Josiah Duggar Part 4

[isarhenne]

Of course it's okay to ask! I'm 25. I just finished grad school about a year ago, so I've only really been in the work force since then. I live in Berlin, which is probably a big part of the reason you and I have had such different experiences. My in-laws are in Hamburg, which I'm assuming is much closer to Berlin than to where you're living, experience-wise. Otherwise, your background doesn't sound all that different from mine (most people are university educated, middle-class-ish). I am originally from a small-ish town in south-western Germany, and things are a little different there. But still, everyone I know back there definitely believes in women's rights/equality, and everyone is open and vocal about it. People there might not label themselves 'feminists' quite as often as here, but they basically all still believe in the tenets. I'm kind of dumbfounded by your experiences. I don't know that I would want to live surrounded by people who think I don't have the same rights as a man. That shit is scary. Hugs to you!

Wow, yes, Berlin is definitely a different universe compared to where I live. You probably wouldn't believe me if I tell you that here there are all male fraternities where women are not allowed to speak or to take food if there's a mixed party. Of course, there is no such thing as an all female fraternity. I have female friends who's husbands and boyfriends are in those fraternities and they all talk about it as if there is nothing to worry about. Or at home where I grew up women where not allowed to speak at the diner table, just serve and then eat in silence as the men spoke about work and different things. When I tried to speak I was ignored, not even looked at, and possible run over by my father with words.

This all happens today , in Germany, in families with a Christian background (just to clear up any confusion). The women don't even know that there could be something "wrong" with that.

[HarleyQuinn]

Doesn't really have to do with Josiah anymore, but I wonder whether Marjorie was fame hungry and when J no longer had a show she hit the road, or if her parents shut it down after the whole Josh thing (or the whole Josh things!) came out? I don't really want to believe that a girl that young would be SO fame hungry that she'd sign up for marrying someone, and be that shallow to ditch it all once he wasn't super famous anymore.

I always felt like Marjorie was fame hungry just because of the way she announced their courtship. She was ready for her ~fame~ Plus, I had to laugh after they broke up and she showed up at Michael Bates' wedding. Gotta find someone with a show.

I kid, but honestly, I do think she was fame hungry so she agreed to it. Jim Bob probably orchestrated it. Then when shit hit the fan with Josh she probably decided she didn't want to touch that family with a 10 foot poll and she got a little taste of the same she wanted.

[Senna]

maybe i explained it poorly. they didn't say you have to be a serial dater. they just said dating is okay and healthy and can be a good thing because you learn new things with each partner. it was different than many of my other churches that really wanted you to marry the first dude you dated.

This is the most horrifying idea.  I mean really.... think back to the first person you dated.  Now picture yourself married to that person.

I am sure it has worked for a select few, but omg.

[quiversR4hunting]

This is the most horrifying idea.  I mean really.... think back to the first person you dated.  Now picture yourself married to that person.

I am sure it has worked for a select few, but omg.

I actually know many people that are married to their first boyfriend/girlfriend. I think it depends on how long  the relationship was with your first boyfriend/girlfriend. I have dated several men prior to getting married to my husband. But only really had 2 boyfriends (my HS BF and my husband). The others were just dates or flings. I could picture myself married to my HS BF, he is a great man. I can't picture myself married to any of the other men that I dated.

 

[Fundie Bunny]

My cousin married his first girlfriend. They started dating when they were about 12 or 13. They took their time, married at 26, and didn't bring their kid into the mix until they were 31. The only thing that makes their story different to those of most fundies, is that they have common sense. If their thing has worked, is pure chance, and not because there wasn't an alternative

[Timetostoplurking]

 I have been married for almost 25 years.  I did date quite a bit in college and had, what I would call, 3 boyfriends before meeting my hubs.  I could actually see myself married to any one of them. (There was a reason I dated them after all.  Lol). But those ex's would have only been "good enough".  My current hubs, on the other hand, is "the one"!!!!   It scares me to think that I could have "settled" for someone else and missed out on him.  

So sad for these young fundies to end up with someone who is just "good enough".  

[Cleopatra7]

I actually know many people that are married to their first boyfriend/girlfriend. I think it depends on how long  the relationship was with your first boyfriend/girlfriend. I have dated several men prior to getting married to my husband. But only really had 2 boyfriends (my HS BF and my husband). The others were just dates or flings. I could picture myself married to my HS BF, he is a great man. I can't picture myself married to any of the other men that I dated.

