Bates Family Part 5

[nastyhobbitses]

 

You make a good point.  The Bates may seem somewhat okay, but when the best thing you can say about someone's parenting is that it's not has bad as these other horrible people, that's not the greatest recommendation.

It's kinda like a point my Development professor made about certain countries: if the selling point of your government is "we're not as horrible as the last guy", you're not a very effective and probably not a very good government.

[HermioneSparrow]

Let's look at the 3 married Duggar couples - Josh & Anna - no jobs, no further education,  Jill and Derick - "Missionaries" but lack backing for a recognized missionary group, Derick is a college graduate and eligible for SBC backing but his wife isn't,  Jessa and Ben - no jobs, Ben has an associates degree

So that's one and half (Ben's AA) degrees amongst 6 adults and no paying jobs.

Let's look at the 4 married Bates couples - Zach and Whitney - Zach has at least one job, police academy graduate (I say at least one because there has been rumblings he was working more than one)  It's also possible that Whit has a CC degree. Erin and Chad - Two jobs, Erin has a Crown degree which is worthless but she did something not sure about Chad, Allysa and John - John works at his dad's HVAC company IF he's a tech he had to go to school, there are federal tests you have to take.  John and Allysa were also doing commercial cleaning prior to Allie Jane's arrival.  Michael and Brandon - Brandon works for HQ, has a Gothard ministry degree.  Michael is rumored to have attended local CC for EMT.  I suspect she didn't sit for boards though.  You would have thought they would have asked for prayers.

So that's 2 tech degrees, 2 Gothard degrees, and a possible AA degree and at least 5 paying jobs amongst 8 adults.

I did ask hubby if John could have apprenticed is way into a tech position and he is doubtful.  What's on the test and what you learn hands on is very different.  He said that's why the "rookies" always have to run calls with the vets because they may have passed the test but that doesn't mean they can do the work and vice versa.  

Michael said a few days ago on her instagram that she's finishing college... I'm not quite sure about her degree or what's her studies... Also, as far as I know Crown College isn't Gothard's, it's Christian (worthless though). I think Whit finished her CC degree but I'm not sure.

[Natalie22]

Let's look at the 3 married Duggar couples - Josh & Anna - no jobs, no further education,  Jill and Derick - "Missionaries" but lack backing for a recognized missionary group, Derick is a college graduate and eligible for SBC backing but his wife isn't,  Jessa and Ben - no jobs, Ben has an associates degree

So that's one and half (Ben's AA) degrees amongst 6 adults and no paying jobs.

Let's look at the 4 married Bates couples - Zach and Whitney - Zach has at least one job, police academy graduate (I say at least one because there has been rumblings he was working more than one)  It's also possible that Whit has a CC degree. Erin and Chad - Two jobs, Erin has a Crown degree which is worthless but she did something not sure about Chad, Allysa and John - John works at his dad's HVAC company IF he's a tech he had to go to school, there are federal tests you have to take.  John and Allysa were also doing commercial cleaning prior to Allie Jane's arrival.  Michael and Brandon - Brandon works for HQ, has a Gothard ministry degree.  Michael is rumored to have attended local CC for EMT.  I suspect she didn't sit for boards though.  You would have thought they would have asked for prayers.

So that's 2 tech degrees, 2 Gothard degrees, and a possible AA degree and at least 5 paying jobs amongst 8 adults.

I did ask hubby if John could have apprenticed is way into a tech position and he is doubtful.  What's on the test and what you learn hands on is very different.  He said that's why the "rookies" always have to run calls with the vets because they may have passed the test but that doesn't mean they can do the work and vice versa.  

If you're going to count Erin and Brandon's degrees, then you also have to count Jill's midwifery training.  

[tumblr]

Yes, the Bateses have just as screwed up beliefs as the Duggars, but at least their children aren't utterly stunted and unemployable. Though then again, you could make similar comparisons down the line: hey, the Duggars are horrible screwed up parents and more dysfunctional than the Maxwells, but at least they allow their children to have fun. Hey, the Maxwells are about as weird a fundie family cult as the Rodrigueses, but at least they live in an actual, clean, safe house and make money in ways that don't involve begging on the internet.

