Gypsy Wedding

[Soldevi]

Is that really a part of the culture? That seems so... sad. While we didn't "date" my father and I spent so much one-on-one time when I was a girl, talking, watching movies, reading together, taking long walks, going out just the two of us, even taking trips. I can't imagine our relationship being the same without that time just with him (and since he died while I was just a teenager, those memories are especially precious). That seems really sad if it's culturally widespread.

Yep. Especially so if daughter is older (meaning, she is already in puberty). It has everything to do with respecting older people and parents (in their view of it). When a child gets older, all these norms activate. Even if they are a close-knit family, boys no longer sit right next to their mother or girls to their father, not in sofas, not in car. Girls go with their mother and boys with their father, they rarely mix in traditional families.

[Mami Bear]

Oh golly gosh … now I see what a can of worms has been opened up here, I can’t stay silent on this …

I think a lot of the criticism directed here at me personally is about the fact that although to many of you’s I seem to be (well OK I AM) in such blind subordination to my husband, it looks like he’s not taking his part in living up to his role. I feel I must say something here in his defence, even if the rest of what you say, I shall not try to defend as it applies to the wider culture I come from and not just me specifically.

My hubs is ill … really ill. If you’ve never visited a psychiatric unit (and I hope you never have to, tho with one in four of us likely to suffer mental illness at some point in our lives, I’m sure there will be people reading this who have, sadly, and I share in you & your loved one's suffering if this is so), then possibly some of you may not be able to know, just exactly what the symptoms of severe mental illness are. My hubby is well enough to be at home now (we celebrate July 4th here at home, even tho we’re in England, because that is the anniversary of the day, 3 years ago now, when he was declared well enough to come home from hospital for good to be with me) but he was in a secure unit (under section) for 7 months back in 2007 – 2008. Those 7 months were the darkest days of both our lives. When I married him he wasn’t as ill as he is now, but I married him in sickness and in health, and I loved him even on the worse possible days, when he couldn’t even speak to me, didn’t even recognise me. By the grace of God, he’ll never be that ill again. He takes 2 different meds, which after a lot of tweaking about, now work pretty well, but both of them have major side effects, including increased appetite, slowed metabolism (and hence weight gain), sleepiness, apathy and inability to concentrate. There are many others, they are pretty much, as he himself puts it, a “chemical straitjacketâ€, but we think that despite this, the pills are a better altenative to the symptoms of his illness. But it is this, that makes him the way he is. He would give anything to be able to work, to have some sort of independent role in life, but he can’t. So much of my willingness to be such a submissive wife, is due not to the demands of my culture, but to the fact that this way at least, he feels he has some control, some worth as a man, in a culture where being a man’s man, is what is expected of you. I do it because I love him, because it breaks my heart when I think how he has suffered. And I do it willingly. This morning was a typical one at our home. I was rushed off my feets, trying to tidy up, fix the pack ups, sort out the first laundry, hubs was kicking off over something and the bag I was taking down to the rammel tan (rubbish shed) split all over the kitchen floor. I could have wept, but I looked up at hubby’s beautiful (and he really is beautiful, even when he’s kicking off) face and thought to myself “I do all this for youâ€. Maybe its because we are not just husband and wife, we are cousins also, I don’t know, but I love him so much, I would do anything, just anything, to make him happy.

Judge me, by all means (I expect you to … I realise a lot of what I say is ultra contentious), but please, please don’t judge my husband.

I was happy to stay here, despite the possibility of negative reactions, because that’s nothing new, as I said before, I’ve learned to have a very thick skin, and I know, I totally realise, that my way of life is not only completely unimaginable to many of you, but also to a lot of people, flying in the face of many of the values of modern society. That’s OK. I accept that … I wanted to speak up, just so you could read the facts, even if they weren't going to change anyone's opinion, but (and it is my fault entirely, for even mentioning him, I could have described most of my life without even giving hint of his existence) to read comments that imply criticism of my lovely hubs, well, I can’t stay and read this. It upsets me too much. That’s my problem, no one else’s. Call me a coward, call me a quitter … I probably am, I’ve been called worse things before.

But I love my hubby more than my fellowshipping with folks on a message board, so this is my last post here.

