University Yoga Class Cancelled Because Cultural Appropriation

[VelociRapture]

I saw it on my facebook feed as well and went to the facebook page for the University's Centre for Student's with Disabilities (the ones who shut down the classes) They originally make a statement that says:(bolding my emphasis)

 

 They began to receive a lot of backlash for this decision and then started to comment on this post stating their reason for ending the class:

 Now, here's the thing. If they paused the classes in order to re-evaluate, that's one thing. But NOW they are stating it is simply from lack of attendance. If that was the case initially, then why not state that? From all reports the class had "up to" 60 people (and I know that doesn't mean it had 60) but it means there were people there and there was interest. So their new position of "no one attended" simply doesn't make sense. If no one was attending, then there would be no need to cancel it, as it basically came to a natural end. 

 

As for cultural appropriation, we have had many meetings and workshops about dealing with cultural sensitivities. I am  a  grade one teacher and we are working on ways to share our culture and heritage in ways that are positive and educational without being hurtful. We have to walk a fine line because some parents may take offence. What is usually the case however, is the child and family of culture x is happy to share with the class and the "uptight pinot swilling soccer mom" (I can't think of a better term - it's what we use at work-  shows you how often it comes up!) is the one screaming "think of the children! what about cultural appropriation!We are making a mockery of x!1!1!ELEVENTY!!!"  We live in Canada. It is a cultural mosaic. Heck, we live in Toronto. It's a hive of multiculturalism and our classrooms, businesses, churches/temples, community centres etc are all examples of the wonderful cultural mix in this region. 

I am Christian yet I went to a Jewish school from junior kindergarten through grade 5. I was given dreidels and we made our own menorahs. I used to go to my friend's house for Seder. I still to this day light my Menorah and say the prayers and I am getting giddy and hungry just thinking about latkes (my friend's mum makes the NUMMIEST latkes and I am so excited she is bringing them over next weekend!!) 

Vancouver BC has a large population of Chinese and Scottish decedents.  Because Chinese New Year and Robbie Burns Day are  usually celebrated around the same time, they have Gung Haggis Fat Choy. A unique mishmash of both cultures celebrated together. Is that cultural appropriation? I think instead it is a fun celebration of human spirit and really good food (yes, even haggis. I love me some haggis!...don't judge :P)  

Is it ok for everyone to dress in green, wear "Kiss me I'm Irish" buttons and drink themselves into a stupor on St. Paddy's day? (I am keen on any holiday that gives me an excuse to drink Bailey's for breakfast. I'm looking at you too, Christmas!) And if that's ok, then what about getting legless on tequila for Cinco de Mayo?  

Musicians and artists have been borrowing from cultures for centuries. Is that wrong? 

 

We are all influenced by our experiences - whether through travel, education, or family traditions. 

 

 

About the underlined:

I'm just one person and I don't intend to speak on behalf of anyone other than myself here. . . but speaking from an American perspective, I do find it a bit disrespectful when non-Irish Americans use St. Patrick's Day as an excuse to get completely wasted. It feeds into the American stereotypes that began during the 1800's that the Irish are stupid, drunken, and a complete waste of space - that we didn't belong and weren't welcome and should just go back to Ireland to die of starvation.

My mother's family is 100% Irish descent - we came over before, during, and after the great famine - and my ancestors faced a great deal of hate and discrimination from non-Irish Americans when they arrived here. At times, it does feel a bit like a slap in the face to see people using my family's heritage as an excuse to get drunk. If people are interested in the culture and the meaning behind the holiday - that's a different story. I don't mind people learning a bit and having fun at the same time. It's really just the people who use it as an excuse to get wasted without bothering to learn anything at all.

What really truly bothers me though is when I see merchandise in stores that promote those stereotypes - like shirts proclaiming "Irish Yoga" and underneath that stick figures falling over drunk. That bothers me a helluva lot more than random people using the day as an excuse to party. I hate the idea that people are making money off of the stereotypes my ancestors had to struggle against to survive.

That said, I think that this type of "borrowing" is seen as more acceptable because the Irish have permeated into American culture so much - it's now the second most populous ancestry in the US, right behind German (which also makes up part of my heritage). We've had a Catholic Irish President (Kennedy) and the Irish haven't faced massive discrimination in a very long time. Not only that, but the people of Ireland have recently (I think starting in the 1990's) started celebrating the holiday in a more American style - with parades and festivals and the pubs staying open. It used to be a much more solemn occasion where most people would go to Church. It only became secularized in America because the Irish felt they had to show their strength in numbers (via parades) when faced with mass discrimination.

I think that most people would be ok with borrowing from other cultures, but only when credit is given to the people who earned it and the proper respect is shown. If you do Yoga without learning anything about Indian culture or giving credit to the Hindu religion, that isn't ok - if you learn a bit and understand that simply doing the asanas isn't the same as real Yoga, that seems a bit more acceptable to me.

