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Gypsy Wedding


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Mami Bear, I find your insights very interesting, thank you for sharing them! I know almost nothing about traveller (or gypsy... I'm not even sure which word is preferred, and the tv show seems to switch back and forth) culture. But it is very interesting to learn.

As a total aside, this discussion got me interested in watching the series, so I watched some earlier on youtube, where it's clips from the original british version. Then I watched some on Hulu later this evening because for some reason youtube is being super slow this evening. I was very amused to note that what's on Hulu is the version shown in America on TLC, and they re-recorded all the narration with an American narrator and put subtitles at some of the points where the various British people being interviewed are speaking! WTH? Since when can Americans not understand English when it's spoken with a slight accent? :?

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MamiBear, when you said that marriage to outsiders is not condoned, does that include marriage to other types of Gypsies as well, or only marriage to mainstream people (those who haven't grown up in the Gypsy community)?

I know that a huge pressure is put on the girls to be virgins when married (or in general), but what about the boys/men? Do they have the same expectations placed upon them?

How did your daughter feel about her first year at university? Do other members of your community look down on your family because she chose to go the route of formal education?

I'm glad your husband has been able to accept outside medical help for his schizophrenia. I hope he's doing well and staying on the healthy side of the disease, if that makes sense. Do any of your children show signs of the disease?

On an unrelated note, but a comment on the ST:TNG. My cousin was in one of the first episodes. He even had a speaking part. I tried to look him up on IMDB, but I'm not sure if he was listed on there, even though there is an actor listed with his name. There aren't any more details to the person's bio for me to confirm that it is indeed my cousin, except for the fact that I know he was in that episode.

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I was very amused to note that what's on Hulu is the version shown in America on TLC, and they re-recorded all the narration with an American narrator and put subtitles at some of the points where the various British people being interviewed are speaking! WTH? Since when can Americans not understand English when it's spoken with a slight accent? :?

Ugh, that's so stupid. Of course, some brainstorm wanted to dub over the Beatles' speaking voices when they were going to release A Hard Day's Night in the US. The Beatles put their feet down and said, "If we can understand cowboys talking Texan in American movies, they can understand us talking Liverpool."

Anyway, this is a fascinating discussion. I find myself very uncomfortable both with the discouraging attitude toward formal education and the place of woman in Romany society, but I'm pretty appalled at the discrimination people of that background face, especially in Europe. I remember hearing things from neighbors and friends in England about the Irish Travelers that shocked the hell out of me.

And ChickeyMonkey, is that Geordi LaForge in your icon? I've been squinting at it all day trying to figure it out.

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Hello again everyone.

I’m at work now (yes, I do work!) so will have to be quick … well as quick as I ever am!

Thank you for all the welcomes! You are a very friendly bunch of guys.

Lizzie B I will definitely have to look out for that book you mention, Stone Cradle, in fact we live quite close to Cambridgeshire now, although we’re both from Northumberland (near Scotland) originally.

Chickey Monkey, certainly in my experience, it is frowned on to even marry anyone from another Gypsy community. I know this firsthand, because in truth I am actually ¾ Rromani, the other ¼ of me is Irish Gypsy (Pavee) as my paternal grandmother was Pavee. I think this is in part why my parents decided to separate themselves from the rest of the community and bring us children up in a house (we lived in a remote tied farm cottage until I was 9 which was idyllic) and not on a site with other Rromani families. They met with a great deal of opposition to their marriage from other family members. As Nuri mentioned earlier about her friend whose Roma mother tried to hide her culture, so did my parents. I grew up not knowing any Rromanes, it was only when I married hubs, who (tho he is my cousin and our mothers were sisters) had a very different upbringing and spoke only Rromanes at home, that I learned any. And when hubs and I announced our engagement, his brothers (2 of whom are very traditional indeed) initially opposed our marriage, because I am, in their words a “diddakoiâ€, mix raced. They accept me now though and say I am officially one of them. Thanks I believe to my cooking skills! He he.

As a result of my upbringing, the response to DD being at uni has been pretty positive. My mams (who’s a very feisty lady) has always been keen to encourage us to be enquiring and learn as much as we can and that’s why we were sent to school. I didn’t like it much, but I love reading and I’m sure its through her example that I spend so much time with my nose in a book. She taught herself to read as a young adult, and was determined that we would not miss out, as she felt she had growing up. I learned a lot of other things from her too … like how to light a fire, tell which plants are safe to eat, and skin a rabbit! Thankfully I don’t do much rabbit skinning these days … oh the smell of them cooking … don’t even go there.