 

Even people who marry a high school sweetheart usually have exposure to other people and have knowledge of what's out there and what to avoid. The Duggars and their ilk pretty much marry the first person who sort of looks interesting. That's the impression I got with Josh and Anna's "testimony" pre-Joshgate, at least. Since ATIers aren't socialized to be around other people or even to be aware of their own emotions, I would imagine that they don't have the maturity to make the best decisions about marriage. Part of the problem with Josiah and the other Duggars is that they don't have too many opportunities to meet people of the opposite sex. So far, all of the Duggar spouses/fianceés have been leghumpers to some extent, including the Jacksons. Now that they don't have a show and are disgraced, I don't think Josiah will have the same ability to attract a potential wife that he did eight or so months ago. However, I'm relieved the courtship didn't work out, since I think both Josiah and Marjorie are way too young to be married to anyone.

[August]

This is the most horrifying idea.  I mean really.... think back to the first person you dated.  Now picture yourself married to that person.

I am sure it has worked for a select few, but omg.

I'm married to my second, been together about 20-25 years (too much personal info!). The first was a couple of drunken drug addled weeks so I don't think he really counts. We broke up for a bit a couple of years in. It's not like a normal person is blind and isolated, so yes you can compare without dating (and if sex works, it works)

[ClaraOswin]

You don't have to date a bunch of different people to learn and grow as a person, to discover what you like and dislike, or to be a good partner. Yes, for some people it can be helpful, and that's awesome, but I think it's just as destructive to tell young people, 'You have to date a bunch of different people before you'll be good enough/smart enough/experienced enough to get married' as it is to promote insane courtship/purity restrictions.

This is the most horrifying idea.  I mean really.... think back to the first person you dated.  Now picture yourself married to that person.

I am sure it has worked for a select few, but omg.

I married the only person I ever dated. I had plenty of crushes over the years but no one ever liked me back until my husband. We've been married almost 10 years now and we're doing just fine, thanks.

[Karma]

I dated one guy in high school for a month, nothing more than kissing.  I was 18 and working when I met my husband, who was 24. We dated for 7 years before we were married. That was 23 years ago and we are doing just fine too.  I couldn't imagine marrying someone I hadn't been allowed to be alone with though.

On a side note, we've told our 19 year old DD that we would be horrified if she bought home a guy that much older...  It didn't seem like a big deal to us at the time though.

 

[ClaraOswin]

The never being alone together thing is the worst. I don't know how anyone can build a real relationship like that. Such messed up logic.

[JesSky03]

You don't have to date a bunch of different people to learn and grow as a person, to discover what you like and dislike, or to be a good partner. Yes, for some people it can be helpful, and that's awesome, but I think it's just as destructive to tell young people, 'You have to date a bunch of different people before you'll be good enough/smart enough/experienced enough to get married' as it is to promote insane courtship/purity restrictions.

I actually know many people that are married to their first boyfriend/girlfriend. I think it depends on how long  the relationship was with your first boyfriend/girlfriend. I have dated several men prior to getting married to my husband. But only really had 2 boyfriends (my HS BF and my husband). The others were just dates or flings. I could picture myself married to my HS BF, he is a great man. I can't picture myself married to any of the other men that I dated.

 

I only had one "long term relationship" as a 14/15 year old before meeting my now husband at age 16. The first guy was great- he was one of my best friends and the only reason we broke up was I moved to a different school district and eventually we just grew apart. If we had stayed together and ended up married I don't think it would be a terrible relationship.  But I wasn't in love with him. I knew that all along- that he was just going to be a high school boyfriend and nothing more. I didn't think I could fall in love at 16 but I sure did. I was head over heals for my husband just two weeks after we started dating. High school felt trivial to us- I would kiss him in the hallway before class (just a peck nothing over the top- not a huge fan of PDA) and if a teacher said something it would feel like she was telling me I couldn't kiss my husband. I made him promise though not to propose to until after high school- he waited two months after graduation. 

[OnceUponATime]

One of my churches when i was a teenager was very much pro supervised courtship (I was sooo blessed to have been a teen when 'I kissed Dating Goodbye' was published). The biggest argument for courtship was 'don't date like teens in the USA where they have a different boy/girlfriend every week'. The church very actively encouraged all teenagers to develop friendships with the opposite sex (as long as they were christians!). It was frowned upon to want to court someone you weren't friends with and didn't know well. Most people double dated so they were 'never alone' but it didn't exactly stop anything. Nicely illustrated by 2 girls getting pregnant in one year, which was then very quickly and quietly swept under the carpet.