Again, I'm not Hindu or Indian so I honestly don't think I have a right to say either way in this specific case. But I do think that education and respect are key.

[nausicaa]

 

Unlike the Abrahamic religions, Native American religions were never meant to be universal, but were particular to a specific group of people living in a specific location. If Native Americans say that they want to keep their religious rituals to themselves, I think we should respect their decision.

I think the problem with this statement, and a problem I see with cultural appropriation concerns in general, is that you are speaking of Native Americans and Native American religions as if they are some homogeneous mass (unless I'm misreading). There are Native Americans who don't mind teaching others and having others engage in their religious rituals. Are they not "Native" enough for taking this stance? Are they traitors for having a minority (and I'm not even sure if it is a minority) opinion?

I doubt there will ever be a unanimous opinion from the millions of people who identify as Native American. 

[Alicja]

I don't know if it helps anyone, but Amandla Stenberg made a really great video about cultural appropriation. You can find it here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KJRRSB_XA

[Cleopatra7]

I think the problem with this statement, and a problem I see with cultural appropriation concerns in general, is that you are speaking of Native Americans and Native American religions as if they are some homogeneous mass (unless I'm misreading). There are Native Americans who don't mind teaching others and having others engage in their religious rituals. Are they not "Native" enough for taking this stance? Are they traitors for having a minority (and I'm not even sure if it is a minority) opinion?

I doubt there will ever be a unanimous opinion from the millions of people who identify as Native American. 

I didn't mean to suggest that Native American religions are monolithic, which is why I made a point of mentioning that it is Lakota religion in in particular that is being mined by New Age enthusiasts. I tried to find a better term, but this seems to be the one being used by scholars and I guess from there you can specify by tribe or other affiliation. If you're interested in this topic, I suggest you read the works of George Tinker, who has written extensively about the cultural appropriation of Native American religion. He has said that many native people are used to being open and courteous to a fault, even if it's to their own detriment, especially when the people in question are white. Because of the cultural devastation that has occurred among Native Americans, he says that they need to protect their own patrimony. Obviously, Tinker is one voice out of many, but he is an important leader and many tribes are following his advice. In the 1960s and 70s when the appropriation of Native American spirituality really began, most actual Native Americans couldn't even practice their religions, while white New Age authors like Carlos Castenda and Lynn Andrews became multi-millionares selling false stories about their supposed "initiations" as shamans and medicine workers. Don't you see a disconnect there? It's like how rock and roll could only become widely popular when white artists sang black cover songs. Everyone knows Elvis Presley but what about "Big Mama" Thorton who cut "Hound Dog" before he did.

I think part of the problem for me is that it seems like non-whites have to always filter themselves through a white gaze, and non-white culture is only valuable to the extent that white people approve of it. Many minorities in the U.S. do not have control over how they or their cultures are used or portrayed in the media, which is itself a sign of weakness. As I mentioned upthread, Chinese culture was generally viewed by nineteenth century Americans as degenerate and heathen, which is what led to the Chinese Exclusion Act. However, about a hundred years later, Chinese culture, especially Confucianism, was lauded as a reason why Chinese students did well and were a "model minority," unlike those lazy black and brown people. Had Confucianism changed much in that ensuing time period? Not really, but the political and racial situation had, which made Confucianism seem like a positive social force for the white status quo. Or take Buddhism, which was also considered to be a backward religion by most nineteenth century Americans. Once white hippies and beatniks "discovered" it in the mid twentieth century, suddenly it wasn't so backwards anymore, although it meant airbrushing Asian American Buddhists out of the picture. 

 

[2xx1xy1JD]

It's the latter I'm afraid. As it is in my school. The ones who get their panties in a bunch are usually the pinot swillers who sit around and find ways to be incensed and offended on behalf of others (who never asked them in the first place!)

I went into a whole rant on the PC thread in the Wide World of Snark section about this.

No, you don't get to appropriate outrage on behalf of someone else.  Given someone else a voice so that they have a platform for their own grievances is great.  Disregarding their voices entirely and replacing them with your voice is not.  There is a difference.

I saw it on my facebook feed as well and went to the facebook page for the University's Centre for Student's with Disabilities (the ones who shut down the classes) They originally make a statement that says:(bolding my emphasis)

 

 They began to receive a lot of backlash for this decision and then started to comment on this post stating their reason for ending the class:

 Now, here's the thing. If they paused the classes in order to re-evaluate, that's one thing. But NOW they are stating it is simply from lack of attendance. If that was the case initially, then why not state that? From all reports the class had "up to" 60 people (and I know that doesn't mean it had 60) but it means there were people there and there was interest. So their new position of "no one attended" simply doesn't make sense. If no one was attending, then there would be no need to cancel it, as it basically came to a natural end. 

