Gypsy Wedding

[hermione1975]

Mami, Thanks for answering.

Schizophrenia is an horrible disease. Both my sister and sister in law have it.

My sister has been married for 20 years and her husband has stuck by her all this time. You have my utmost respect.

[Angri-la]

Thank you, Mami Bear. I do hope you will stick around. We may not all agree with your culture's treatment of women, but, I am fascinated by your world, and would like to hear from you first hand, rather than watch heavily edited "reality" shows.

Well, ok, I am still going to watch, because the light up dresses and glass carriages are just too much fun to look at.

[fundiefan]

I watched it all on Youtube a few months ago. I came away from it grateful, just as I come away from the extreme fundies. Grateful for being born and raised in the family, culture and society I was. Without comparing to others, my family is really freaking dysfunctional and it has and continues to have an affect on my life and who I am. But, in the end, it is my life and I make the choices. When compared to others, though, I will forever consider myself to have lucked out in the way of life department.

[duplessis3]

long post got eaten, que sera sera.

Anyway, the emphasis on "racial" or "cultural" purity, (which Mamabear mentioned and of course the show does too) is disturbing because it leads to fear and mistrust of outsiders. It reminds me of the doctrinal purity of the fundies where a girl can't marry a guy that the father has approved not only on character but on religious beliefs.

[AugustPenguin]

I realize that all gypsy weddings are not alike but maybe you can answer this, if there is no guest list, how do you prepare for a reception? How do you know how many tables to set up, how big of a location and how much food to serve? If this isn't applicable to your wedding, let me know :-)

[Marchpane]

Reading your posts really took me back, mamibear. Many years ago,I used to work in a school, which had many "semi-settled" Romany families living in the catchment area. Some of their children were in school for the whole year, some for part. One of my favourite memories is of being told the story of a pilgrimage to Sainte-Maries-de-la-Mer, in France. I can still see the face of the young girl, intently explaining to me all about Saint Sara. She was generally quite self-contained and quiet, so her animation on this subject was both a surprise and a treat for me. She would be about forty now, which makes me feel really old!

[fundiefan]

I realize that all gypsy weddings are not alike but maybe you can answer this, if there is no guest list, how do you prepare for a reception? How do you know how many tables to set up, how big of a location and how much food to serve? If this isn't applicable to your wedding, let me know :-)

This made me think of the fact that so many of the weddings on Gypsy Wedding didn't want the venue to know they were Gypsies. It was suggested that it is because they are rowdy or something, but I'd be willing to bet that that has something to do with venues not wanting to host their weddings. Headcount is for all the things you mentioned, and also for staff. If you don't know how many people will be there, how do you know how many people to schedule for that event? Over schedule, and you're paying people to do nothing. Under schedule and your employees are frenzied and the guests get a low level of service. Food is prepared in advance as much as possible for large events - you can't just call in someone who wasn't scheduled and put them to work making more food - it takes too long. The number of staff needed, and their wages, is a large portion of quoting and budgeting. It has to be nearly impossible to plan for an event with an unknown number of people in every logistical and business way.

[Mami Bear]

Hello again everyone!

It is really interesting to read all the comments here. It's made me think more about our culture than I have done for quite a while. When Gypsy Weddings was aired here, hubs and I initially felt quite upset at the way we seemed to be all defined by the small group of people who were willing to share their lives with the world, but as time went by, we found that actually, it has opened up an interest which before, didn't really seem to exist, not to us at least. Hubs (who dislikes sharing any personal information about himself at all in general) even was happy enough, as a result of the show, to write a piece about his life growing up in a trailer, for the newsletter for the day centre he attends. So it's been quite positive as a whole.

Hermione, yes, life has been quite tough having to live with hubs's illness. It is always nice to know that we are not alone in this and that there are other people out there going through the same thing, and surviving! We try not to talk about it much but obviously you have to accept it is there, as it influences so much of how we live our lives. I can remember one of hubby's brothers saying to me on our wedding day "you do know what you are taking on, don't you?" and though I thought I did, of course, I didn't. I have learned that love is never enough when you are dealing with something like this. One of the issues we felt the TV show could have highlighted, is our culture's attitude and approach to illness. Because we are so private, and suspicious of the Gawdja people, we tend to avoid seeing drabamengri (doctors) unless it is absolutely unavoidable, preferring instead to try to deal with illness within our own community and family. Years ago this meant that even serious things like broken limbs and childbirth, were dealt with without any trained medical support. My mams walks with a limp, due to a broken ankle she had as a baby, which was never treated by a doctor. It was only when she developed severe arthritis as an older woman, that it was picked up on an x-ray. We're a bit more open minded nowadays, but it still means that, as in the case of my husband, illnesses often aren't dealt with until the stage where it is impossible not to see a doctor. And even then we are still very mistrustful. Things are a lot better for hubs since he accepted he does have to take medication, but for us, the side effects of the meds, are almost as bad as the illness itself.