I'm not sure there is anything inherently wrong with not serial dating before getting married. I do think that it becomes a bigger issue when you grow up not being allowed to develop friendships with anyone outside of one's cult/sex/SOTDRT.

 

[kunoichi66]

One of my churches when i was a teenager was very much pro supervised courtship (I was sooo blessed to have been a teen when 'I kissed Dating Goodbye' was published). The biggest argument for courtship was 'don't date like teens in the USA where they have a different boy/girlfriend every week'. The church very actively encouraged all teenagers to develop friendships with the opposite sex (as long as they were christians!). It was frowned upon to want to court someone you weren't friends with and didn't know well. Most people double dated so they were 'never alone' but it didn't exactly stop anything. Nicely illustrated by 2 girls getting pregnant in one year, which was then very quickly and quietly swept under the carpet.

I'm not sure there is anything inherently wrong with not serial dating before getting married. I do think that it becomes a bigger issue when you grow up not being allowed to develop friendships with anyone outside of one's cult/sex/SOTDRT.

 

Are you being sarcastic here, or do you mean that?

 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I didn't even meet my husband until I was 26. I didn't date all that much, but I guess I did learn things about myself and relationships from those experiences. Count me as a "glad I didn't marry the first guy". I do know people who did marry the first guy and are past their 50th anniversary. (Including one who got married at 17 and had her first child at 18. Not a fundie. 2 sons and very politically liberal.)

[Playagirl]

Married my first boyfriend. Started dating him at 15. Dated for 5 years, lived together for 1 and just celebrated our 29th anniversary.  Never had a moment's regret but we're probably the exception to the norm. Most definitely NOT fundie.

[OnceUponATime]

Are you being sarcastic here, or do you mean that?

 

definitely sarcastic. I received it as a birthday present from my parents 

[JillyO]

Wow, yes, Berlin is definitely a different universe compared to where I live. You probably wouldn't believe me if I tell you that here there are all male fraternities where women are not allowed to speak or to take food if there's a mixed party. Of course, there is no such thing as an all female fraternity. I have female friends who's husbands and boyfriends are in those fraternities and they all talk about it as if there is nothing to worry about. Or at home where I grew up women where not allowed to speak at the diner table, just serve and then eat in silence as the men spoke about work and different things. When I tried to speak I was ignored, not even looked at, and possible run over by my father with words.

This all happens today , in Germany, in families with a Christian background (just to clear up any confusion). The women don't even know that there could be something "wrong" with that.

That is horrifying.

[kunoichi66]

definitely sarcastic. I received it as a birthday present from my parents 

Oh wow, that's....something else.

[AmazonGrace]

This is the most horrifying idea.  I mean really.... think back to the first person you dated.  Now picture yourself married to that person.

I am sure it has worked for a select few, but omg.

My husband is married to his first girlfriend but I dated some unlikely prospects before him. In hindsight, one was, well, stupid, one was emotionally damaged, one turned out to be a control freak, one was quite nice but I think he wasn't that into me,  and one died very young,  I never found out for sure what happened to him but it was very sudden and he was seemingly healthy so I wondered if it was a suicide. 

 It felt like I gave pieces of my heart away to the emotionally damaged one and the control freak when it was just after the breakup but I think they grew back or scarred so nicely that you can barely tell anymore now.

Anyway, some of that taught me things that I don't want in a relationship. 

EDIT: oh and there was somebody else too who i gave pieces of my heart away to and I didn't even remember him...

 

 

The never being alone together thing is the worst. I don't know how anyone can build a real relationship like that. Such messed up logic.

Well better start how you mean to go on... after a few years you'll be living in a RV with 4 toddlers.

[Senna]

So awesome to hear about everyone's experiences!  It makes me feel a *little* more hopeful for all the fundie kids....I am actually surprised there are so many 1st or 2nd relationship marriages, I don't think I know anyone personally that has had that experience.

Too bad the J kids don't have normal life experience and socialization to help.

Thanks to everyone for sharing.