 

As for cultural appropriation, we have had many meetings and workshops about dealing with cultural sensitivities. I am  a  grade one teacher and we are working on ways to share our culture and heritage in ways that are positive and educational without being hurtful. We have to walk a fine line because some parents may take offence. What is usually the case however, is the child and family of culture x is happy to share with the class and the "uptight pinot swilling soccer mom" (I can't think of a better term - it's what we use at work-  shows you how often it comes up!) is the one screaming "think of the children! what about cultural appropriation!We are making a mockery of x!1!1!ELEVENTY!!!"  We live in Canada. It is a cultural mosaic. Heck, we live in Toronto. It's a hive of multiculturalism and our classrooms, businesses, churches/temples, community centres etc are all examples of the wonderful cultural mix in this region. 

I am Christian yet I went to a Jewish school from junior kindergarten through grade 5. I was given dreidels and we made our own menorahs. I used to go to my friend's house for Seder. I still to this day light my Menorah and say the prayers and I am getting giddy and hungry just thinking about latkes (my friend's mum makes the NUMMIEST latkes and I am so excited she is bringing them over next weekend!!) 

Vancouver BC has a large population of Chinese and Scottish decedents.  Because Chinese New Year and Robbie Burns Day are  usually celebrated around the same time, they have Gung Haggis Fat Choy. A unique mishmash of both cultures celebrated together. Is that cultural appropriation? I think instead it is a fun celebration of human spirit and really good food (yes, even haggis. I love me some haggis!...don't judge :P)  

Is it ok for everyone to dress in green, wear "Kiss me I'm Irish" buttons and drink themselves into a stupor on St. Paddy's day? (I am keen on any holiday that gives me an excuse to drink Bailey's for breakfast. I'm looking at you too, Christmas!) And if that's ok, then what about getting legless on tequila for Cinco de Mayo?  

Musicians and artists have been borrowing from cultures for centuries. Is that wrong? 

 

We are all influenced by our experiences - whether through travel, education, or family traditions. 

 

 

Another Torontonian here!

One of the awesome things about our city is the fact that it is so multicultural.  If kids can learn about each other's cultures, that's amazing, and it's also a natural, organic form of learning and cultural sharing.  In other words - it's the exact opposite of "cultural appropriation". 

 

[polecat]

I went into a whole rant on the PC thread in the Wide World of Snark section about this.

No, you don't get to appropriate outrage on behalf of someone else.  Given someone else a voice so that they have a platform for their own grievances is great.  Disregarding their voices entirely and replacing them with your voice is not.  There is a difference.

Another Torontonian here!

One of the awesome things about our city is the fact that it is so multicultural.  If kids can learn about each other's cultures, that's amazing, and it's also a natural, organic form of learning and cultural sharing.  In other words - it's the exact opposite of "cultural appropriation". 

 

Sort-of-kind-of off-topic-ish ... 

But EVERYone becomes Irish on St. Patrick's Day in the US. I am of  actual Irish ancestry (thanks to one set of grandparents), and I get a bit of a giggle out of how everyone (but EVERYone) is downing the corned beef and cabbage ... which isn't even Irish but Jewish ... because the Irish immigrants often lived in predominately Jewish areas and purchased from Jewish butchers and adopted some of their customs. Hence ... corned beef and cabbage on St. Patrick's Day.  Thanks to my Jewish grandfather, I feel absolutely zero guilt about appropriating corned beef (I have one in my freezer as I type just waiting for me to get my hands on it).  But seriously ... this is a great example of cultural sharing (the corned beef, I mean).

 

 

 

[J'Lurker]

I feel like this belongs here:
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/11/23/now-eating-ethnic-food-is-cultural-appropriation

[December]

I don't think that a yoga class where it's just stretching exercises is some sort of horrible cultural appropriation... if they were trying to include religious/mystic aspects or something in the class, I'd understand the upset more. That said, I've seen people coming out of yoga classes wearing shirts that say something like "namaste," and it seems kind of silly. I could see where people from the areas where yoga originated would be offended by those who think paying a lot of money to stretch in a studio with the heat cranked up for hot yoga grants automatically them some deep sense of spirituality. I think it'd be nice for people trying to build their spirituality with yoga to acknowledge and learn about the area and tradition it came from. But for most people I know who do yoga, it's simply an exercise class, like spinning. Okay, maybe spinning's a bad example... pretty sure that's more like a religion to some people I've known!  

Also, everything's appropriated from somewhere/someone else if you dig back far enough. Plenty of modern day white, European-descended Christians celebrate holidays that take their traditions from earlier Celtic and Germanic polytheistic tribes. There's no sort of "default" culture that hasn't been influenced by plenty of others over the years.