I know this won’t go down well with a lot of people, but yes, the men have a much more relaxed approach to being pure for their wedding day than the women are allowed. They are treated very differently from birth, they’re allowed to be far more irresponsible and are allowed a much longer childhood (tho isn’t that the case for most men?) than we women are. Having said that tho, sleeping around doesn’t happen as much as you’d expect because obviously none of the single girls want to give themselves to someone who doesn’t intend to marry them, so the men would have to be “playing the field†with Gawdja women and not their own kind, which would be very much frowned upon. Me? Yes, I saved myself for my wedding day.

Thank you for your kind words about hubs! No one else in our family (thankfully) has been afflicted with his horrible illness. He does pretty well with it, but in the grand scheme of things, he is one of the very unfortunate few, for whom the course of his illness has turned out to be chronic. Most people, the vast majority, who have schizophrenia (we never say “schizophrenic†– to do so is to define him by his illness, which we feel to be unfair. He is a great many things, and having this is only a small part of who he is) will be ill, get treatment and go on to live a pretty normal, if not totally normal life. Hubs has been very unlucky in that it hasn’t worked out this way for him. He is pretty disabled by his illness to the point where we must accept he’ll never be able to work again. But we still have a good life. I’ve learned 2 things that have really helped … have a strict routine to our days, and most important of all, keep a sense of humour! It is hard sometimes but we truly have a pretty happy life together. He was diagnosed at 21 and is 35 now so for us it is just something we’ve learned to live with which to us, now, is normal.

I have 2 questions for you … if any one can tell me please? What does D/S stand for?

And will I ever be a tater tot, or am I doomed to be condemning everyone to Hell for ever and beyond? I envy those of you with this hallowed title!

Awful tho it sounds, we actually luuurrrve tater tot casserole … haven’t had it in a while mind.

Love, Mami Bear xxxx

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I have 2 questions for you … if any one can tell me please? What does D/S stand for?

And will I ever be a tater tot, or am I doomed to be condemning everyone to Hell for ever and beyond? I envy those of you with this hallowed title!

D/S stands for Dominate/Submissive relationship.

No, you won't be cursed with the Tator Tot status forever. As you work your way up the ranks by posting, your status will change.

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Thank you for explaining that Hermione!

Yay I better get posting then ... except when I get to Tater Tot-dom, I'll have to stop, won't I, else I'll morph into something else ...

I read my last post out to hubs (yes, he does vet everything I write and today he wasn't about when I posted earlier) and as a result he has asked me to tell you all something that he feels is very important.

He is concerned that people might be questioning why we haven't got more children than our one precious DD, when it is normal in our culture to have as many as we can, and that the conclusion people would come to, from some of the questions that's been asked here, is that we don't want to have children because we are cousins and are therefore worried about birth defects. This isn't the reason at all, but it's something we've been asked before, by people we know IRL. I was trying to skirt around this issue, because I feel that it's no one's business but ours, but he feels it needs to be explained because of the generally negative attitude towards married cousins in society, so here goes ...

The reason we've only one child, at the moment, is that DD is not hubs's biological daughter. I've been married before. The circumstances behind the end of my first marriage, and my being allowed by our family and wider community to remarry, aren't things I want to share here. But this explains why we only have 1 child. We celebrated our 5th wedding anniversary in May this year.

Divorce and remarriage in our culture are still almost unheard of. But there are reasons when it is allowed to happen, mainly, for Biblical reasons, i.e. if a spouse is deserted. The deserted spouse may remarry, but the deserter can't (this includes, shocking as I know it is, women who leave their husbands because of violence. That's the tradition, but I am not saying this makes it OK though). I should also add, that Rromani fowki aren't necessarily Catholics, like us (hubs and I married in a registry office, but to us our marriage is as valid, as if Pope Benedict himself had conducted the ceremony) or even Christians. Our faith is generally dictated by the country or region where we settle, and the fact that much of our culture makes us seem like Fundies, is incidental, and not due to our religious beliefs, tho obviously these often do mirror the cutural traditions we uphold. One of the things I've been asked by curious colleagues more than once, and which always makes me smile, is "do you lot celebrate Christmas?" The answer is yes! We just don't have Father Christmas come down the chimney, that's all ... but we most definitely do get visited by the red hatted beardy one.

