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Catey

Planned Parenthood Shooter

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Catey

So it would seem there is some nut who is an "active Shooter" at the planned parenthood in Colorado Springs.

Seems to be a rather fluid situation but takes it back to the original topic of how INSANE people who claim to be Pro-Life can be.

If this is a case of yet another Nut Job who feels that he is saving the fertilized eggs I would love to understand the logic behind killing actual people to further his Pro-Life agenda.

Why? Someone please explain to me how the heck you can be both Pro-Life and Pro-Death Penalty at the same time?? How liberating it must be to live a life completely devoid of logic.

Planned Parenthood IS not just a "Baby Killing Factory" Why oh why must people refuse to educate themselves prior to taking a stand on something that they clearly do not understand...

What the actually do:

Abortion is a measly 3% of what they do there.

16% of what they do is Cancer Screening and prevention.

35% is CONTRACEPTION, you know that thing that you can do to the heathens that will stop them from needing an Abortion in the first place.

I don't care what religion you belong to, there are so VERY few women who just leave the number of children that they have up to God's will. If that were the case you would see families with WAY more than 5 or 6 kids.  Fertility issues my ass, more like you went for it and now that you are knee deep in diapers you suddenly are rethinking your whole "his will" stance.

Don't get me wrong, I am with you, I am a big fan of controlling the number of mini me's I plan on setting on the world. Just drop the crap and let people be!!

Leave families to decide what their family should look like and go home and make the family that you have always wanted, No kids, 12 cats whatever your deal is, it's all good.

If your God is so Big and Scary with SEVERE wrath then leave it to him to deal with the sinners, I mean an eternity of suffering in Hell seems worse than anything that your micro brain can dream up.

NOTE: Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, please forgive my Noobishness and move or delete or take away my weekly jellybean.

 

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Toothfairy

The Republicans hate poor people. Especially poor women. Which is why they started this whole planned parenthood bs. For money, to shut on the poor, and to get people riled up. Funny because a lot of religions are against ivf, yet couples still use ivf.  Stem cell research and all this is other research comes from aborted fetuses. 

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Catey

Thanks for the link, for some reason when I try to view the CNN site from this laptop it keeps telling me content not available in your location....

 

Oh, 3 Police Officers injured as well. It is a never ending cycle of violence these days it seems.

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apandaaries

I hate active shooters.  I hate people who target Planned Parenthood.

If anyone is interested in reading up on how the foundations for this kind of violence were laid, Frank Schaeffer has a lot of very interesting information: http://www.salon.com/2014/12/24/my_horrible_right_wing_past_confessions_of_a_one_time_religious_right_icon/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/07/the-actual-pro-life-conspiracy-that-handed-america-to-the-tea-party-far-religious-right-an-insiders-perspective/

He also has a book, Crazy for God.  Full confession: I've not yet read it, but it's on my winter break reading list.

He and his father (amongst others) helped politicize abortions and turn them into a rallying point.  Before their efforts, being anti-abortion was considered a fairly weird Catholic thing tied to the Pope and other anti-papist views.  

Very curious to see how this ends.  I read on one site that the shooter was a white man seemingly in his 40s.  Wonder if he's Christian, and if so, wonder if he'll be labeled a terrorist or a lone wolf.  Sigh.

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Black Aliss

If this is a case of yet another Nut Job who feels that he is saving the fertilized eggs I would love to understand the logic behind killing actual people to further his Pro-Life agenda.

Why? Someone please explain to me how the heck you can be both Pro-Life and Pro-Death Penalty at the same time?? How liberating it must be to live a life completely devoid of logic.

I can almost see the logic in favor of the death penalty--that if you've done something utterly heinous that cannot possibly be atoned for in any other way, then execution is just retribution. Almost. I do not support the death penalty in any case, although I might be persuaded to make an exception for serious white collar crimes because that's the only situation where I think execution might serve as a deterrent to others.

Where I really don't see the logic is how you can be pro-life from conception to birth and then it's the child's own tough luck to be born to a mother who shouldn't have gotten pregnant. And then, too, denying access to birth control to ensure that more women end up pregnant when they don't want to be.

