that those people believe in Jesus and should never partake in their activities? How is that your call?

I think Lina put herself in a situation of failure. She has a blog repeating she believes in Jesus, even mentionned someone who lied. AFAIC rabbis ain't stupid and they can search for themselves. There is no need for a personal vendetta over a conversion process (no physical harm done, maybe some ego bruised, but hell).

I do not control your actions but at the very least, please do not do it in our name.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't think Lina is dangerous to the FJ community, and as an atheist I don't personally believe there is any substance behind the Jewish faith (or any other faith), so while I dislike disrespect and lies generally, I don't personally feel any compulsion for FJ as a group to out Lina on this occasion.

I agree with anniec as far as Free Jinger is not a hive vagina. The OP should by all means do whatever it is they think is ethical and necessary, but that's their decision and not sanctioned by everyone else here. We're members of a forum that rarely reaches a consensus.

I disagree a bit because whether or not one believes in a God, I think there is a strong cultural and ethnic Jewish identity/tradition that should be respected. (As should all such minority cultures.) There are lots of secular Jews.

I hate to fall back on my Southern upbringing, but I can't think of a better way to say it than - what Lina is doing is incredibly tacky.

**Edited for untidiness in my quote.

[haveapicniclife]

I don't think it's necessary to "out her" and I wouldn't stand behind it. Trust me, she'll out herself in her own time. No intervention needed on our part.

[Beeks]

Hey Faustian and others who have converted, my understanding was that a routine question from the bet din was whether you had left your old religion behind, including any belief in Jesus. Was that true in your experience? I can't see Lina outright lying if she were asked directly and I don't think she's stated an intention to do that. For that reason, I would not "out" her. She will take care of it herself, I'm sure.

[maybeizfundie]

Reading through her blog, I haven't gotten any indication that she intends to lie in order to formally convert.

In my completely unprofessional opinion, I think it's quite possible she might ultimately drop the "Yeshua" thing altogether, in which case she'd be converting genuinely anyway.

Regardless of my feelings about her particular brand of Messianic practice (Messianism??) I'm not sure how "outing" would be necessary. She's not hiding her Messianic belief on her blog. In that we she's already "out".