For me, it comes down to the fact that the Bates actually look truly happy in nearly every picture. I can't say that about most if any other fundie family. 

[unforgiving]

Okay, I've really got to ask what is actually wrong with being a tree surgeon? I see Gil being criticised here  for quitting his job to start his own tree surgery business all the time, and I really don't understand it. Tree surgery is actually a legitimate industry, you know. I mean, I don't know about all of you, but if I had a potentially dangerous 30' tree overhanging my house I'd be calling a tree surgeon to sort  that out, and I'd be happy to pay them for their work. It seems some people  here wouldn't choose to call "someone who just cuts down trees" in that instance, and would instead rather go at it themselves with a hack saw. Seriously?

Yes, yes, he had a passel  of kids to feed when he quit his job and started out on his own. Guess what, sometimes non-fundamentalists with kids also sum up the courage  to quit the day job they hate to start their own dream business. In my experience, those people are usually well aware of the risk they are taking and have some sort of backup plan in place before they do so.

I mean, can't we criticise him for his horrible beliefs or his other job as a molester-protecting Board member for IBLP, instead of criticising him for having the courage to do what so many people want to do but don't because they don't have the guts to? It does actually come across as more than a bit jealous and bitter.

[formergothardite]

I never got the impression that it was his dream to start a tree company, he just managed to grift the equipment so he started the job. Gil's main job is grifting with a side of protecting a guy like Bill Gothard. I think Gil''s back up plan has always been grift, grift, grift. I am not jealous of Gil at all.  IMO one of the reasons his kids are hard working is because they probably don't want to put their own children through the humiliation of constantly begging for things because the parents are trying to breed an army for God. The man teaches an IBLP course on how to have a million kids while not bothering with pesky things like a steady income. I'm not going to give him any credit for being a hard worker or having the courage to quit a job he didn't like so he could follow his dreams. 

Kelly and Gil are better educated than Michelle and Jim Bob, which, IMO makes it worse that Gil and Kelly purposely tried to limit their children and deny them the life that Gil and Kelly had. We see such a limited and carefully edited view of their life that I'm not just going to assume they are as truly happy as they look. A lot of those top ATI families looked truly happy and a lot ended up having horror stories hidden in the closet. Kelly used pretty damn awful methods of training her newborn babies, so I don't think she is as loving as she likes to appear to people. She also assigned her babies buddies while she was still pregnant. Kelly is smart, though, very smart and she has quickly learned what she needs to hide from the world which is why it is hard to find her old blog posts about how she stuck newborns with buddies and harshly trained her babies. 

[unforgiving]

Fair enough. I didn't realise he had grifted the equipment to start the business. I do believe that he would have been a grifter no matter what though, own business, office job or otherwise. I'm under the impression that tree surgery pays pretty well, so maybe he would have  had to have been an even more hardcore  grifter if he had stayed in his day job?

And I've also got the feeling that the reason his kids are generally pretty hard working  is because of their dislike for their parents  grifting ways. They often make comments about their Dad's cheapness on the show  as well, and underneath their jokes about it, I think that they are secretly fed up of it.  I don't think they will turn out to be grifters or particularly cheap themselves, and that's a good thing.

I still don't think it's necessary to talk down tree surgery though. We do need tree surgeons, and it is dangerous work that not everybody is willing to do.

[formergothardite]

Oh, I don't think there is anything wrong with running a tree cutting business, but this has always, at least to me, seemed like something Gil sort of just has around to make it look like he isn't completely lazy.  I think Gil is just plain lazy. Kelly doesn't appear to the be the hardest worker either, at least Michelle waited till the babies were older to hand them over to a buddy to raise. They are two peas in a pod who have no issue using their kids to grift their way through life. They exploit their children so they aren't expected to get jobs and they have such dubious morals that Bill Gothard trusted them enough to bring them into his inner circle, which is why I don't buy this "aren't we such a really happy family?!" look that they show the world. 