We'd love to have lots of children, but at the moment, because of hubs's illness, we don't feel that it would be fair to him, or the child, for us to have a baby just now. It has nothing to do with us being cousins, and everything to do with us respecting the needs of a child, and its right to be brought up in a settled and protective environment, by a mother who is able to devote all her attention to it. With hubs being ill like he is, it would just be totally selfish to bring a child into the world right now. We hope and pray it might change one day, but for the moment, we just cherish the daughter we've got. And make sure I check my temperature, very, very often LOL.

Well, that's that ... and now I'm off to see if I can get my post rate up high enough to be a TT before the night is out!

Love, Mami Bear xxxxxx

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OT:

And ChickeyMonkey, is that Geordi LaForge in your icon? I've been squinting at it all day trying to figure it out.

It's Shawn and Gus from Psych. It's from a season 5 episode. Shawn is the one wearing the helmet, and Gus is wearing the LaForge VISOR.

/OT

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Mami Bear!

I am SO excited that you have posted about your culture. Romani people are a subject that i have always found fascinating but locating information is so difficult due to the secrecy in which most live. I was shocked to read how so many became stateless after the fall of the USSR and the liberation of so many former Soviet states. It is shameful how Romani were and still are treated. Relocation to former lead mines where 100% of the child have birth defects and such. Awful!

I visited my best friend in Manchester a couple months back and she said it terrible how many of the caravan villages have been torn down with all the possessions still in so many but the EU and UK have such a different view of the "gypsy" groups than most of us in the states. I can see how this has led to so much secrecy and isolation among the Romani and Traveller communities. I hope that the arson and violence that had been so prevalent for while has subsided. The lack of investigation into such crimes was shocking.

I have been told that in Poland and some parts of Europe there are still the traditional wooden caravans. Is this correct?

If you have not read "Bury Me Standing" you should give it a go although I am sure you are more than familiar with most of the content.

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Hi Kathryn! :)

Yes I've heard of Bury Me Standing but not read it ... I really should.

I think there are still the wooden wagons (vardyia) in existence all around the world, tho certainly here in England they are mainly used just for special occasions, and not lived in year round (they are cramped and get very damp). My great uncle and aunt had one when I was really small tho even then, they also had a more modern trailer that they stayed in, when it got very cold ... I will never forget the smell of woodsmoke and paraffin and the creaky sound their wagon made whenever you moved in it. They are very dark inside because mostly they have no windows. Some of the ones you get at the horse fairs (which is where people mainly take them, to show out with) are so beautiful, hand decorated with gold leaf and all velvet and tassels and lace inside. The barges you see on the canals in England use to be lived in by Gypsies too ... they were called Bargees. I know someone who says his grandparents were Bargees. Their canal boats were beautifully painted and of course had the lovely enamelware as well, gorgeously hand decorated with flowers and other folk art symbols.

I saw the episode of Gypsy Weddings where an "illegal" site was razed to the ground by bulldozers. It made me weep as I saw people's homes being trashed like bits of rubbish. My hubs's family trailer was burned down most likely by anti-Gypsy arsonists, when he was a child, and he's never recovered from the trauma of this (not least because traditionally, vardyia were ritually burned, after the occupants had passed away, to set free their spirits, so it is a great insult to our whole culture for our homes to be destroyed in this way, when the occupants are still living. Fortunately none of hubby's family were inside it at the time).

It may seem to some as if we want to have "something for nothing", a place to live, but without paying for it, but all we'd really truely like is a permanent, safe "atchin tan" (place to stop) which is clean and pleasant to live on. And we do pay for our trailers and the cars to tow them! The official sites are often really badly maintained, with no proper washing facilities or public conveniences (Rromani fowki don't ever have bathrooms in their trailers, we think it is totally unhygienic to have your toilet under the same roof as your kitchen and instead prefer to "walk off" a distance away from our homes), and although within our culture we take pride in being exceptionally clean and tidy, there can be small travelling groups who probably aren't Rromani at all, that will use the official sites and leave them in a terrible state, giving us all a bad name, which the media latches on to, tarring us all with the same brush and giving rise to the public misconception that we are all, as I myself have been called before now, "dirty pikeys". It also isn't true, what the media says about Gypsies all "sponging" and living on state handouts. If you don't have a permanent address, you aren't eligible to claim them.