Valsa, no offence taken! In our culture, women are seen as the possession of their husband, but this isn't necessarily as negative as some people might think. Imagine something that you have, which you value greatly. A piece of jewellery perhaps, or something of great sentimental value. Don't you really cherish that item, treasure it, protect it jealously, and feel proud and fond of it, and get joy from every time you look at it or handle it? That's how our husbands treat us. Like precious gifts. I feel that my husband really cherishes me, and feel very much adored, even tho, as a result of his illness, he doesn't often actually come out and tell me! It is more through gesture with him.

There's a big thing about shame in our culture, which the man/woman issues do reflect. For example, if a man's trailer isn't clean, or his wife is seen to disrespect him, this reflects badly on him, rather than on her, and it is up to her to address these things, out of her respect to him as her husband. It is considered part of our role and duty, to ensure we don't bring shame on our husbands as a result of our behaviour or poor housekeeping. If a wife is unfaithful, it brings huge shame on the whole family. I realise these values are obviously very contentious in today's society. Nowadays tho, they are very much more relaxed than they use to be. Just about the only thing that my family see as important, is making sure you can cook! It always makes me smile when my brothers in law compliment me on my cooking. They tell me "you are keeping our boy well". This always makes me feel that they must think I'm fattening up a prize pig, not feeding a husband! He he. It's common to refer to the youngest brother as "the boy", even when he's grown up, and its also used quite often as a Christian name. We have lots of names, 4 Christian names apiece, usually a family name which every child has, along with other names that, as with any other family, have a special significance. It use to be the case that a special private name was also given to children but this doesn't happen in our family.

Well catering at weddings ... our own wedding was very small, because hubs dislikes any kind of noisy, crowded situation (which means we have a very limited social life) and after the ceremony we just went to the pub. In our family, whilse it is true that there are no invites to the actual ceremony (and this is the case not just for weddings, but baptisms and funerals also, at our granda's funeral the people lined the streets, there were so many turned up to pay their respects) but for the party afterwards, there is a kind of unspoken understanding that only invited (usually verbally rather than by a card) people will attend. Added to this, is the fact that our family certainly, tend not to hire venues but use privately owned locations, as we're all from farming/horse breeding backgrounds, so we do have family who own large plots of land where parties can be held, but even if we did hire a venue, there is a definite rule that, as with church potlucks, the people going, bring their own food and drink, and often we have our own entertainment as well. This cuts down a lot of the problems with not knowing how many will be there. I don't know how it is with other families. The wedding my hubs and I met at, was at a public venue, but it was not a sit down party but a buffet and everyone did indeed bring their own food. I think the weddings shown on the TV show, were much more organised than this, in fact I seem to remember that one of them even had their own wedding planner. This isn't in the tradition of our family at all, it's a much more homespun affair, which we all prefer.

Hope that answers a few things!

Love, Mami Bear xxxxxx

[valsa]

Valsa, no offence taken! In our culture, women are seen as the possession of their husband, but this isn't necessarily as negative as some people might think. Imagine something that you have, which you value greatly. A piece of jewellery perhaps, or something of great sentimental value. Don't you really cherish that item, treasure it, protect it jealously, and feel proud and fond of it, and get joy from every time you look at it or handle it? That's how our husbands treat us. Like precious gifts. I feel that my husband really cherishes me, and feel very much adored, even tho, as a result of his illness, he doesn't often actually come out and tell me! It is more through gesture with him.

Cultural or not, it's never appropriate to refer to people the same way you would an object. You are a person. No one owns you. The fact you are okay with being treated as an object (valued or not) is just very, very sad.

[themadapple]

I'm with Valsa here. I feel that being cherished as a possession is much different than being cherished as a human and a partner in a relationship. An object, no matter how cherished, will take abuse without question and does not have a voice, emotions or preference.