The best thing I can say about them is that at least they didn't stick all their kids in a pop-up camper or RV to live.They are not as bad as they could be. 

[unforgiving]

I think the main reason that Bill Gothard elevated the Bates within IBLP may well have something to do with  him realising they were  more likeable and better PR for his brand than the Duggars. He must have known about all the skeletons in the Duggar family closet and that it would all come out eventually. Ironic considering he is also a child molester, but I don't think abusers often see fault in the way they are behaving, only in the way others are behaving.

It will be interesting to see how the Bates family turns out in the future if their show gets a long enough run. The Duggars have had a lot longer to let fame go to their heads. I wonder what kind of affect it will have on the Bates if they were to get the same level of exposure. Their kids were a few years older than the Duggars when they got their own show, so maybe it will affect the younger Bates kids more than the older ones. I hope not. Those kids are cute and I hope none of them start behaving as obnoxiously as some of the older Duggar kids do when they reach that age.

[grandmadugger]

If you're going to count Erin and Brandon's degrees, then you also have to count Jill's midwifery training.  

I forgot that she actually finished.  But still she's not doing a damn thing with it.  

Michael said a few days ago on her instagram that she's finishing college... I'm not quite sure about her degree or what's her studies... Also, as far as I know Crown College isn't Gothard's, it's Christian (worthless though). I think Whit finished her CC degree but I'm not sure.

It's Gothard approved and not accredited.  I wouldn't toss it into the Christian category simply because there are a lot of really good colleges out there that are accredited that are Christian in origin. 

I didn't know for sure about those two gals.  I thought Kelly at one time said Michael was in EMT classes but that may not be what she finishes in and I had never heard for sure if Whit finished or if she was "convicted" to not go to a worldly college.

[nastyhobbitses]

I think the main reason that Bill Gothard elevated the Bates within IBLP may well have something to do with  him realising they were  more likeable and better PR for his brand than the Duggars. He must have known about all the skeletons in the Duggar family closet and that it would all come out eventually. Ironic considering he is also a child molester, but I don't think abusers often see fault in the way they are behaving, only in the way others are behaving.

It will be interesting to see how the Bates family turns out in the future if their show gets a long enough run. The Duggars have had a lot longer to let fame go to their heads. I wonder what kind of affect it will have on the Bates if they were to get the same level of exposure. Their kids were a few years older than the Duggars when they got their own show, so maybe it will affect the younger Bates kids more than the older ones. I hope not. Those kids are cute and I hope none of them start behaving as obnoxiously as some of the older Duggar kids do when they reach that age.

I'm sure that both Gothard and UpTV know at this point about any skeletons in their closet and they're likely working on cleaning/covering things up in advance of them going public. Though I'd hope that the skeletons they have aren't as horrible as the Duggars'.

[formergothardite]

I think the main reason that Bill Gothard elevated the Bates within IBLP may well have something to do with  him realising they were  more likeable and better PR for his brand than the Duggars. He must have known about all the skeletons in the Duggar family closet and that it would all come out eventually. Ironic considering he is also a child molester, but I don't think abusers often see fault in the way they are behaving, only in the way others are behaving.

It will be interesting to see how the Bates family turns out in the future if their show gets a long enough run. The Duggars have had a lot longer to let fame go to their heads. I wonder what kind of affect it will have on the Bates if they were to get the same level of exposure. Their kids were a few years older than the Duggars when they got their own show, so maybe it will affect the younger Bates kids more than the older ones. I hope not. Those kids are cute and I hope none of them start behaving as obnoxiously as some of the older Duggar kids do when they reach that age.

I think it probably has to do more with the fact that Gil is more easily controlled than Jim Bob. Jim Bob likes power while Gil seems to like to grift his way through life and probably wouldn't seek to push Gothard out of power. I could see Jim Bob getting power hungry and wanting to take over.  Gothard likes unquestioning obedience and people who will turn a blind eye to abuse, Gil and Kelly seem to be a perfect fit. 