One day we'll have tolerance and understanding. In the meantime, we have learned to grow very thick skins. I've grown up knowing I was different, and that people might find my way of life hard to understand. I accept this, and I'm sure it isn't for everyone, not even for some of the younger generation of Rromani people, who have to balance the old ways, with the lure of the modern, Gawdja world around them. I know we haven't made it easy for ourselves, by choosing to remain so separate and so suspicious of the Gawdja people, so the lack of understanding is partly just ignorance, for which we Rromanies ourselves are in part to blame. I think that's where the Gypsy Wedding show fails most. It hasn't really built any :) bridges, not at least as we'd hoped, but it has at least opened up avenues of communication that didn't exist before. We were a kind of hidden community, before all this was aired on worldwide TV. Especially those of us (and there are more now, in houses than in trailers) who have moved into Gawdja dwellings.

But I would never leave my culture, even if it meant swapping it for one of acceptance and being part of the majority.

And I feel very welcome here at FJ, regardless of some of the cultural differences. We're all different, really, so live and let live, I say!

Love, Mami Bear xxxxx

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When I watch this show on TLC, I keep trying to find something to like about the Traveller culture and I keep failing.

Yes! Me too! They go on and on about preserving their culture and I'm like "what's to preserve"?

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Well, looks like one of the girls from that show filed for divorce and has a child! The 22 year old girl, Joan, the one who had serious doubts, apparently filed for divorce last year and, at that time, was 8 months pregnant.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1325602/Joan-Furey-files-divorce-year-marriage-8-months-pregnant.html

Good for her! I am actually reminded of the "Pink Saris" in India, female activists who are trying to break free from the cycle of abuse and caste politics that affect women in rural India.

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It may seem to some as if we want to have "something for nothing", a place to live, but without paying for it, but all we'd really truely like is a permanent, safe "atchin tan" (place to stop) which is clean and pleasant to live on. And we do pay for our trailers and the cars to tow them! The official sites are often really badly maintained, with no proper washing facilities or public conveniences (Rromani fowki don't ever have bathrooms in their trailers, we think it is totally unhygienic to have your toilet under the same roof as your kitchen and instead prefer to "walk off" a distance away from our homes...

This is really interesting Mami Bear! Thanks!

I was just wondering, do your people in general pay taxes on their income or is it mostly working for cash under the table (absolutely no judgement on that here. I think I might have been one of the non-gypsy travellers you mentioned earlier as I lived in a camper and worked in a ski resort for cash for years)?

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Well, looks like one of the girls from that show filed for divorce and has a child! The 22 year old girl, Joan, the one who had serious doubts, apparently filed for divorce last year and, at that time, was 8 months pregnant.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1325602/Joan-Furey-files-divorce-year-marriage-8-months-pregnant.html

That was the saddest wedding I have ever watched. You could tell she didn't want to get married and was only doing it because she felt pressured into it.

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Mami Bear,

Thank you so much for answering SO many questions but most Americans have never encountered someone from your culture other than the stereotypical movie "gypsies".

If you don't mind another....I read that the Romani do not consider the gawdja to be "clean" and if outsiders are allowed to live among the Romani they (non-Roma) are not allowed to help prepare or serve the food. No insult at all if this is true. Beliefs that have evolved over a long period of time are very real to those who hold them.

I had also read that even those who build houses very often don't put a toilet inside (even a very large home) because of the hygeine issue. Please tell me if I am wrong! I certainly don't want to assume something is correct just because it was in print.

Thank you for all the time you have taken to respond. Roma must be similar to our Amish culture in that it is so different from our own that we are drawn to learn more.

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This is very interesting to read - thanks for the inside info! I was sucked into the show because I've always been intrigued by gypsy life, and am sadly addicted to wedding and birth shows. In the few novels and books I've found about the lives of gypsies, I've read about burning the possessions of the deceased, but never knew why until now - I just figured it was out of respect, so no one else would use the things in a manner that might not be honorable. Our family tradition of cremation works the same way - not sure where it originated, but it's always been taboo to be buried b/c of the belief that the spirit might be trapped. Always interesting to learn beliefs that differ from ours, and ones that are similar, from other cultures! I also must applaud you and your husband for using discretion, and not breeding like rabbits "just because it's what we do" when you feel it might not be wise; it must be tough to go against the grain in such a major area of your life when others might look down on you for it. Not saying you should or should not have babies - just that it's nice to see people who actually think stupid things like "Geez, is this really the right time to procreate?", amidst all the (frequently dysfunctional) fundie litters we read about here!