I certainly do not think you are an object, Mami Bear. Still, I understand that you will see it differently. Either way, I'm very happy you've come to share a bit of your life and perspective with us. For all the snark here, what a neat education this Free Jinger and other boards like this can afford!

[valsa]

An object, no matter how cherished, will take abuse without question and does not have a voice, emotions or preference.

Exactly. An object cannot say "no", an object cannot leave or demand better treatment if abused, an object cannot put its foot down regarding boundaries, an object has no say in decisions, an object has no rights that must be respected, an object does not have opinions that need to be heard... the list goes on.

[Soldier of the One]

This is such a great thread! I watched the 'My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding' series also, and also the series that Burris recommended on Youtube, 'The Truth about Travellers'. The second is far more nuanced than the first.

I am really glad Mama Bear came to pitch in and share her perspective in such a civilized manner. We can all agree to disagree, right? And learn from each other's perspectives :)

[debrand]

Hello, MamaBear, Could you leave spaces between your paragraphs? Now that I am older, the print on the computer is sometimes difficult for me to read. I loose my place when the text is close together.

Are traditions changing among young Gypsy people?

[Mami Bear]

Hi again.

Oops sorry Debrand, and other readers young and old!

Apart from very infrequently on STC I have not ever posted on a message board so I am conscious my posting format isn't quite right when I see everyone else's posts. I also need to know how to do what everyone else does where you have the part of someone else's post that you are commenting on, on your post so people can see what you're responding to. But I haven't worked that out yet. Please do "bear" with me ... I am a total newbie at this!

Hopefully I am easier to read now tho. Apologies to everyone who's had to struggle through my swathes of tiny text.

I realise my way of life, and particularly my marriage, must seem almost impossible to countenance for a lot of people. Perhaps it is easier for me because I've been born into this. Unlike for example (I am thinking of a recent previous post) Michele Duggar, I didn't choose this way of life as an adult. It's all I've ever known. You can't "become" a Gypsy, you're born one. Of course this doesn't necessarily make it OK though. It's OK if like me, you've gone into your marriage willingly and happily (and as a result, I have a really wonderful relationship with my husband, ill tho he is) but it wouldn't be OK, I don't think, if someone were to marry into a relationship like mine without being fully informed about what it's going to mean and then found themselves very unhappy as a result.

In that sense Debrand, to answer your question, yes I think things are changing, and this is good, but also scary. We don't want our traditions to die out, because it will mean our cultural identity is lost. But on the other hand, we do need to ensure that future generations are educated (be that formally or otherwise) so that they're able to make proper choices about their lives, and also be empowered, in a society where they are a very definite minority. Even if at the end of the day, they still choose to follow the old ways.

Like the Amish, I don't think we'll ever be hugely progressive, because our traditions are so deeply ingrained in our culture. But we do need to move with the times also, and I think the younger generations are going to be the ones who do this. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen. One of the main things that's happening now, which certainly wasn't the case for our parents' generation, is that people are having "mixed" marriages and marrying out of the culture, as my sister has. They're still mostly frowned on, but I think that will be one way in which things really do change in the future, and it will become much more acceptable.

That said, I wouldn't like to think that in future generations, no one wanted to have a marriage like mine, because truely, really honestly, I am very happy indeed, and very fulfilled. I asked my husband what he thought of all this, and he was a bit puzzled. He could not understand why anyone would have a problem with the way our roles are defined in our marriage, since we are both very happy and contented. But I do accept that it isn't for everyone. And by everyone, I realise that this may also mean for future generations of Rromani women too.

As Soldier said, I too think this is an area where we need to agree to disagree. It's why we need places like FJ, so that difficult issues can be raised, questions asked and answers given, and then people can be fully informed. In a forum like this, where people are respectful of each other's differences, then real progress can be made. We'll never all agree on everything, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. This debate has certainly got me thinking, a lot, in a way I maybe haven't before now.

I know I'm in a small minority here, but I'm happy with that, I knew that in speaking up, I might get responses that made me feel uncomfortable, because they challenged what I've always accepted and felt happy with. But I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just show an alternative perspective.

I understand that not everyone would, or should feel happy with my way of doing things. It's just one way, and for us, it works great. But to quote my mams, there are a million ways to say "I love you". I just settled for the one I knew best.

Love, Mami Bear xxxx

[nuri]

I've said before that one of my good friends is Roma -- and she struggles with some of the same ideas. For her, it's personal identity versus group identity. Her mother tried to do everything she could to hide being Roma, but she still got discriminated against (this is in the liberal areas of the Western US), as she grew up, she was in more contact with her aunts and grandmother and joined her Roma community.