[Playagirl]

So awesome to hear about everyone's experiences!  It makes me feel a *little* more hopeful for all the fundie kids....I am actually surprised there are so many 1st or 2nd relationship marriages, I don't think I know anyone personally that has had that experience.

Too bad the J kids don't have normal life experience and socialization to help.

Thanks to everyone for sharing.

Yeah, I think that's the main difference b/w the J kids and non-fundies. I may have married my first boyfriend but I did do a bunch of social things with a close circle of friends in high school and a good many of those friends were *gasp* boys. And none of it was chaperoned.  And surprisingly, none of those social things involved uncontrollably tearing each others' clothes off and engaging in the evil sex that is supposed to happen when unsupervised teens of the opposite sex get together. All joking aside, though, being allowed the freedom to hang out with guys helped me find out what I wanted and didn't want in a permanent relationship, something the J-kids don't get the chance to do.

[mebeforee]

I think Josiah is pretty lucky, really, to have been able to have this relationship with a girl without it resulting in his future wife. He's always seemed like one of the most outgoing and personable of the kids, and also one of the smartest and most creative ones. He put himself out there and got into a relationship with a girl who was also outgoing and gregarious (I honestly never got the impression from her that she was maliciously fame-seeking so much as someone who just enjoys the attention or at least gets totally absorbed in whatever their current passion is, and in her case, it was Josiah). It's weird though, the other day I had a dream that I was was trying to help out the Duggar family and was living in their house, and while a lot of the dream was just me interacting with the sisters who are having babies, when I woke up I found myself thinking about Josiah as a kid on the show. I kept thinking about a bit where he was talking about how monkeys were his favorite animals because when he was little he thought he could ride on their backs through the trees. It was such an innocent little moment with him, and I realize that I kind of see Josiah as the ideal of a 'wholesome' upbringing. He was such an engaging and unpretentious kid for this family, it's like if he were stuck in a bland marriage that wasn't rewarding to him emotionally (though that's bad for anyone), it would be an extra horrible outcome for him. Since I've always cheered him on, it's kind of like, I have more of a vested interest in his potential happiness than, say, Jessa's. (I know that's terrible, but it's the truth.) I'm happy the courtship was broken off because I think getting married at such a young age would very likely be a bad move for him (it's not for everyone, but you need time - ALONE time - with another person to determine if they would be good for you in the long-term. He really can't get that through such a restrictive courtship model). I want him to achieve all his most creative dreams without having to worry about a wife and kids who may only exist because of family pressure and not because of genuine love.

[twinmama]

 

I married the only person I ever dated. I had plenty of crushes over the years but no one ever liked me back until my husband. We've been married almost 10 years now and we're doing just fine, thanks.

Yup, dated one guy before I met my husband. We dated for like 4 weeks, it was super casual, then we broke up and a year later I met my husband. I was 26 then! I'm 36 now, we're good.

Being out in the world, experiencing a big variety of people, knowing yourself, hearing about your friends' relationships all help you figure out what you want from a partner without having to date a ton of people. All things the Duggars are denied in addition to dating!

Oh and Clara, same here about tons of crushes but no one showing interest til the husband (or in my case the 4 week boyfriend). For me, it was totally one of those "once you stop looking, you'll find someone" things. I was like "fuck this, I'm going to grad school and I'll be a career woman" and then I met him in grad school.

[WhoompThereItIs]

Yup, dated one guy before I met my husband. We dated for like 4 weeks, it was super casual, then we broke up and a year later I met my husband. I was 26 then! I'm 36 now, we're good.

Being out in the world, experiencing a big variety of people, knowing yourself, hearing about your friends' relationships all help you figure out what you want from a partner without having to date a ton of people. All things the Duggars are denied in addition to dating!

Oh and Clara, same here about tons of crushes but no one showing interest til the husband (or in my case the 4 week boyfriend). For me, it was totally one of those "once you stop looking, you'll find someone" things. I was like "fuck this, I'm going to grad school and I'll be a career woman" and then I met him in grad school.

Completely agree. My boyfriend and I met in grad school too (we were both 27) and we've been together for 4 years now. Before him, I'd only ever dated one other guy, for ~1 month. In undergrad, I always thought it was amusing that my friends came to me for relationship advice, considering that I didn't have much personal experience. I guess hearing about their experiences really helped me appreciate my own self worth outside of a relationship, figure out what I wanted in a relationship, and what I wasn't willing to put up with.