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MyMilkshake

I don't understand how you can say "Life is sacred", only to murder people. 
Don't believe in abortion? Don't want to have one? Then DON'T HAVE ONE. You have that choice. Other people get to chose for themselves what is right for them. Isn't choice great?
PP is not some abortion factory. It's where people get STD testing, affordable birth control, pap tests and breast exams. And pregnancy testing and  pregnancy counseling where a woman can make her own decisions in a pressure free, unbiased environment (that's always been my experience anyways).

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CarolinaCat

First off, I am pro-choice and believe in safe, legal abortions for everyone, no questions asked. I was pro-life when I was still a born-again Christian, though, so I like to think I can understand their perspective.

However, I am not sure what the situation in Colorado Springs is. Of all the news sources I've looked at so far, none have confirmed that Planned Parenthood was the intended target. In fact, they've all made a point of saying that the Planned Parenthood building is on a very busy street, in close proximity to (as in, within walking distance of) at least one bank, a grocery store inside a shopping center, and other businesses and healthcare facilities. Apparently, the gunman (or shooters?) barricaded himself (or themselves?) inside the PP and exchanged fire with police officers outside.

I am unsure if the witnesses and reporters don't want to admit that Planned Parenthood was the target, if they just don't know, or if PP really wasn't the target after all, and that location is simply where the shooter ended up after trying to escape from a robbery (or whatever) gone bad.

It will be interesting to see how the situation unfolds and how different media outlets present information.

My gut feeling is that PP was the target, but my gut is often wrong.

Most of all, I hope no one is seriously injured or dead. I hope the witnesses, shooting victims, and possible hostages all have speedy recoveries and experience no lasting damage. What a horrible way to have to spend your Black Friday. It breaks my heart that there are people in this world who are so ignorant, hateful, and blind to reality that they feel the need to go out and hurt their fellow man like that.

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Bethella

I hate active shooters.  I hate people who target Planned Parenthood.

If anyone is interested in reading up on how the foundations for this kind of violence were laid, Frank Schaeffer has a lot of very interesting information: http://www.salon.com/2014/12/24/my_horrible_right_wing_past_confessions_of_a_one_time_religious_right_icon/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/07/the-actual-pro-life-conspiracy-that-handed-america-to-the-tea-party-far-religious-right-an-insiders-perspective/

He also has a book, Crazy for God.  Full confession: I've not yet read it, but it's on my winter break reading list.

He and his father (amongst others) helped politicize abortions and turn them into a rallying point.  Before their efforts, being anti-abortion was considered a fairly weird Catholic thing tied to the Pope and other anti-papist views.  

Very curious to see how this ends.  I read on one site that the shooter was a white man seemingly in his 40s.  Wonder if he's Christian, and if so, wonder if he'll be labeled a terrorist or a lone wolf.  Sigh.

We discussed Crazy for God in our short-lived book club a couple of years ago. http://www.freejinger.org/topic/15863-book-club-6-crazy-for-god-by-frank-schaeffer/#comment-558751

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apandaaries

We discussed Crazy for God in our short-lived book club a couple of years ago. http://www.freejinger.org/topic/15863-book-club-6-crazy-for-god-by-frank-schaeffer/#comment-558751

Oh my!  Maybe he's not as influential as those articles have made him appear...though I've still not read the book.  It sounds like they were trying to really find a way to build a solid voter base after the relative social chaos of the late 60s and early 70s, and abortion eventually helped galvanize the voters.  

I can't believe this is still going on.  It's been hours.  How terrifying.

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Jeebusismycopilot

I don't understand how you can say "Life is sacred", only to murder people. 
Don't believe in abortion? Don't want to have one? Then DON'T HAVE ONE. You have that choice. Other people get to chose for themselves what is right for them. Isn't choice great?
PP is not some abortion factory. It's where people get STD testing, affordable birth control, pap tests and breast exams. And pregnancy testing and  pregnancy counseling where a woman can make her own decisions in a pressure free, unbiased environment (that's always been my experience anyways).

This is how I feel about so many things. Don't like abortion? Don't have one. Don't like gay marriage? Don't have one. But just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else shouldn't be allowed to have access to these things. It's like when people start petitions demanding books be removed from libraries because they don't like what they contain. Again - don't like it? Don't read it. But don't stop others from reading them because you don't agree with it. 