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Dawdy dawdy everyone, what a lot of comments!

I must confess to being totally humbled by the positive interest people have shown here … especially, coming as I do from the snarkworthy side, as it were, that most of the responses are so lovely and not negative as I had expected, at all. Having been trained from the earliest age to conceal my Rromani heritage from other people it is incredible open up and find so many warm responses. It also makes it easier to talk here, tho of course that’s also because we’re not all face to face. But thank you. It has been a very enriching experience, opening up here. After today’s long post below tho, may I politely ask if I could take a break from replying to questions? Hubs and I got about 30 minutes together yesterday evening because I was so busy on the computer … that is definitely not good! I’ll be back soon tho.

Not That Kind, thank you for not judging! Oooh taxes. That’s a big bone of contention! He he! Here in England it seems we have one of the most complicated tax systems in the world. People like me, who work for an employer, don’t have a choice about tax, it’s taken PAYE so we pay it whether or not we want to … as I am sure it is in most other developed countries. If you’re self employed you get a huge massive form to fill in annually. My first hubs use to get me to fill this in for him so I knew he paid taxes. And hubby now, I know also paid his taxes or he wouldn’t be entitled to the disability pension he gets now he is unable to work. He was joint owner of a Roofing business with his brother number 3. But I am sure there are people (Rromani and Gawdja) who don’t pay tax!

I think one of the main money issues which the media has really latched on to with regard to the whole travelling population, is the non payment of council tax. This is a levy all people in England, whether they own their homes or not, have to pay, and there is a sliding scale depending on the size of the home you occupy. If you live in a trailer then you still have to pay council tax even tho your home isn’t fixed to the land you’re on as the tax applies to the land, not the trailer, so on most legal sites, you will pay a rental fee of which a portion of the council tax is part, and you don’t get a separate bill for this. Of course, if you keep on moving about, and live on illegal sites, then you aren’t going to be paying this tax. I think where there are illegal sites (and especially those, where permanent brick residences have also been built) then there is a big problem with non payment of council tax, and the public, quite rightly, feel this is unacceptable.

Now food. Hmmm this is something Kathryn where I think you might know more than I do! I have never really questioned why we have the attitudes to food that we do, but to be truthful, it is through this, more than anything else, that I find I have to open up face to face to people about my culture. Food has a lot of significance for us, but to be honest I always thought this was just a particular foible of my mams and her family (who are of Italian Rromani descent) and also, growing up during the war, when rationing was happening (tho, self sufficient as our family was, living off the land, I don’t think this was as much a problem for them, as it was for house dwellers relying on shops). To my mam, food equals love. And I’ve grown up to believe that too. In our culture if your man is big (and mine is), it is a sign you are looking after him properly and in that sense is highly desirable both to the women and the men, for whom it’s still a symbol of success as much as having a good wife. But we have all sorts of issues with cleanliness over food, which are more to do with how its prepared than by whom.

When it comes to eating food Gawdja people have prepared, hmmm. Whenever we have a potluck or party at work and people bring food along, I don’t ever join in (tho I always bring food to share) and then I get asked (I am naturally extremely slight) “are you anorexic†or “are you feeling sick?†to which I then explain no, but that I don’t like to eat food prepared by strangers (and tell them why that is so). Our DD is particularly fussy about this and for years at school would refuse to eat anything at all, even the meals I sent her with, because she would only eat food prepared and served at home. She is better now.

We do eat out at restaurants (for example McDonalds) where food has been prepared by Gawdja people, because we can be confident (or fairly!) that the hygiene standards are going to be good and the tools used to prepare it will have been dishwashed or sterilised, but eating at the home of a Gawdja person would be out of the question even tho I totally accept that probably most are just as clean as we are.