You are lovely people (yes, I mean ALL of you’s), intelligent, honest and brave enough to stand up for what you believe in. Thank you for having the patience to read all my long posts and to call into question things that other people probably should, but don’t have the courage to do so. Long may FJ be around to speak the truth, because there are a lot of people out there, who won't.

Love, Mami Bear xxxx

[debrand]

MamaBear, do Romani realize that education can help their people? Romani lawyers could help their people with legal problems and Romani doctors would probably be able to respect traditions while treating the patient.

Why doesn't your husband do housework? I realize that traditionally women might do housework but it sounds as if your husband's illness makes it hard for him to work outside the home. Can't he clean the house though?

[formergothardite]

So do you think it is a good thing that women are encouraged to stay with abusive husbands and if they dare to leave they can't get remarried and, I'm assuming, they are so poorly educated it would be very hard for them to support themselves?

ETA: I'm just trying to understand why people think this is an okay way to live. Even in my fundie upbringing leaving for abuse was not only encouraged, but expected.

[debrand]

I learned a lot of other things from her too … like how to light a fire, tell which plants are safe to eat, and skin a rabbit! Thankfully I don’t do much rabbit skinning these days … oh the smell of them cooking … don’t even go there

I'd love to learn which plants are safe to eat.

I know this won’t go down well with a lot of people, but yes, the men have a much more relaxed approach to being pure for their wedding day than the women are allowed. They are treated very differently from birth, they’re allowed to be far more irresponsible and are allowed a much longer childhood (tho isn’t that the case for most men?) than we women are.

My grandmother was my main parent so I grew up observing some old fashioned views. I always felt like less was expected from my younger brother. Nan also waited on men, which always drove me crazy. At the same time, she actually had a lot of prejudice against men. To her, men weren't smart enought to handle responsibility and she seemed to feel sorry for them. Do women in Romani cultures have similar views toward men

[luckylibrarian]

Mami Bear,

I hope you don't stop posting. I really enjoy reading your posts. I've never met anyone from your culture (at least I don't think so) and this has been very educational.

I'm sorry that your husband is ill and needed to be hospitalized. I think I kind of get where you're coming from with regards to taking care of your husband. When my father had cancer, my mother took care of him and the house and worked. It was a huge job, but she never would have asked him to pick up a mop because he was just too sick and all of his energy was spent fighting the cancer. Plus she loved him and wanted to take care of him when he was sick. It was the only way she could help the situation.

[Soldier of the One]

Mami Bear,

I also hope you stay. I think communication between Rromani and non-Rromani communities is so crucial and we can learn a lot about your way of life. I might have some real disagreements with your culture, just as I have with the fundie culture, but no culture is monolithic or black-and-white and there are also things I can really respect. Besides, there's nothing wrong with disagreement as long as we can be rational and civil about it. We can all be our own people.

I am so sorry to hear your husband is so unwell. Whether you stay on FJ or not, I wish you and your dear hubs and your community all the best!

[fundiefan]

I have nothing personal against Mami Bear and no judgment, per se, of her or her personal life. But, the fact is the totally different cultures and values mean I do judge, whether it's conscious or based on being unable to comprehend.

I do not, however, have any interest in accepting or understanding cultures that treat women as second class, invalidate education, promote abuse by creating 'rules' where women can't leave/divorce, that see the world around them as unclean to the point of not eating food prepared by anyone else, etc.

I love learning about other cultures and ways of life, to the point of obsession almost. But, I think I've learned enough about gypsy culture.

I really don't want to come across as judgmental, but I know I will because, well, that's what I'm doing. Maybe it's because I don't understand, but I can't fathom marrying a first cousin. Look at the old European monarchies for tangible evidence beyond personal values - genes that don't get mixed with other genes manifest. The Hapsburg's are a prime example, the mental insanity was rampant and just kept going because of cousin marriage so as not to 'taint' the blood. The under bite was to the point of being deformed and prevented communication and overall health. The thing is, blood NEEDS to be 'tainted'. And personally, my first cousins are like my siblings and our shared relatives and ancestry is a reason NOT to marry one of them.

I don't know. I don't want to be a bitch, but I see too much in the gypsy culture that gets my hackles up just like extreme fundie culture.

Anyway. Mami Bear, thanks for the insight into your culture. I think you're been open and that is hard to do, I know, when in an environment where everyone is so obviously different and will not hold back on questions and disagreement.