 

As for PP - I used them a few times when I was younger.  I went there instead of my pediatrician when I had some issues "down there" and I was too embarrassed to ask my mother to book an appointment for me. So I went to the clinic. They were awesome. 

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Jana814

 

 

As for PP - I used them a few times when I was younger.  I went there instead of my pediatrician when I had some issues "down there" and I was too embarrassed to ask my mother to book an appointment for me. So I went to the clinic. They were awesome. 

That's great that you went their. 

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Catey

I just finished reading link (not the book) pretty interesting stuff, really sick in a way though if you think of all the killings, and threats and assults and harassment people working at these clinics have dealt with over the years all for a concept designed to enflame for political gain. I was in high school when the abortion clinic here was bombed and a bunch of us bright eyed and bushy tailed liberal save the world (or the cause of the day) ditched school to go down to the gathering/protest about it. Of course there is a group of assholes there as well (after the bombing took out the building so why they were still protesting I have no idea) so we start engaging with them, and I hear my name, figures.... My Freaking youth pastor was there with a sign with a dead baby on it...  and I just kept chanting at the cars, Honk for choice/

 

Well my point is I remember how scary it was to know that type of danger would come to a rather liberal city like I thought mine was so I really feel for the people that are both directly and indirectly involved, especially all the people that have nothing to do with any abortion or agenda.

 

 

 

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Cleopatra7

Oh my!  Maybe he's not as influential as those articles have made him appear...though I've still not read the book.  It sounds like they were trying to really find a way to build a solid voter base after the relative social chaos of the late 60s and early 70s, and abortion eventually helped galvanize the voters.  

I can't believe this is still going on.  It's been hours.  How terrifying.

Francis Schaeffer was certainly influential, especially in terms of getting white evangelicals into the anti-abortion movement (when Roe v. Wade first came down, most white evangelicals were in favor of it; now it's seen as the Worst Thing Ever). However, I've always gotten the impression that Jr. was always just riding his father's coattails like a lot of other children of famous people, and simply helped his father out with whatever he happened to be doing at the time. I have no doubt that Jr. has plenty of dirt on major figures in the religious right, but he was never able to establish himself as a major figure in the way Franklin Graham did, which given how much of a douche Graham is, isn't such a bad thing.

Going back on topic, I have a feeling that Planned Parenthood was the target of this shooting, simply because the anti-Planned Parenthood sentiment is so high in many quarters that violence is practically inevitable, whether of the illegal or legal variety (i.e., the constant fight to de-fund PP, the "selling dead baby parts" hysteria, the ridiculous code laws PP has to follow). I suppose we'll know soon enough.

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Rachel333

I think it's probably not a coincidence that this is happening near a Planned Parenthood, but from what I've read it hasn't been confirmed yet as it's part of a larger complex.

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Cleopatra7

FJers might be interested in the case of John Salvi, who engaged in a shooting spree at two Planned Parenthood shootings in Brookline, MA:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/aron/salvi021996.htm

While Salvi appears to have suffered from mental illness and delusions to some extent, he was also very religious and active in the anti-abortion movement. It's quite possible that the two fed off each other, which lead to the violence. There's a good PBS program on Salvi called "Murder on Abortion Row" which you can find on Youtube.

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Sad
violynn

.......

 Wonder if he's Christian, and if so, wonder if he'll be labeled a terrorist or a lone wolf.  Sigh.

If he's a WM Christian I can bloody well promise you there won't be any Republicans calling ALL Christians PP clinic shooters, Fox news won't be interviewing Christians on the street asking them why they aren't decrying his actions, Christians won't be afraid of violence enacted on them because of that shooters murderous stance and Trump won't insist Christians were celebrating in the streets.

Also pretty sure we'll have a post soon explaining to us how THIS shooter didn't kill as many as those other evil religious terrorists.

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jaelh

This is how I feel about so many things. Don't like abortion? Don't have one. Don't like gay marriage? Don't have one. But just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else shouldn't be allowed to have access to these things. 

Yes but.....