[VodouDoll]

I think the comparison between doing yoga for exercise and celebrating Christmas secularly is a good one. I've done yoga for a long time because it's good exercise, and I choose classes with teachers who approach it that way. The few times I've been in a class where the teacher leads everyone in Hindu prayers, I've felt uncomfortable. I don't know what those words are or what they mean, they don't belong to my tradition, and it feels weird to me to sit in a room with a bunch of white people phonetically chanting words we don't understand. To me, there's a difference between those two types of yoga practice. One does feel like cultural appropriation, whereas the other is just a workout.

[2xx1xy1JD]

It's time to post this video again:

[Howl]

OK, Ghandi does yoga is brilliant, as is Crossfitters do Yoga.  

I took my first yoga class in the early 1970s.  My yoga instructor quit to pursue Primal Scream therapy, if that helps you place this moment in time.   For yoga, that train has left the station, the horse has left the barn, that ship has sailed.   Most yoga was introduced to the west by, you know, YOGIS from INDIA! Yoga has had 40 years or more to be adapted to and incorporated into American culture.  Very little yoga  as currently taught (as illustrated perfectly by "Ghandi does yoga" satire vid) contains any Hindu religious element.  

The primary teacher of my teachers (Mr. Iyengar and his children) had no compunctions about teaching westerners; they certainly had a sense of yoga as a universal practice.  For those who chose to practice more deeply, there was the option of studying the yoga Sutras and other works about yoga and its development. 

Sorry, I'm just not feeling elements of cultural mis-appropriation re: yoga.  As they say here in Texas, don't be so open minded your brains fall out. 

 

 

 

[Maggie Mae]

This came across my facebook today. 

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/11/26/nunavut-woman-accuses-uk-fashion-label-of-appropriating-inuit-design.html

Which I think is a pretty clear case of appropriation. No one paid royalties to the family for the design. Not even attributed. Not cool. 

Yoga, on the other hand, doesn't seem like appropriation to me.  I mean, yoga in the United States is obviously something completely different than traditional yoga. Or maybe I don't want to feel bad about doing yoga. Ugh.

[2xx1xy1JD]

This came across my facebook today. 

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/11/26/nunavut-woman-accuses-uk-fashion-label-of-appropriating-inuit-design.html

Which I think is a pretty clear case of appropriation. No one paid royalties to the family for the design. Not even attributed. Not cool. 

Yoga, on the other hand, doesn't seem like appropriation to me.  I mean, yoga in the United States is obviously something completely different than traditional yoga. Or maybe I don't want to feel bad about doing yoga. Ugh.

Yeah, I'd go beyond "cultural appropriation" and just call it "stealing a design without permission".  It's cultural appropriation the way that selling knock-off Louis Vuitton bags is cultural appropriation.

[Jeebusismycopilot]

 

@Jeebusismycopilot

I am going to introduce Gung Haggis Fat Choy to my part of Thailand, which has a large Thai-Chinese community, and a lot of expat Scots - they get haggis flown in for Burns Night, but this could be epic! Is wearing tartan mandatory?

Not mandatory but totally welcome! It seems like an "anything goes" type of scene. I have never been, sadly but friends have and said it was amazing.  They have traditions from both cultures tied together. And things like haggis wontons and dim sum. They read poetry (naturally, as it is a Burns celebration!) and sing Auld Lang Syne which is perfect as the words are Burns and it is Chinese New Year. They have music and make it a real cultural exchange. It looks amazing. 

[nelliebelle1197]

This is totally annoying and so is all the rationalizing of political correctness run amok. I have practiced Iyengar yoga for 14 years under teachers certified in India under BKS Iyengar himself.  My favorite teacher, a 67 year old man from New York who calls himself a Hindjew, spends a month in Pune with Iyengar's son Prashant every year. Asana, which is only  one limb of the 8-fold path of yoga, which is core to Hindu teaching,  has only been practiced in its modern form for about 100 years.  Ancient asanas were basically seated postures to improve meditative practice.

BKS himself, who really helped pioneer (with his guruji Jois) the modern practice of hatha and asana and who brought it to the west from Pune after curing childhood illness under the guidance of Jois, made many trips to the west and two of his most senior teachers and students, Manuso Manus from San Francisco and Patricia Walden from Boston, are white and western.  BKS did not think yoga belonged only to India and he did his damndest in his 90 plus years to show everyone a way to access the eightfold path.

Not all Hindus practice asana outside of meditation. Not all people who practice asana are Hindu. Asana is not yoga, but merely a limb of yoga, and calling for the cancelling of these kind of classes, taught for special needs kids by a teacher who agreed to do it for free, shows a complete misunderstanding of yoga. One of the key limbs of yoga is ashima- do no harm. Taking asana from those kids and causing such discord is causing harm and not yogic at all.