[treemom]

Mami bear,

My father is schizophrenic. You won't find someone more compassionate about it than I, even though I lived through some of the worst effects of his mental illness. But I don't care...even if he was living up to his end of the bargain as you put it...humans are not property, no one should be in blind subordination to anyone else. Furthermore, to be honest, you certainly shouldn't be in subordination to someone so mentally ill. You should be an equal partner.

[demgirl]

Mami bear,

My father is schizophrenic. You won't find someone more compassionate about it than I, even though I lived through some of the worst effects of his mental illness. But I don't care...even if he was living up to his end of the bargain as you put it...humans are not property, no one should be in blind subordination to anyone else. Furthermore, to be honest, you certainly shouldn't be in subordination to someone so mentally ill. You should be an equal partner.

I have real hesitancy about saying this because Mami Bear does seem so lovely and I have so much sympathy for people who live with mentally ill family members. I know the hell my parents and sister went through when I was severely depressed for several years, not to mention a decade of living with me when my OCD/anxiety/phobias were terrible, so I can only applaud those who care for a mentally ill sibling/child/friend/partner. But I have to agree with treemom on this, and frankly, I have to go slightly further -- You cannot have it both ways. If he is too mentally ill to assist you with basic housework, he is too mentally ill to be dominant over you.

[JesusFightClub]

New as I am I hope Mami Bear stays too. I have fundamental disagreements with her lifestyle and won't pretend otherwise but she opened a window on a world I for one knew nothing of. It would be good to hear more of her thoughts.

[Kathryn31]

I just have to say that some of the comments made towards Mami Bear were outright hurtful and mean. She came here and was very open and gracious to everyone even those who asked questions that were unkind. Almost every poster treated her with the same respect but a couple were meant to be inflammatory. She is in a closed culture that has almost nothing to do with society. Their views and radically different and they have been ingrained for centuries. Those views are not going to vanish and change because someone disagrees.

She obviously loves her husband, divorced her first, sent her daughter to college and works outside the home. She seems to have an upbeat attitude towards it all and now she is gone. I couldn't imagine a more interesting contributor on this board but now she feels unwelcome and felt she had to choose between FJ and this board.

I think her leaving is a huge loss.

Before anyone starts up the flames stop for a second and think about it. She may see your point on some things but does anyone really expect her to throw her husband to the curb because her is the head of the house and has an illness? She chose this at an age where she was fully aware of what the marriage entailed.

[Witsec6]

You know what, Librul, you are right.

There is some serious whatthefuckery going on here.

...

But in the meantime you'll continue to refuse food prepared by people not of your own culture.

Yeah this "unclean food" thing is just out and out racism if you ask me.

[valsa]

And let's not forget that her leaving may not even be what she wants. While I have no doubt she loves her husband, she's admitting he must vet everything she writes. Since they live in a culture where the man is expected to provide for his family, our discussing his inability to do so may have caused him to force her to leave.

[valsa]

I just have to say that some of the comments made towards Mami Bear were outright hurtful and mean. She came here and was very open and gracious to everyone even those who asked questions that were unkind. Almost every poster treated her with the same respect but a couple were meant to be inflammatory.

I'll respond since I was one of the first (if not the first) to be "mean" to her way back in the beginning of this thread. Frankly, I don't care who the messenger is or how "nice" they are, if they have a crap message.

Women are treated as objects in her culture and she's okay with this. I don't care how "open" and "gracious" she's been (which is arguable anyway), her message about the value of women is no different than that of Zsu Zsu or Gothard or any of a million other misogynists we talk about (and to) here and I'm not going to respond any differently to her than I would to them.

[Witsec6]

I just have to say that some of the comments made towards Mami Bear were outright hurtful and mean. She came here and was very open and gracious to everyone even those who asked questions that were unkind. Almost every poster treated her with the same respect but a couple were meant to be inflammatory. She is in a closed culture that has almost nothing to do with society. Their views and radically different and they have been ingrained for centuries. Those views are not going to vanish and change because someone disagrees.

She obviously loves her husband, divorced her first, sent her daughter to college and works outside the home. She seems to have an upbeat attitude towards it all and now she is gone. I couldn't imagine a more interesting contributor on this board but now she feels unwelcome and felt she had to choose between FJ and this board.

I think her leaving is a huge loss.