As an adult, she's going up against some of the group morality. She's discovered she's bi, she's poly, things like that. And she's trying to find her place, but doesn't want to give up being in her community. As she puts it, the Roma are a closed culture, she hates the appropriation that goes on, the discrimination, but she also finds she can't be herself within that closed community. She's one of those that will bring the progression, but it's hard on her.

(she's also used the term, I belong to my husband. I use it too. I don't think either of us see ourselves as objects. She certainty doesn't. My goodness, she doesn't act like our simpering fundies either.)

[treemom]

I have decided TLC just likes to be insane and crazy with their reality shows. The coupon one, this one, the duggars, toddlers and tiaras.

They emphasize the extreme of any culture.

[hermione1975]

I am a total newbie at this

No worries. So were we once. :character-count:

(smile icon for no other reason then I like The Count)

I have decided TLC just likes to be insane and crazy with their reality shows. The coupon one, this one, the duggars, toddlers and tiaras.

They emphasize the extreme of any culture.

Agreed. I remember a Time when the "L" in TLC actually meant "Learning". They have turned it into a circus freak show. I guess they have to go where the ratings take them.

[bananacat]

For anyone who thinks that being a cherished possession is a good thing, I highly recommend watching the episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, where Data is captured and put into a private collection, sort of like a zoo animal. He got everything he desired, but he was still unsatisfied being someone else's possession.

[ladypuglover]

For anyone who thinks that being a cherished possession is a good thing, I highly recommend watching the episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, where Data is captured and put into a private collection, sort of like a zoo animal. He got everything he desired, but he was still unsatisfied being someone else's possession.

My favorite epi was when Data went back into time and met Guinan for the first time. It was a 2 parter, but very cool to my history loving heart.

[Alecto]

I think if an adult wants to knowingly go into a relationship like that, who I am I to judge? To me it's not much different than living in a full time D/s relationship.

[xReems]

Well, looks like one of the girls from that show filed for divorce and has a child! The 22 year old girl, Joan, the one who had serious doubts, apparently filed for divorce last year and, at that time, was 8 months pregnant.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1325602/Joan-Furey-files-divorce-year-marriage-8-months-pregnant.html

[valsa]

I think if an adult wants to knowingly go into a relationship like that, who I am I to judge? To me it's not much different than living in a full time D/s relationship.

Personally, I'm not very fond of full time D/s relationships either but there's a HUGE difference between the two. D/s relationships work on the principle that the sub submits because they're, well, a sub. That's their thing. There's a direct relation between them being a sub and them subbing and they require no other characteristics other than being a sub (for instance, a sub can be a woman or a man)

However, crap like wifely submission and being "owned" by your husband work on the principle that there's a direct relationship between being a wife/having a husband/being a woman and being submissive/being owned. Which is a bunch of shit. I'd have no problem with them saying "I'm a sub, so I submit" or "I'm a slave, so my owner owns me" but that's not what they say. Instead, they say stupid crap like “I’m a wife who submits to her husband†and “My husband owns me†as if being a wife or having a husband is related at all to them being an idiot who has so little self-esteem that they can’t even manage to handle full personhood.

[Kelya]

I think if an adult wants to knowingly go into a relationship like that, who I am I to judge? To me it's not much different than living in a full time D/s relationship.

But a huge part of a D/S relationship is choice, choosing to live that way and also having the option of choosing when to end the relationship. I don't think these women have much choice, it seems to be either follow these traditions or gtfo and oh, you're bringing us shame.

Not directly connected, but I'm reminded of Rumpspringa. I used to think it was an awesome idea, but now I see it as more of a scare tactic: they let their children run wild in a world they have purposely not prepared them for, with little education or resources to make positive decisions or actually experience "English" life.

[Flipsnippy]

I'm not surprised that's Joan's marriage isn't working out. Her episode really bothered me for some reason.

[LIzzieB]

Hi Mami Bear - just wanted to say thankyou for posting! It's really fascinating to hear more about the Romani and the diversity in the various Gypsy/Traveller communities from an insider.

I recently read "The Stone Cradle" by Louise Doughty which is about three generations of a Gypsy family in Cambridgeshire, from a traditional lifestyle, to transitioning to a settled life and then through to the offspring who'd only known a settled life. It was a great insight into the culture, and much was based on the author's own family. I would recommend it.