I do think though, that Gothard has no issue using the Bates likeability to try and attract more followers. Of course, now with Gil being involved with a lawsuit about covering up abuse in IBLP, this might be harder. I know UP was made aware of Gil and Kelly's connection to Gothard, his awful teachings, and cover up of abuse, so they along with Gil and Kelly are probably working hard to make everyone forget that and instead look at the cute babies. 

[nausicaa]

Yep. They're all good-looking but not carbon copies, mostly because their genes are more varied (brown and blue eyes, brown and blonde hair). How stunning is their Josie already? I personally think Erin's brand of cutesy/hair/makeup is a little over the top for me, but better that than crazy bronzer-loving Duggars.

(It should go without saying that I don't think anyone's worth is determined by their relative attractiveness. Just an observation.)

The genetic diversity in the Bates family is really interesting to me. I mean, Carlin and Erin don't even look like they could be cousins. It is interesting how each of the girls are very attractive, but all in such different ways. 

[Jeebusismycopilot]

 

I also am rocking the pale look! I burn and by burn I mean I will blister if I spend too much time in the sun, the only thing I get out of it is more freckles and maybe looking slightly less ghostly than before. It is a problem and I am jealous of those people with their tans, but I will sulk under my big hat. 

I figure my "tan" will come when I eventually turn into 1 giant freckle.  I do a blue to red to pasty white thing with ease.  I do have to say I love my freckles though. I went to a spa once where they told me they had a product to reduce the sight of my freckles and I couldn't believe it! I have a very speckled tan! I have no desire to lose what little pigment I have! Plus they usually mean I still get carded at the Beer Store - so yay! 

[Georgiana]

Just want to throw out there.....

Erin has a professionally produced album that is on iTunes and currently charted as #105 in the Christian and Gospel genre.  Ok, she's no Taylor Swift or Amy Grant, but that's pretty impressive!  She may have a pretend degree, but her music career is anything but!  Especially for an instrumentalist, that's really nothing to sneeze at.  Then she teaches piano on the side.  

There's a lot of focus today on "degrees".  Everyone goes into massive debt to get a piece of paper...and then what?  My parents always told me growing up that in 99% of cases, your degree is only important once: your first post college job.  After that, no one looks at your degree.  They look at your work history, experience, and accomplishments.  Truth is, it doesn't matter if Erin's degree is fake anymore because she has enough experience and accomplishments as a pianist to bill herself as a teacher and performer on those alone.  Sure she wont be selling out Madison Square garden, but she could EASILY book a small Church circuit if they ever needed the extra money.  She's more than qualified to teach, and I'd be willing to bet she turns down potential students.

It's not about the degree you get, it's what you do with it.  I'll count Jill and Brandon's whatever, when they have their equivalent of a charted album on iTunes.  

 

 

[Catey]

I agree that they do seem more sincere in their emotions being actually genuine and less a reflection of God or just plain empty, like really blank stares like the Duggars, they are still deep in the pitcher.

 

 

[nastyhobbitses]

The genetic diversity in the Bates family is really interesting to me. I mean, Carlin and Erin don't even look like they could be cousins. It is interesting how each of the girls are very attractive, but all in such different ways. 

I can kinda see common threads in their features (mouth shape, eyebrows), but they do look very different from one another. I think they sorta naturally divided into Team Gil (Zach, Michael, Addee, Carlin, Ellie) and Team Kelly (Erin, Alyssa, Judson, Katie), and they got the best features from both. I think it happened with the Duggars too, but you can tell that way more kids are Team Jim Bob than Team Michelle (only three I can really see are Jill, Josh, and Josie).

[Jeebusismycopilot]

Just want to throw out there.....

Erin has a professionally produced album that is on iTunes and currently charted as #105 in the Christian and Gospel genre.  Ok, she's no Taylor Swift or Amy Grant, but that's pretty impressive!  She may have a pretend degree, but her music career is anything but!  Especially for an instrumentalist, that's really nothing to sneeze at.  Then she teaches piano on the side.  