Before anyone starts up the flames stop for a second and think about it. She may see your point on some things but does anyone really expect her to throw her husband to the curb because her is the head of the house and has an illness? She chose this at an age where she was fully aware of what the marriage entailed.

I actually really disagree with you Kathryn. As far as I can see, the dissenters were just expressing their views. Mami Bear admitted that some things from her end look strange to us, and some of the things she said were actually quite disturbing from the point of view of people who have lived through extreme abuse. We snark on fundie Christians all the time for the same things, and in this case everyone was very respectful and thankful that MB was willing to share and discuss. Not argue. Aside from a couple of mild body snarks on her husband (and she did mention something along the lines of "the bigger the gypsy man, the better the gypsy wife"). The disagreens weren't hurtful, but were rather calling her on some extreme inconsistencies.

Adults make bad choices all the time. Mami Bear explains her culture and marriage in very similar ways to the Subservient Wives (Lina, Jessica, Emma, Emily) who we worry about all over the rest of the board. This sets off major warning bells for me, as I hate to think that women have to stand by bad choices because they made them "at an age where [they are] fully aware". It doesn't sound like she was fully aware of what more egalitarian marriages are like. I don't think that choosing marriage with a schizophrenic is an excellent choice, especially when he is unable to work outside the home and is resistant to doing any work inside the home. As far as I can tell, nobody told MB to leave her husband, but rather were wondering why she didn't adjust the dynamics of their relationship given his extreme health concerns.

I also hope Mami Bear comes back because I would like to hear more about Romani culture, maybe enough to change my mind about it, but as it stands I still don't like it and I stand by those commenters who voiced their own disagreements.

[bananacat]

If sexual "purity" is less important for men than for women, how can that possibly work? I'm assuming that homosexuality is taboo in Romani culture, so who do the men do it with? Setting up sex as a game where one person wins and one person loses can never be healthy.

[formergothardite]

I just have to say that some of the comments made towards Mami Bear were outright hurtful and mean. She came here and was very open and gracious to everyone even those who asked questions that were unkind. Almost every poster treated her with the same respect but a couple were meant to be inflammatory. She is in a closed culture that has almost nothing to do with society. Their views and radically different and they have been ingrained for centuries. Those views are not going to vanish and change because someone disagrees.

She obviously loves her husband, divorced her first, sent her daughter to college and works outside the home. She seems to have an upbeat attitude towards it all and now she is gone. I couldn't imagine a more interesting contributor on this board but now she feels unwelcome and felt she had to choose between FJ and this board.

I think her leaving is a huge loss.

Before anyone starts up the flames stop for a second and think about it. She may see your point on some things but does anyone really expect her to throw her husband to the curb because her is the head of the house and has an illness? She chose this at an age where she was fully aware of what the marriage entailed.

And they will never have a chance at change if they are not challenged. Any culture that treats women as obects who are owned by men and who encourage women to stay and be abused needs to be challenged.

[valsa]

If sexual "purity" is less important for men than for women, how can that possibly work? I'm assuming that homosexuality is taboo in Romani culture, so who do the men do it with? Setting up sex as a game where one person wins and one person loses can never be healthy.

I'm assuming there are either some Romani whores they don't talk about or that us non-Romani might not be clean enough to cook for them, but we're still okay to fuck.

[LilMissMetaphor]

[. Aside from a couple of mild body snarks on her husband (and she did mention something along the lines of "the bigger the gypsy man, the better the gypsy wife")

Yes, she brought up her husband's size when discussing the importance of food to their culture. When I asked what she meant by her husband being "big" I was not snarking, I was (and am) genuinely curious, and I'll tell you why.

We don't know her husband. All we know about him is what she chose to reveal to us. Any writer knows that as soon as you start to describe someone (by characteristics or by physical appearance) the readers naturally start to form an opinion of that person. If you describe his personality, but not his physical appearance (or vice versa) our minds do some filling in the blanks.

Mami Bear describes her husband by saying he has schizophrenia, he doesn't work, he expects certain things from her, he vets everything she writes, he is extremely possessive, and for some reason the most bothersome/misunderstood aspect of him is that we might wonder why they only have one child (when that is actually the last thing on our minds at this point). Whatever. Then she says he is big. What does his size have to do with anything? Nothing excepts it adds to the mental picture we're getting of him. Every new detail adds to the picture and at some point it makes a very unflattering image.