I read through the Hindu American Foundation's position on these matters. Their disgust seems to  be (rightfully) at the commercialization of yoga (see Bikram the Evil and those ridiculous 200 hour certifications), and the inability of people to see that yoga and asana are not the same thing, not at westerners practicing asana.

Yoga is a spiritual discipline rooted in Hindu philosophy and is universally available to anyone without any coercion, pressure, or requirement to change one’s religion. Asana is a component of Yoga, albeit the most physically-centered part, and means pose, posture, or manner of sitting. Asana, or postural practice, has been shown to tremendously benefit muscle tone, flexibility, blood pressure, back pain and arthritis, and the immune system. Studies have also shown that for children, the practice of asana may work to reduce Attention Deficit Disorder (ADHD), improve general behavior and grades.

HAF quote

 

“Asanas are not meant for physical fitness, but for conquering the elements, energy, and so on. So, how to balance the energy in the body, how to control the five elements, how to balance the various aspect of the mind without mixing them all together, and how to be able to perceive the difference between the gunas, and to experience that there is something behind them, operating in the world of man - that is what asanas are for. The process is slow and painstaking, but a steady inquiry facilitates a growing awareness.” - Iyengar 

“But using it [yoga] for physical practice is no good, of no use - just a lot of sweating, pushing, and heavy breathing for nothing. The spiritual aspect, which is beyond the physical is the purpose of yoga. When the nervous system is purified, when your mind rests in the atman [the Self], then you can experience the true greatness of yoga.” - Jois 

[Howl]

This is totally annoying and so is all the rationalizing of political correctness run amok. I have practiced Iyengar yoga for 14 years under teachers certified in India under BKS Iyengar himself.  My favorite teacher, a 67 year old man from New York who calls himself a Hindjew, spends a month in Pune with Iyengar's son Prashant every year. Asana, which is only  one limb of the 8-fold path of yoga, which is core to Hindu teaching,  has only been practiced in its modern form for about 100 years.  Ancient asanas were basically seated postures to improve meditative practice.

BKS himself, who really helped pioneer (with his guruji Jois) the modern practice of hatha and asana and who brought it to the west from Pune after curing childhood illness under the guidance of Jois, made many trips to the west and two of his most senior teachers and students, Manuso Manus from San Francisco and Patricia Walden from Boston, are white and western.  BKS did not think yoga belonged only to India and he did his damndest in his 90 plus years to show everyone a way to access the eightfold path.....

 

Refreshing -- so clearly and beautifully stated.  I studied with an Iyengar-trained yogini (Kathy Curran) when I lived in SW Colorado.  I recall that Manuso made it out to Durango for a workshop.  Kathy made it to India several times to train with Mr. Iyengar and Geeta (oldest daughter) and Prashant and it was a very powerful experience for her. Kathy is still teaching in Durango, should any of you yogis make it out that way.  

One fascinating aspect of Iyengar yoga is that it is an active study of the human body, how yoga affects it and using those insights to understand and refine poses and alignment.  It is not in any way a static practice.  It is sometimes referred to as furniture yoga or prop yoga, because many household furnishings can be used to help adapt poses for those less flexible, injured or ill -- a very compassionate approach.  My favorite Mr. Iyengar story was him falling asleep in a headstand in his later years.  Sorry, I'm wandering off into reminiscence. 

But back to the point, Kathy was very good at imbuing her practice with the heritage of yoga in a contemporary way.  

 

[Lawsome]

Person who lives down the street for U of O (and who is a U of O graduate, with current students as roommates) who feels the need to comment. (I know I lurk mostly, but this is something I know a bit about)

There are still a ton of yoga classes offered on campus, and many of them are free for students. This specific one was the only one suspended for a semester for re-evaluation (By the Student Federation, not by the university administration). It seems like someone decided the reason was for cultural appropriation to make the story blow up quickly, but I doubt that was the actual reason. The disability resource centre does have limited space and resources and therefore does need to pick and choose what programming they offer.

I don't know how the idea got out that it was concern about cultural appropriation, but I think there was a much more rational set of choices at play than what is being reported.

[Jingerbread]

First of all, I think the only thing that can be "owned" is something physical.  Words, practices, religions, activities, skills, knowledge, etc. have been exchanged by humanity for the entire existence of the species.  Exchange of the abstract and learning are things that make us human.  We are literally hard wired in our brains to watch and learn new things when they are demonstrated to us by others.  You can't turn this off.  It's one of the deepest and most key functions of the human brain.  It's natural and normal to adopt beneficial habits, skills, words, etc. that you see used around you.  It's a key element in bonding and communication.