At least - if you really truly believe that a foetus is a fully realised human, with the same rights and humanity as every person walking around, then I understand why people do get as carried away about it as they do.  If you genuinely believe that abortion is murder, then the only moral thing to do is to try and stop it.  Truly. 

I mean - and I'm sorry to Godwin myself, but eh - if the Nazi's were around today and said to other countries: look, you don't like the Jew-killing?  Don't kill them. But we'll take care of what goes on within our own borders, thanks very much.  Would that fly? (Ignoring for a moment that, you know, that's pretty much what happened in the early days of the regime).  It'd be a fucking appalling dereliction of the moral obligations incumbent on those people who realised that this killing of people - even if others didn't recognise their humanity - was wholesale murder.  

"It's not your business"/just don't do it yourself doesn't work for a whole lot of things.

Now - I don't think, in all honestly, that everyone taking a pro-life position genuinely feels this way.  There are too many inconsistencies: it'd raise to equivalent levels every miscarriage, even if you'd not known you were pregnant, for example.  (And there are plenty that haven't necessarily thought deeply about their position and instinctively feel its correctness, rather than having worked through the inconsistencies).  

And if you do feel this way.. "Just don't do it yourself" isn't enough of an answer.  

fwiw: I do think the ambiguity of the humanity of the foetus should change the balance of the equation, and I come down on your side of the debate.  But I think we owe people's beliefs* greater respect than a simple "just don't do that" 
*caveat: not murderous, abusive, protest-women-at-clinic actions, hell no. if the baseline moral imperative is "do no harm" - all action has to be consistent with that imperative. 

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RosyDaisy

Per CNN, 1 police officer and 2 civilians dead, 11 people injured. Crazy ass SOB just signed his own death certificate. FYI, I am anti death penalty.

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Catey

If only the fetuses had been armed......:annoyed:

This will be yet another reason why we need less abortion and more  guns, 

The Political spin masters are going to spin this faster than Josh Duggars head at the beach....

The only thing worse than a tragedy is watching everyone using it to advance their message,  especially one that is twisted and self serving,

IF this is a Pro Life nutjob watch how quiet some people will become, other than, the pro gun lobby.

Again IF this is what that was then you can spread some of that blame to all far right nut jobs who make a place in the world that incubates hate and intolerance for other people to just live their own freaking life so long as it causes others no harm

 

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bashfulpixie

I will never, ever understand the logic behind killing people when you're pro-life. Shouldn't the human that's already here be worth just as much as the fertilized cells that can't survive on their own?

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apandaaries

Yes but.....

At least - if you really truly believe that a foetus is a fully realised human, with the same rights and humanity as every person walking around, then I understand why people do get as carried away about it as they do.  If you genuinely believe that abortion is murder, then the only moral thing to do is to try and stop it.  Truly. 

So the "only moral thing to do is try and stop it" by murdering living, breathing human beings?  I don't want to quote too much nor engage in too much debate on this heated topic, but let's not justify crazed shooters at a health clinic, eh?  

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Cleopatra7

I will never, ever understand the logic behind killing people when you're pro-life. Shouldn't the human that's already here be worth just as much as the fertilized cells that can't survive on their own?

Anti-abortion activists would say that "unborn life" epitomize innocence and should be protected at all costs, whereas abortion doctors and nurses are essentially mass murderers. I remember reading "First Things" after George Tiller was shot and there was a roundtable discussion about the use of violence in the anti-abortion movement. The authors quite obviously were glad that Tiller was dead, but couldn't say it outright and maintain a "respectable" facade. This is the problem with the "life begins at conception" viewpoint. If you honestly believe this is true, then it leads to all kinds of strange questions. For example, if life begins at conception, shouldn't all miscarriages or even heavy periods be given full burials? Does this mean that heaven, or alternately hell, is full of zygotes and embryos and such? Do aborted fetuses go to heaven or hell? If the former, isn't it actually better for them to go straight to heaven, rather than run the risk of being born and committing some horrible sin? What about all of the miscarriages that happen naturally? If each fertilized egg represents a new, unique human life that must be carried to term, why isn't the female body designed better so fewer miscarriages occur? And so on.

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