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FoxyMoxie

Switching sides - ATIers going Reformed, or vice versa?

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FoxyMoxie

Thinking about Benessa and baby Spurgeon Seewald got me thinking - if Vision Forum were still around, I could see them trying to get in with that crowd (although I know the crowd is still around, if fractured) although I feel like VF would look down on them as 'nouveau riche'. I certainly think the Seewalds Jr are heading Reformedwards. Are there any other ATIers/non-Reformed types heading that way, or vice versa? I guess Lina going Catholic was a pretty big switcheroo.

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DomWackTroll

Yeah, I was really surprised when I found out about them naming him "Spurgeon." It reminds me of a non-WASP couple trying to put on airs by naming their baby something supposedly upper class like "Hunter" or "Forrest." They don't seem to understand that VF was just using Michelle for temporary PR purposes and that they would never be accepted as friends by people like the Browns and the Botkins. No way. 

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Anonymousguest

I don't understand. I know many reformed gothardites.

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punkiepie

IAre Ben Seewald's family  Reformed Baptist... calvinist Baptists?  Ben's father refers to Kevin Smead in his blog.  http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Kevin%5ESmead and it seems to be reformed Baptist.

 

 

 

ben has been spouting the Calvinist way of thinking since before he and Jessa got engaged.  They were always VFers, always reformed.  They big thing is that Jessa now seems to be going Reformed as well- which is the opposite of ATI/IBLP/Gothard. 

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salex

Wouldn't she be expected to worship as her head ship decides?  If er dad picked him i guess it is ok with him.

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Arete

I've always wanted JB on the hot seat to explain how he allowed one of his arrows to marry a Calvinist.  You really cannot come up with a middle ground between Gothardism and Calvinism.  Everyone has the ability to be saved in Gothard's brand of Christianity (and most other types as well, to be honest).  Not so in Calvinism.  God decides from before a human being is even born whether they are saved or damned, and nothing they can do in life will change that status.

 

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lilith

Jessa and Ben claim they spent their courtship discussing theology, but I really doubt Jessa has a deep enough understanding of the religion she wants everyone in the world to live their life in conformity to for it to have mattered. I don't see JimBob as a deep theological thinker either - Ben was a relatively camera friendly, homeschooled, baptist white boy who JimBob could control - I'm pretty sure they are all the qualities necessary to marry a Duggar daughter.

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onlyme

Reformed look down on Gothardites as being loose theologically and legalistic in all the wrong places-that is, they won't let you drink scotch, smoke cigars or read Harry Potter. And Gothardites (at least in my experience) look down on Reformed because they drink, smoke and read Harry Potter. 

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punkiepie

I don't think, or highly doubt, that Gothardites spend any time at all teaching or learning how to theologically debate the 5 points of Calvinism Whereas, all Calvinist learn to debate Arminians from a young age- they know their 5 points and how to defend them.

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Jasmar

From one hopeless form of religion to another...

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ladidah

I don't understand. I know many reformed gothardites.

This. Because ATI/Gothardism isn't a church, its adherents attend churches in many theological traditions. Most of the Gothardites I've known have been Reformed. They just add Gothardite tenets like Quiverfull and homeschooling-only theology to the more mainstream theology they get from their home churches.

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FoxyMoxie

Am I right in thinking IBLP = not Reformed rather than ATI then? But in any case, the Duggars are not Reformed - although I doubt the Duggars really think about theology.

Bin has the perfect neo-Calvinist douchelord attitude, if not the 'old money' attitude.

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Meh
Coconut Flan

IBLP and ATI have the same belief system and both were begun by Bill Gothard.  ATI is merely the homeschooling division of IBLP.

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bubblekitty

From one hopeless form of religion to another...

Yep. And it's not uncommon for families to migrate from one cultic xtian group to another.

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halcionne

This. Because ATI/Gothardism isn't a church, its adherents attend churches in many theological traditions. Most of the Gothardites I've known have been Reformed. They just add Gothardite tenets like Quiverfull and homeschooling-only theology to the more mainstream theology they get from their home churches.