It has nothing to do with judging or being snarky; it's just the way the mind works, and she can't flounce out with a "you just don't understand" when she has painted a circle on a canvas and gets upset because someone says that they see a circle, not the Mona Lisa.

[formergothardite]

I think her leaving is probably less because she didn't want to stay and more because her husband (who let's not forget has to vet everything she writes) didn't like the fact we were questioning him controlling her like an object he owns.

[fundiefan]

I am kind of hesitant to take Mami Bear to task personally because I think she is sincere and open and she did come to the lions den, but, if she is going against her culture by working outside the home, not having kids, educating her daughter, divorcing her first husband and marrying another - why hold so tightly to the things like being a possession of her husband and refusing 'unclean' food from anyone who isn't a gypsy? How is that any different than the fundies who pick and choose which bible versus to apply to their lives and which to ignore? That's like saying that everyone else has to follow the rules but not me. How can you defend a culture and way of life as a whole when you are only partially living it in the first place? I think it's great that she works and doesn't suffer in poverty since her husband can't be the breadwinner.

I think it's wise to prevent children in her case. I think it's awesome that her daughter is being educated. And I think it's good that she got out of a bad marriage. Yet, she still holds some primitive, sometimes dangerous, views and she holds to them very tightly - and defends them as part of her culture. Which would be all well and good if she actually lived the way the culture dictates.

I'm not saying this very well and am being repetitive.

[demgirl]

I just have to say that some of the comments made towards Mami Bear were outright hurtful and mean. She came here and was very open and gracious to everyone even those who asked questions that were unkind. Almost every poster treated her with the same respect but a couple were meant to be inflammatory. She is in a closed culture that has almost nothing to do with society. Their views and radically different and they have been ingrained for centuries. Those views are not going to vanish and change because someone disagrees.

She obviously loves her husband, divorced her first, sent her daughter to college and works outside the home. She seems to have an upbeat attitude towards it all and now she is gone. I couldn't imagine a more interesting contributor on this board but now she feels unwelcome and felt she had to choose between FJ and this board.

I think her leaving is a huge loss.

Before anyone starts up the flames stop for a second and think about it. She may see your point on some things but does anyone really expect her to throw her husband to the curb because her is the head of the house and has an illness? She chose this at an age where she was fully aware of what the marriage entailed.

I don't understand. So, we aren't supposed to comment and point out our disagreement because it won't change the way that she lives? Under that logic, FJ should just shut down. I mean, that's what we do. It's our freaking raison d'etre. And if we think it's dangerous to hold some of these views if you're a Christian protestant fundamentalist, why is it wrong to think the same if the person in question is a Rromani? If that is how we operate, then the accusations of us persecuting people for their beliefs are right b/c then we aren't disagreeing with them because of their ideas, their lifestyle, their morals or values -- we are disagreeing with them because they are Christian protestant evangelical fundamentalists who hold those ideas, lifestyles, morals and values.

[fundiefan]

I don't understand. So, we aren't supposed to comment and point out our disagreement because it won't change the way that she lives? Under that logic, FJ should just shut down. I mean, that's what we do. It's our freaking raison d'etre. And if we think it's dangerous to hold some of these views if you're a Christian protestant fundamentalist, why is it wrong to think the same if the person in question is a Rromani? If that is how we operate, then the accusations of us persecuting people for their beliefs are right b/c then we aren't disagreeing with them because of their ideas, their lifestyle, their morals or values -- we are disagreeing with them because they are Christian protestant evangelical fundamentalists who hold those ideas, lifestyles, morals and values.

Agreed. No one wore kid gloves because Kristina was 'gracious' enough to come here, or Rebecca or any other fundie who comes & defends or explains their choices - the very choices that are kind of the reason behind this board in the first place. If an idea or view or way of life is seen as dangerous in the land of the fundies, it's dangerous in all other lands, too.

[Kathryn31]

I actually equated the "unclean food" thing to Orthodox Judaism. I would never assume that I could cook for them in my own home and they would be ok with it. They have certain beliefs about food and that is fine with me. No offense taken.

Most people asked very interesting and good questions. I had also heard the "bigger the man, better the cook" in other cultures as well.

She is probably considered a total rebel by most Roma standards with her working, sending her daughter to college, divorcing, etc.

I just hate to see her go as I am sure most here do as well.