Secondly, the whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is not universal.  It's sort of a Western thing AND something that has been created very recently.  TRY to explain "cultural appropriation" in the PRC and attach a negative connotation to it.  IF you manage to get your point across (very difficult), you'll get laughed at and told that this is normal.  I did ask what they thought about Westerners adopting Chinese stuff.  The response: "GREAT!" (It indicates the significance of China; it is a sign of respect for Chinese ways; It makes us feel good because we also like Western things so it is like we are equal friends)

Some people are vegetarian for religious reasons.  That does not mean that EVERYONE who is vegetarian is appropriating their religious practices.  They don't "own" vegetarianism.  Similarly, SOME people in India (not all) practice yoga for religious reasons.  Others do not.  Some people in India practice yoga strictly for health reasons.   Neither party "owns" yoga.  Yoga (like vegetarianism) is a part of their religion, but not exclusive to it. By the way, India has many cultures.  Do you think these different cultures borrow from each other?  You BET they do!

Here's an interesting counter argument:  Many native-born Chinese EXTREMELY DISLIKE American Born Chinese.  The reason they give is that ABC's (as they call them) try to dominate the narrative of what it "means" to be Chinese, disregarding native born Chinese opinion.  I have seen native born Chinese tell off ABCs for telling ME off for being "too Chinese" in China.  I mean yelling.  I mean strangers chewing these people out because they were American born and tried to tell me what aspects of Chinese culture were "OK", and the China-born Chinese feel that American born people don't get to decide that.  Many native born Chinese (and Indians and many other countries) are extremely willing to share their cultures and become at best confused and at worst upset when people try to block others from doing it.  And if, for example, Indians born and raised in India are extremely pro sharing a certain aspect of their culture, is it fair for Western Born people of Indian decent to block that?  Or is that just another example of the West trying to control the narrative, telling non-Western countries what to think, and prioritizing THEIR values (and boundaries) over the boundaries of non-Western peoples?

This reminds me of an old friend I've lost contact with.  She's from India, and was extremely excited to share her culture with anyone who would listen, and yoga flourishing in the area at the time thrilled her.  These things made her feel welcome in this country.  She used to wrap me in saris, and loved teaching me new ways to wrap them.  When I told her I couldn't wear them though because Americans see it as wrong, she was hurt.  Did we want to keep her culture out of the melting pot? 

What Americans, mostly white people, call appropriation, a lot of people in other cultures see as an attempt at keeping their culture out.  Notice how we aren't seeing Hindus or Indian people leading the stop-yoga groups.  We're seeing white people being offended for another race who isn't offended, and Christians finding some way to show their anti-nonChristianness.

And I just realized how white people leading the anti-appropriation movement is really no different than supremacists trying to keep non-white stuff out.  Can't have Indian or Mexican or Chinese culture mixing in, and we'll give it the nice-sounding "let's not appropriate" as an excuse.

[Jingerbread]

About the underlined:

I'm just one person and I don't intend to speak on behalf of anyone other than myself here. . . but speaking from an American perspective, I do find it a bit disrespectful when non-Irish Americans use St. Patrick's Day as an excuse to get completely wasted.

St. Patrick's Day is an insult to non-Christians.  The snakes he drove out were the druids, something of a catch-all for all non-Christians.  I see making a joke of the day as a way to fight back against the people who celebrate it as a solemn day of remembrance and gratitude for the guy.  My long-time best-friend and I broke up over this.  She sees it as a wonderful religious holiday, and I see it as a longer-ago Columbus Day.  Columbus tried to annihilate Native Americans.  St. Patrick is credited with successfully ridding a country of people like me.  We wouldn't celebrate Hitler for trying to rid Europe of Jews, so why sincerely celebrate a man who is said to have successfully ridded a country of people who didn't subscribe to his brand of religion?

Maybe it would be better is St. Patrick's Day wasn't done either way, but it is, and I'll be damned if I'm going to silently sit there while people celebrate people like me being driven out of their home country.  The people I know the biggest into getting wasted are Irish Americans who see St. Patrick as a joke to begin with, and I know a lot of people who celebrate him sincerely with church services and how-dare-non-Christians-celebrate-today (while having no problem with Santa Claus and secular Christmas celebrations).  I just buy chocolate coins and load up on corned beef and cabbage and share memes that are my way of pushing back against the people thanking god for the work of St. Patrick.

Sort-of-kind-of off-topic-ish ... 

But EVERYone becomes Irish on St. Patrick's Day in the US. I am of  actual Irish ancestry (thanks to one set of grandparents), and I get a bit of a giggle out of how everyone (but EVERYone) is downing the corned beef and cabbage ... which isn't even Irish but Jewish ... because the Irish immigrants often lived in predominately Jewish areas and purchased from Jewish butchers and adopted some of their customs. Hence ... corned beef and cabbage on St. Patrick's Day.  Thanks to my Jewish grandfather, I feel absolutely zero guilt about appropriating corned beef (I have one in my freezer as I type just waiting for me to get my hands on it).  But seriously ... this is a great example of cultural sharing (the corned beef, I mean).