It isn’t as simple as that, tho. Years ago, when our grandparents were children, it was considered unclean even to step inside the home of a Gawdja person (we don’t use the term “Gawdja†derisively, I should add, it is just our word for a non Gypsy person, it has no other meaning than that). And the idea of eating something prepared with utensils that might have been washed in the same bowl as clothes, was as bad to us then, as the thought of eating something prepared with utensils that had been washed in your toilet. Talking of which, when we had our tied cottage years back, originally the only toilet was outside. But then the farmer who owned them insisted on putting toilets in all the cottages and to be honest I don’t think any of us complained! To this day hubs is very particular about the cleanliness of our toilet … I clean the entire bathroom twice a day, paying particular attention (for some reason known only to him) to the window frames. It may sound a bit OCD I know, but he thinks toilets are really disgusting. I've never heard of anyone purposely building a house, so I don't know about whether they'd build the bathroom separately, but I'd guess yes. My oldest brother in law owns a smallholding, but he has a trailer stopped on it (more than one in fact, often we sleep in one if our family is large, and live in another one during the day and may have a third just for storage) not a house and yes the bathroom facilities are separate.

Now, moving on … well preserving our culture. This is really to me, not about the traditions we have such as D/S marriages, purity and cleanliness and so on, as much as the bigger things that affect all of society, Rromani and Gawdja alike. The deterioration of family values, the growth of gross materialism, too much TV, poor education systems, poverty and inequality. Yes, these to us are seen as a problem because of the integration of our society into the wider Gawdja one, and I think people of my mam’s generation, see keeping separate as the way to maintain our culture as it has always been.

To us one of the most important things we do want to preserve is our independence, our refusal to rely on the Gawdja world for our well being or to accept what is seen by many as interference. We like to stand on our own feet, for example, we prefer to work for ourselves rather than an employer if we can, and we never, ever get into debt. We pay cash, many Rromani people even today don’t have bank accounts (yes they’re probably also the ones not paying their taxes too LOL).

But in the grand scheme of things, this whole issue is about much more than keeping separate. It’s about everyone, Rromani or not, going back to traditional values, that will preserve all of culture, be it one like mine or a more progressive one. It’s about losing the singlemindedness “me†attitude that seems so prevalent these days. In that respect, I feel as Kathryn says, that there are many parallels between our culture and that of the Amish. There is no “I†in Gypsy …

One thing that the TV show only partly seemed to highlight, is how family and community focused our culture is. It is never about the individual. The idea of us all living in separate units with only occasional family contact outside the immediate nuclear family is completely at odds with the way Rromani society is structured. Although it may seem as if the role of Rromani women is one of isolation, “stuck†inside a trailer doing housekeeping and childcare all day, it should be seen in the light of this, and the fact that all around us, are other family members and friends, who share the same responsibilities.

It works too at the other end of life – there’s no way my mams will ever go into a care home. We’ll always care for her within the family. For me certainly, there is a great security in a life lived this way, knowing my role, and what’s expected of me, and feeling the support of all our family around us (especially given hubby’s illness and the way this has impacted on our lives). It might seem like I have few choices to make, but I feel I have very definitely chosen to live my life the way I do and I’m very happy because of it. But that doesn't mean I think it is the only way to be. Each to their own.

MrsKay thank you for your comments about our “family planning†decisions! It is very heartening to hear them. In point of fact I think I’ve had just as many negative comments from people who question our choice from a religious perspective, as from a cultural one. The “I thought you Catholics had millions of kids†comment has passed my ears more than once … my mams is a bit disappointed that she only has 3 grandchildren (my sis not only turned her back on her Rromani culture but on her Catholic faith too) but, well … I have a few more years yet, so we will have to wait and see. I always thought 4 or 5 would be nice so if we have 2 sets of twins, that’ll do us nicely! Twins do run in our family …

It’s great to read about other people’s cultural traditions here too. Mine might be one of the less well known ones, but I think everyone’s culture is fascinating … it’s what shapes who we are, and where we are going, too and it is so interesting to learn about how and why people do the things they do. Is that called anthropology? Does that mean we’re all anthropologists here then?

Love, Mami Bear xxxx

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I wrote a long post in Yuku and my phone lost it and I never remembered to write again...So here goes!

We have Romani in Finland too and I also have a wee bit Romani blood in my veins (very wee bit, my grandfather's mother was Roma/gypsy) but our family has never followed any rules they have. We have Romani relatives still, for example my female cousin is with Roma and they have a child. She does wear a skirt but she doesn't follow any other dressing rules. It is also not suitable for non-Romani to wear "full skirts".

I have seen one episode of this series and their culture is so much different than local one. For example, girls and women would never ever wear clothes like that if they are following the traditional path and most of them are. There really aren't much space for living between cultures. When girl hits puberty or a few years after that, they have to decide if they wear a full garment or not. And if they choose to wear what they call full skirts, they cannot change back.