There's a lot of focus today on "degrees".  Everyone goes into massive debt to get a piece of paper...and then what?  My parents always told me growing up that in 99% of cases, your degree is only important once: your first post college job.  After that, no one looks at your degree.  They look at your work history, experience, and accomplishments.  Truth is, it doesn't matter if Erin's degree is fake anymore because she has enough experience and accomplishments as a pianist to bill herself as a teacher and performer on those alone.  Sure she wont be selling out Madison Square garden, but she could EASILY book a small Church circuit if they ever needed the extra money.  She's more than qualified to teach, and I'd be willing to bet she turns down potential students.

It's not about the degree you get, it's what you do with it.  I'll count Jill and Brandon's whatever, when they have their equivalent of a charted album on iTunes.  

 

 

Exactly. It is a fantastic accomplishment degree or not.  A university education doesn't grant you any special talents that you didn't already have. Her talent came from her hard work and dedication.  There are so many multimillion dollar recording artists who haven't finished high school let alone gone on to post-secondary education.  

My favourite thing my Dad used to say when people would go on about the fancy degrees they had: "That, and $1.25 will buy you a cup of coffee" Certainly put things into perspective. 

 

Don't get me wrong, education is important and depending on what you choose to pursue, the credibility of the school becomes an issue.  I really wouldn't want a doctor, lawyer etc coming from a diploma mill or a fake school.  Thankfully, there are usually measures in place to make sure only those who are truly qualified will receive certification. But a BA in 17th century French Literature doesn't mean someone is more qualified to work in an office than someone who may not have a degree but does have drive, determination and life experience. 

[bashfulpixie]

I can kinda see common threads in their features (mouth shape, eyebrows), but they do look very different from one another. I think they sorta naturally divided into Team Gil (Zach, Michael, Addee, Carlin, Ellie) and Team Kelly (Erin, Alyssa, Judson, Katie), and they got the best features from both. I think it happened with the Duggars too, but you can tell that way more kids are Team Jim Bob than Team Michelle (only three I can really see are Jill, Josh, and Josie).

That's one thing I find so interesting about these mega families. It really shows how funny genetics are with regards to a persons appearance.  I recently binge watched BUB and it amazes me how different their appearances are.

I'm also amazed by how much better they present themselves and their lifestyle. They're just so likable... until you remember their political and religious stances on things.

[SassyPants]

If you're going to count Erin and Brandon's degrees, then you also have to count Jill's midwifery training.  

Brandon and Erin work, at paying jobs with the skills they obtained...Jill does nothing.

Just want to throw out there.....

Erin has a professionally produced album that is on iTunes and currently charted as #105 in the Christian and Gospel genre.  Ok, she's no Taylor Swift or Amy Grant, but that's pretty impressive!  She may have a pretend degree, but her music career is anything but!  Especially for an instrumentalist, that's really nothing to sneeze at.  Then she teaches piano on the side.  

There's a lot of focus today on "degrees".  Everyone goes into massive debt to get a piece of paper...and then what?  My parents always told me growing up that in 99% of cases, your degree is only important once: your first post college job.  After that, no one looks at your degree.  They look at your work history, experience, and accomplishments.  Truth is, it doesn't matter if Erin's degree is fake anymore because she has enough experience and accomplishments as a pianist to bill herself as a teacher and performer on those alone.  Sure she wont be selling out Madison Square garden, but she could EASILY book a small Church circuit if they ever needed the extra money.  She's more than qualified to teach, and I'd be willing to bet she turns down potential students.

It's not about the degree you get, it's what you do with it.  I'll count Jill and Brandon's whatever, when they have their equivalent of a charted album on iTunes.  

 

 

AMEN!

[grandmadugger]

Just want to throw out there.....

Erin has a professionally produced album that is on iTunes and currently charted as #105 in the Christian and Gospel genre.  Ok, she's no Taylor Swift or Amy Grant, but that's pretty impressive!  She may have a pretend degree, but her music career is anything but!  Especially for an instrumentalist, that's really nothing to sneeze at.  Then she teaches piano on the side.  