I don't care where it's from.  It's one of my favorite foods, and I go hog wild on it on St. Patrick's Day because that's the only time it's available affordably instead of $5-$7 per pound.

[nausicaa]

St. Patrick's Day is an insult to non-Christians.  The snakes he drove out were the druids, something of a catch-all for all non-Christians.  I see making a joke of the day as a way to fight back against the people who celebrate it as a solemn day of remembrance and gratitude for the guy.  My long-time best-friend and I broke up over this.  She sees it as a wonderful religious holiday, and I see it as a longer-ago Columbus Day.  Columbus tried to annihilate Native Americans.  St. Patrick is credited with successfully ridding a country of people like me.  We wouldn't celebrate Hitler for trying to rid Europe of Jews, so why sincerely celebrate a man who is said to have successfully ridded a country of people who didn't subscribe to his brand of religion?

Maybe it would be better is St. Patrick's Day wasn't done either way, but it is, and I'll be damned if I'm going to silently sit there while people celebrate people like me being driven out of their home country.  

There are a lot of holes in the theory that snakes represented Pagan priests. Like huge, gaping, no actual evidence to back up the theory, holes. Enough holes that I'd say it is a bit of an overreaction to compare celebrating St. Patrick's Day to celebrating Hitler.

It's very common for saints' hagiographies to grow and become embellished in the years after their deaths, which is what the snake story is now chalked up to. It didn't even appear until decades after Patrick's death (if there even one Patrick, some scholars think there were two). Also, plenty of Irish people practiced Paganism for many years after Patrick's arrival and conversions. The island didn't become predominantly Christian until centuries after Patrick. And snakes never existed in Ireland, either in actuality or mythology. So why would pagan priests have snake tattoos on their arms?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2012/03/saint-patrick-druids-snakes-and-popular-myths.html

https://aediculaantinoi.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/liberalia-hero-feast-of-cu-chulainn/

 

I'm not saying Patrick was some amazing hero; there really isn't enough information about him to say. But for the Irish of decades ago who did face persecution, St. Patrick's Day was a way to celebrate their heritage, history, and religion in the face of oppression. To co-opt it as a Pagan statement because of a story that's been cut from whole cloth, is well, a bit offensive, in my Irish-Catholic-American opinion. Particularly if you are shaming those of Irish heritage for celebrating it, whether that be in a secular or solemn way.

 

[VelociRapture]

St. Patrick's Day is an insult to non-Christians.  The snakes he drove out were the druids, something of a catch-all for all non-Christians.  I see making a joke of the day as a way to fight back against the people who celebrate it as a solemn day of remembrance and gratitude for the guy.  My long-time best-friend and I broke up over this.  She sees it as a wonderful religious holiday, and I see it as a longer-ago Columbus Day.  Columbus tried to annihilate Native Americans.  St. Patrick is credited with successfully ridding a country of people like me.  We wouldn't celebrate Hitler for trying to rid Europe of Jews, so why sincerely celebrate a man who is said to have successfully ridded a country of people who didn't subscribe to his brand of religion?

Maybe it would be better is St. Patrick's Day wasn't done either way, but it is, and I'll be damned if I'm going to silently sit there while people celebrate people like me being driven out of their home country.  The people I know the biggest into getting wasted are Irish Americans who see St. Patrick as a joke to begin with, and I know a lot of people who celebrate him sincerely with church services and how-dare-non-Christians-celebrate-today (while having no problem with Santa Claus and secular Christmas celebrations).  I just buy chocolate coins and load up on corned beef and cabbage and share memes that are my way of pushing back against the people thanking god for the work of St. Patrick.

I don't care where it's from.  It's one of my favorite foods, and I go hog wild on it on St. Patrick's Day because that's the only time it's available affordably instead of $5-$7 per pound.

I don't disagree with your point of view regarding St. Patrick at all. I've never been a big fan of Patrick or what he is said to stand for (if he was even an actual person - there is so little information known about him), even though I was raised Catholic.

My point is how I don't appreciate people in the states using the day as an excuse to stereotype Irish Americans or the Irish. If people want to use the day as a way to learn about Ireland or Irish culture or history - that's fine. But when I walk into a store and see the stupid "Irish Yoga" merchandise - that pisses me off. It's rude and disrespectful for someone to be making money off of stereotypes in that manner.

There are a lot of holes in the theory that snakes represented Pagan priests. Like huge, gaping, no actual evidence to back up the theory, holes. Enough holes that I'd say it is a bit of an overreaction to compare celebrating St. Patrick's Day to celebrating Hitler or to end a friendship over it (  ). 