Their clothing style is very different, I found one picture where there are both women and men: http://savonlinnanromanilahetys.com/gre ... tys163.jpg

That black skirt is made of velvet and it takes 9-12 metres to make one. It weighs up to 12 kilos and it is heavy to wear (I have tried on). The weight of the skirt lies on "sausage" which is tied on hips. Typical everyday skirt costs 800 to 1200 euros. Women are not allowed to show bare skin in their arms or decolté area. Men never wear jeans or tight trousers and always wear white shirt with long sleeves. Children can wear same clothes than rest of the nation in school but when they get older they usually start to wear same kind of clothes than older Romani. This kind of clothing style is seen also in Sweden.

What else...they have very strict purity rules. For example, you can't use same towel to your face and body. They have a different towel to face only. You can't drink water from bathroom tab. You can't place your mug or plate in chair, it gets "dirty". "Dirty" places are something where people sit or lie down. You can't put your table clothes, kitchen towels, plates/mugs/etc. in those places. You can't wipe top of the table with the same cloth you wipe chairs or other parts of the table. You can't wash women's clothes with men´s clothes or toddler's clothes with adult's or underwear with outerwear or kitchen towels with something else. You can't hang women's cloths to dry somewhere where they can be seen. Daughters can't be alone in the same room with their father. When girl hits puberty she can't go above her parents because it is "dirty". If something gets under skirt, it becomes "dirty". Sex is something people never discuss of. If you get pregnant, you don't mention it and hide it as long as possible because it reminds directly about sex. You don't undress in front of photos, they are turned around. When older uncle died in my childhood neighbourhood Romani family, they burned all his clothes and other stuff. Even the bed where he died.

Romani people here don't get married so often. We have religious Romani but most of them are secular. When young couple want to be together, a girl usually runs off. And usually a father and/or brothers are expected to get the girl back home. My Romani friend considered herself to be lucky when she had only a broken nose and she was allowed to keep her hair long (some families cut hair because short hair is seen ugly). This happens usually once or twice and after that there isn't violence and the relationship is accepted. This is only for Romani girls, my cousin never experienced something like this.

Romani are poorly integrated in our society even though they have lived here for centuries. One of the reason is that they don't think they are Finnish. When they talk about non-Romanis/kaajes, they say those Finns or peasants or whities. Because they don't want to be part of this nation, they have problems and very much with law. There are prejudices against Romani people and some are very well earned. They rarely have education, some manage to go through 9-year basic comprehensive school, my friend can't read :(. They shoplift and live on allowances. I know this sounds harsh but this is reality. There are some who are well educated but most of those rare ones have left the culture behind. Of course there is our own society too to blame, especially very harsh history towards Romani (like in 1594 church meeting in Linköping Romani were banned to have church services: no baptizing, no rights to wed, no funerals or place for graves in church yards etc. and queen Christina of Sweden ordered in 1637 that Romanis must be hanged). But they have had same rights as citizen as everyone else since Finland declared independence in 1917, this whole integration thing can't work without both side's co-operation, sadly.

There is violence problen too. They still have their own area rules and for this reason my cousin and her family can't move to a certain town because someone's forefather said something to this other family's forefather and of course nobody remembers what :roll: They have stabbing incidents once in awhile.

Edit: gaaah, idioms and prepositions are so hard :oops:

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Daughters can't be alone in the same room with their father.
Is that really a part of the culture? That seems so... sad. While we didn't "date" my father and I spent so much one-on-one time when I was a girl, talking, watching movies, reading together, taking long walks, going out just the two of us, even taking trips. I can't imagine our relationship being the same without that time just with him (and since he died while I was just a teenager, those memories are especially precious). That seems really sad if it's culturally widespread.
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This is such a love fest I'm sure this won't be popular, but it's interesting that gypsies, romani, don't want to be judged by others, but judge non-Gypsies to be so dirty that their food is unsanitary and their houses can't be entered...OK. I guess that is ok if it's cultural tradition rather than simply prejudice.

The sexualization of the young girls in dress, makeup, hair as seen at the weddings and parties is creepy to me and the lack of education among the women is pathetic.