But IBLP/ATI sells a particular product, with a particular doctrine. Do you or @Anonymousguest know any reformed families that consume IBLP/ATI products? I would be very interested to read about how a family reconciled the apparent doctrinal conflicts.

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ladidah

Do you or @Anonymousguest know any reformed families that consume IBLP/ATI products?

Yes. In my experience, they add ATI-derived beliefs to their churches' doctrines. For example, some ATI and ex-ATI folks I know are more strict about divorce and remarriage than their Reformed churches, in keeping with ATI teachings. That works just fine, because Reformed churches generally try to convince members of the correctness of all of their teachings, but one doesn't actually have to adhere to every doctrinal point in order to become a church member. You can hold ATI doctrines that are in conflict with Reformed ones and still be a member in good standing of most Reformed churches. (That may be different in denominations like the CREC, which seems to expect to exert more complete control over members' beliefs, but I'm guessing here.)

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Othello

ATI/IBLP is very heavily arminian, but they do produce a lot of materials that reformed ultraconservatives use. However, the doctrine is less important than the dogma of ultraconservatism which both parties swear by, so people who are looking for affirmation in being self-righteous often slip from one to the other with ease because while the doctrinal tenets are at odds the practical function is essentially the same. My parents segued from an ATI/IBLP 'home church' to a reformed church with little grumbling.

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Anonymousguest

I attend a reformed family integrated church. (Not associated with Scott Brown, so much so our council has been trying to call us something other than FIC so we aren't connected in people's minds) There are several ATI families. Despite what some believe and have expressed in this thread, the actual reformed tenets don't come up that often.  I am not sure I could even list the 5 points,  much less have my children argue them ;) .  I have never heard anyone discuss how reformed theology conflicts with Gothard's. Actually,  rarely do I ever hear anyone speak about Gothard. I recognize key words occasionally,  but no one ever says "bill Gothard believes. .." 

Just for interest, none of the ATI families in our church are anything like the Duggars. None are dresses only,  both girls and boys went to college, like state universities. One woman is getting her masters in nursing now,  living at home with her family who is still using ATI material for the younger kids. 

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FormerlyFundyLite

One of my friends (Calvinist--or at last she was at the time) and her husband attended a reformed church for a while. They finally left because of some ATI-ish legalism (her pastor's wife gave her a huge lecture about how she must expect first-time obedience from her two-year-old son, and to spank him if he didn't obey cheerfully the first time, among other things).

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EmiGirl

According to my husband being reformed is more that you subscribe to the 5 "solas". Has nothing to do with calvinism.

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onlyme

Not to disagree with your husband, but I think the 5 solas are more a definition of being Protestant. A Southern Baptist would agree with the 5 solas but aren't Reformed.  

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Meh
Coconut Flan

Five solas aren't really all protestants but more evangelicals and especially Baptists and related groups. 

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Othello

The Five Solae, while used at least in a fragmented fashion during the Reformation (they weren't compiled as a list of 5 until more recently), do not equal the Five Points of Calvinism. Very different! ;)  The Solae are differentiation from Catholicism—Sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus and soli Deo gloria. The 5 Points, or TULIP, are tenets of Calvinism's exclusivity—Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints.

@Anonymousguest - glad to hear that these families are much more relaxed! Certainly not within the traditional fold of ATI. Bill Gothard has had some... issues in the past couple of years, so I imagine he's not often discussed; but it is good to hear they aren't hanging on his every word like many.

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Tired
Iamhispurity

5 Solas are originally lutheran, but reformed too. They originate from Lutheranism. (Even though there were only three at first (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia)

Things that set apart reformed Christians are: Belief in communion as a  memorial (in Catholicism there is really Christs body and blood/ in Lutheranism Christ ist there, but it is not really his body and blood), no pictures in the church or any anything on the Altar, the Old Testament is way more important for Reformed than for Lutherans. Also being reformed normally (not always!) means believing into some sort of predestination. Another important point is covenant theology (God makes different covenants with human kind, one is through Jesus).

 

I am reformed, any more questions?

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