There's a lot of focus today on "degrees".  Everyone goes into massive debt to get a piece of paper...and then what?  My parents always told me growing up that in 99% of cases, your degree is only important once: your first post college job.  After that, no one looks at your degree.  They look at your work history, experience, and accomplishments.  Truth is, it doesn't matter if Erin's degree is fake anymore because she has enough experience and accomplishments as a pianist to bill herself as a teacher and performer on those alone.  Sure she wont be selling out Madison Square garden, but she could EASILY book a small Church circuit if they ever needed the extra money.  She's more than qualified to teach, and I'd be willing to bet she turns down potential students.

It's not about the degree you get, it's what you do with it.  I'll count Jill and Brandon's whatever, when they have their equivalent of a charted album on iTunes.  

 

 

Oh I agree but was just pointing out it was Gothard approved, more to say "there is a place for the Duggars to go" then to throw down on Erin.  Brandon is working with his degree, it may be evil HQ but he's doing something.  Jill just poses with her piece of paper on IG.

[IrishCarrie]

I've only recently discovered the Bates family (their show isn't on Irish television) and most of what I know about them I learned on here.

But I've started following Erin and Alyssa on Instagram and I must say this, they're FAR more likeable than the Duggars! The Bates girls just seem warmer and more loving to their children. They're not nearly as preachy, they don't seem to feel the need to drag everything back to Jesus and they don't use the annoying Christian-speak where nouns become verbs!!  (I've 'purposed' to stop being annoyed by that any day now...)

I hear what you're all saying about the IBLP connection, I get it. But if I had to spend a rainy week beside the seaside with one of those families, it be the Bates, every time. 

[formergothardite]

Oh I agree but was just pointing out it was Gothard approved, more to say "there is a place for the Duggars to go" then to throw down on Erin.  Brandon is working with his degree, it may be evil HQ but he's doing something.  Jill just poses with her piece of paper on IG.

A Duggar child is going to Crown College, so IMO the other Duggar children might have just not been interested in going to get a college degree that they knew they would probably never use. They have a very, very limited amount of approved things to study and if I was in that situation and I didn't have an approved interest I would probably end up looking a lot like a Duggar child. Erin lucked out that she has a natural talent and interest in something that is encouraged in ATI but can also make her money. 

And I don't consider "working" at HQ any more useful than what Jill does. I got to give the Duggars credit that their adult children haven't exactly been following the ATI approved path, the Bates, on the other hand, have all the kids right in line with what Bill approves, they just know how to put a shiny, happy face on the evil that lurks in the background of their beliefs so that people think they are nicer and better. 

 

[Pretzel]

The Duggars are all emotionally stunted because the parents are too. It all comes down to the parents IMHO. Don't get me wrong. I know how vile either family's believes are when it comes to equality, freedom of speech and choice, LGBTQI, etc. Yet, if I was forced to spend time with one of them on the proverbial deserted island, I'd spend time with the Bateses for sure. There's no way anyone could get me to spend time with Duggar childults and emotional waste land like Boob and Meech. 

 

I'm tempted to buy Erin's album on iTunes because I like classical Christmas music, but I don't want to support them and their fundy Christian agenda, either. I have no doubt, though, that Erin is an excellent teacher and wish I'd had a piano teacher like her nearby when I was young and still able to learn and play. 

 

Has anyone noticed Erin's post about Chad doing most of their laundry? Could anyone send a Chad to me, please? I have lots and lots of laundry waiting for him.

[19 cats and counting]

Oh I agree but was just pointing out it was Gothard approved, more to say "there is a place for the Duggars to go" then to throw down on Erin.  Brandon is working with his degree, it may be evil HQ but he's doing something.  Jill just poses with her piece of paper on IG.

Even though working at HQ is a questionable job, it is a job.  If I were a newlywed expected to be a SAHW/M I would rather be married to a Brandon than a Ben.