Fundies don't get a pass on this stuff, and in my book, neither do the Travellers, gypsies, whatever name is correct. Some cultural traditions--widows throwing themselves on their husband's pyre, stoning women whose dowries are inadequate, keeping women ignorant and uneducated, forcing women into early marriages to men they hardly know.... are not worth preserving.

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In our culture if your man is big (and mine is),

What does this mean? I'm getting a really unattractive mental picture right now. How tall is your husband and how much does he weigh?

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I'm not surprised that's Joan's marriage isn't working out. Her episode really bothered me for some reason.

Agreed. I actually stayed up too late after watching that episode because I felt so bad for her (and had to watch something else to take my mind off of it). It seemed like she really didn't want to marry him.

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You know what, Librul, you are right.

There is some serious whatthefuckery going on here.

illnesses often aren't dealt with until the stage where it is impossible not to see a doctor

aaaaaaaaaand...then you expect the evil doc to turn a miracle when you've waited way too long. Nice.

the men have a much more relaxed approach to being pure for their wedding day than the women are allowed

:roll:

hubs (yes, he does vet everything I write)

um, why?

He is pretty disabled by his illness to the point where we must accept he’ll never be able to work again. But we still have a good life

So what's good about your life then exactly, cleaning window frames to your husband's specifications? He can't work, can't provide for you--which you admit is one of the big things in your culture--so how is he being a man then? What do his brothers have to say about that? As long as you work hard and you feed him well that's all that matters?

One day we'll have tolerance and understanding.

But in the meantime you'll continue to refuse food prepared by people not of your own culture.

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Yeah, I'm sorry but I have to agree. I'm sorry Mami Bear, you seem like a lovely woman and I don't want you to feel unwelcome here or like you are personally being attacked, but there are simply elements of your culture that I find disturbing, in much the same way I find them disturbing in fundies.

Divorce and remarriage in our culture are still almost unheard of. But there are reasons when it is allowed to happen, mainly, for Biblical reasons, i.e. if a spouse is deserted. The deserted spouse may remarry, but the deserter can't (this includes, shocking as I know it is, women who leave their husbands because of violence. That's the tradition, but I am not saying this makes it OK though).

Is this really the kind of tradition you want to preserve? Punishing women for leaving abusive spouses is a tradition of further abusing a victim and it's reprehensible. It doesn't get a pass because it's traditional. It was traditional to burn witches at stakes too.

In our culture, women are seen as the possession of their husband, but this isn't necessarily as negative as some people might think. Imagine something that you have, which you value greatly. A piece of jewellery perhaps, or something of great sentimental value. Don't you really cherish that item, treasure it, protect it jealously, and feel proud and fond of it, and get joy from every time you look at it or handle it? That's how our husbands treat us. Like precious gifts.

Yeah, but you're still an "item" that is "owned", rather than a human being. And the way you put it makes your entire value seem to stem from the feelings you bring out in your husband. It's not that you have an inherent worth as a person, as a woman, as a partner; no, your worth comes from the fact that you bring about feelings of fondness in your husband. I can't articulate this the way I want to, but I see it as a major issue. I don't like this argument among Christian fundies and I can't give you a pass on the same argument simply because you're Rromani.

The reason we don't value formal education much is because in our culture, the sort of work you're going to do to make a living is likely to be manual and therefore being formally educated isn't considered necessary (hubs is a Roofer by profession). You tend to also work in the profession of your family, so finding a job isn't really a problem, tho if someone hears you're a Gypsy it can be.

I think it's great that you value education for your daughter, but don't you see the issue with this practice among other Rromani? Effectively the parents have made the decision to cut off all other options for their children besides homemaking/manual work. If a child decided they wanted to do something else when they grew up, they would have to reenter formal education as an adult and learn basic skills that are taught to children.

Also, it seems like you are responsible for at least the bulk of the housework in your home (four loads of laundry, etc.) yet you are also the breadwinner. Why doesn't your husband take on some of that responsibility, as his illness will allow, since you also have work responsibilities?

Look, I find the treatment of traveller communities horrifying. Ingrained prejudice is wrong. But I also find many of your traditions and cultural norms equally wrong, especially the parts that seem to take away options from children to live a different life than the ones chosen by their forebearers. Honestly, any woman who feels it is necessary to allow her husband to "vet" her writing and communication is being treated with less respect and given less autonomy than the average teenager.

To sum it up, I have to agree with Librul that some traditions are simply not worth preserving.

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