It's very common for saints' hagiographies to grow and become embellished in the years after their deaths, which is what the snake story is now chalked up to. It didn't even appear until decades after Patrick's death (if there even one Patrick, some scholars think there were two). Also, plenty of Irish people practiced Paganism for many years after Patrick's arrival and conversions. The island didn't become predominantly Christian until centuries after Patrick. And snakes never existed in Ireland, either in actuality or mythology. So why would pagan priests have snake tattoos on their arms?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2012/03/saint-patrick-druids-snakes-and-popular-myths.html

https://aediculaantinoi.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/liberalia-hero-feast-of-cu-chulainn/

 

I'm not saying Patrick was some amazing hero; there really isn't enough information about him to say. But for the Irish of decades ago who did face persecution, St. Patrick's Day was a way to celebrate their heritage, history, and religion in the face of oppression. To co-opt it as a Pagan statement because of a story that's been cut from whole cloth, is well, a bit of cultural appropriation, in my Irish-Catholic-American opinion. Particularly if you are shaming those of Irish heritage for celebrating it, whether that be in a secular or solemn way.

 

To the underlined:

Its true that no evidence of snakes have been found in Ireland. The serpent is often used as a symbol of evil in Christianity though - I wouldn't be surprised if the St. Patrick serpent story was introduced by Irish Catholics later on, possibly as a metaphor for the way the Catholic Church absorbed many Pagan sites and celebrations.

As for serpents in Celtic culture and symbolism, I find it reasonable and entirely possible that reports of serpents and snakes were brought to the Irish by travelers and were then incorporated into Irish culture and myth. We know there were snakes in Britain and Scotland, which are a relatively short distance from Ireland - it makes sense to me that the Irish Celts could have learned of them in that manner.

[WhiteRun]

I honestly believed cultural appropriation began as something to point out where people were using parts of a culture that 1) create a negative/racist/stereotypical view or belief of the culture or the people within the culture itself and/or 2)use parts of a culture that are deeply rooted as hurtful events such as wars or events in history. 
Frankly I'd like to know who asked for this yoga session to be cancelled and whether or not anyone of Indian descent or people directly related to traditional yoga in India were consulted before this decision was made. Far too often people go over board before realising that a lot of people don't mind their culture being used as long as its not in a racially stereotypical way. Not long ago I saw an image of a young white girl in a kimono where someone verbally attacked the child for wearing Japanese clothing. An actual Japanese person commented and pointed out that it's completely fine to be worn as long as its not used in a racist way. 
While I can't say I've dealt with culture appropriation (pasty white girl), I've dealt with a lot of ableism which is incredibly frustrating. 

[nausicaa]

 

Its true that no evidence of snakes have been found in Ireland. The serpent is often used as a symbol of evil in Christianity though - I wouldn't be surprised if the St. Patrick serpent story was introduced by Irish Catholics later on, possibly as a metaphor for the way the Catholic Church absorbed many Pagan sites and celebrations.

As for serpents in Celtic culture and symbolism, I find it reasonable and entirely possible that reports of serpents and snakes were brought to the Irish by travelers and were then incorporated into Irish culture and myth. We know there were snakes in Britain and Scotland, which are a relatively short distance from Ireland - it makes sense to me that the Irish Celts could have learned of them in that manner.

Very possible that they heard about snakes from Brits and Scots. But I think the fact that snake imagery is most maligned in Abrahamic religions suggests that the snake myth was retroactively added to St. Patrick's legend by Christians (whether it be using snakes as representative of Pagans or the idea that Irish Druid priests had snakes tattooed on their arms). 

[nelliebelle1197]

Refreshing -- so clearly and beautifully stated.  I studied with an Iyengar-trained yogini (Kathy Curran) when I lived in SW Colorado.  I recall that Manuso made it out to Durango for a workshop.  Kathy made it to India several times to train with Mr. Iyengar and Geeta (oldest daughter) and Prashant and it was a very powerful experience for her. Kathy is still teaching in Durango, should any of you yogis make it out that way.  

One fascinating aspect of Iyengar yoga is that it is an active study of the human body, how yoga affects it and using those insights to understand and refine poses and alignment.  It is not in any way a static practice.  It is sometimes referred to as furniture yoga or prop yoga, because many household furnishings can be used to help adapt poses for those less flexible, injured or ill -- a very compassionate approach.  My favorite Mr. Iyengar story was him falling asleep in a headstand in his later years.  Sorry, I'm wandering off into reminiscence. 

But back to the point, Kathy was very good at imbuing her practice with the heritage of yoga in a contemporary way.  

 

I am pretty sure Kathy Curran is connected to my folks.I remember hearing about her. I do a three day workshop with Manuso every summer. His brother lives here and he visits.

[molecule]