Bill Gothard spewing fresh bullshit wtf

[nastyhobbitses]

Bill Gothard is such a bad writer. I can't believe he managed to get degrees from reputable colleges with such poor writing skills (maybe he hired a typist and an editor back in the day to help him out?). It's no wonder that the Duggars and the other families under his thrall produce such inarticulate kidults if Gothard is their role model.

If he took a lot of P/F classes and wrote "just good enough" papers and exams, he probably would have been able to squeak by. I used to help friends proofread their writing assignments in college (and I'm looking for some freelance proofreading work in grad school), and let's just say that quite a few people were not terribly great writers. But they still managed to get OK grades and graduate on time. I wish curriculum focused more on the principles of good writing early on in school.

[foreign fundie]

@‌grandmaduggar said 

 

 

Goodness me.   The two of you sound very smug. 

True, children have good instincts for detecting contradictions, inconsistencies and hypocrisy. I started "losing my faith" around the age of 5.  Luckily my fundie-lite  parents believed in education and did not "shelter" me from the world too much so I was able to think critically about life and religion and make up my own mind.  One of the hallmarks of cults and spiritually abusive churches (and Gothardism is a cult no doubt about it) is depriving children of education and restricting their access to other viewpoints.  A child brought up in a cult has to fight very hard against the brainwashing to get out.

When thinking about adults falling for this sort of thing,  I've always thought that authoritarian personalities and black and white thinkers are attracted to these sort of churches and beliefs.  Spiritually abusive church leaders and cults also prey on people when they are vulnerable and at times of crisis.  They pull people in with promises of eternal answers, love, safety, acceptance and true community.   It is only when people see the clay feet of the cult leader that the true nature of the organization shows itself. 

You might want to do more reading about spiritually abusive churches and cults to understand how even highly intelligent and "discerning" people are vulnerable to them.  Julie Anne at the Spiritual Sounding board has some very good articles.  I highly recommend her site. http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/

 

 

 

 

 

I am not suggesting intelligent people cannot fall for cults at all, rather the opposite. The cults' theologies are often mathematical, black and white and seem to 'work'. That attracts people who long for clarity and also people that are rational. (I am leaving out the social aspect now, just focussing on the theology) Also members are usually thoroughly trained in defending their beliefs. Rationally it can all seem very convincing. That is why I advocate using intuition as a tool of decernment. I leant this the hard way myself. The group I was involved in was endorsed by all mainstream churches. The theology was solid and the very unhealthy group dynamics only became obvious much later. It took me years to leave. But looking back I blame myself for not knowing. Everything that was said sounded good. But from what was unspoken I knew from the start deep down in my heart it was not right. I just rationalized it away.

[Palimpsest]

I am not suggesting intelligent people cannot fall for cults at all, rather the opposite. The cults' theologies are often mathematical, black and white and seem to 'work'. That attracts people who long for clarity and also people that are rational. (I am leaving out the social aspect now, just focussing on the theology) Also members are usually thoroughly trained in defending their beliefs. Rationally it can all seem very convincing. That is why I advocate using intuition as a tool of decernment. I leant this the hard way myself. The group I was involved in was endorsed by all mainstream churches. The theology was solid and the very unhealthy group dynamics only became obvious much later. It took me years to leave. But looking back I blame myself for not knowing. Everything that was said sounded good. But from what was unspoken I knew from the start deep down in my heart it was not right. I just rationalized it away.

Thank you for clarifying.  I agree.

[apple1]

(clipped)   It is only when people see the clay feet of the cult leader that the true nature of the organization shows itself. 

You might want to do more reading about spiritually abusive churches and cults to understand how even highly intelligent and "discerning" people are vulnerable to them.  Julie Anne at the Spiritual Sounding board has some very good articles.  I highly recommend her site. http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/

(See my little story posted earlier in this thread). Keep in mind that one of the hallmarks of Gothardism has been disguising and hiding, until people are deeply committed; this was definitely the case. The name Gothard was NOT used. Also keep in mind that most church-goers have been raised to deeply respect the pastor, and many of us (even afterwards) really try to see the best in people. There are a gazillion shades of gray - not black and white. Knowing when or where a line is crossed is not always simple.

And sometimes after getting out of it, there is a lot of grieving. More for the loss of the ability to trust, I think.

[foreign fundie]

(See my little story posted earlier in this thread). Keep in mind that one of the hallmarks of Gothardism has been disguising and hiding, until people are deeply committed; this was definitely the case. The name Gothard was NOT used. Also keep in mind that most church-goers have been raised to deeply respect the pastor, and many of us (even afterwards) really try to see the best in people. There are a gazillion shades of gray - not black and white. Knowing when or where a line is crossed is not always simple.

And sometimes after getting out of it, there is a lot of grieving. More for the loss of the ability to trust, I think.

Agree. It is not in the Christian DNA to expect the worst in people, even though theologically speaking we believe people are sinful. The number of times I have heard things like 'no body is perfect', 'one should not judge', 'we should forgive each other' as justification to keep all kinds of creeps on the payroll makes me sick.

[Palimpsest]

I'm sure that I agree with ‌@apple1 and  I think I see where ‌@foreign fundie is coming from and agree with him/her too.

I have to ask, though:  What the dickens is "Christian DNA?" 

[Mercer]

3. If the message was so great, he would lose no time in telling us it's contents instead of telling us only about all the great people who like him.

This. It's clearly all very cynical on his part - if he actually believed he'd found some sort of life-changing truth that could affect the whole world for the better, surely he would want to share it with as many people as possible. Something like that, you would shout to the rooftops! But no, you have to attend the seminar. It's a sales pitch, nothing more or less.

[grandmadugger]

How on earth did I come off smug?  Don't most of us wonder how people fall for this shit?

[CyborgKin]

I have to ask, though:  What the dickens is "Christian DNA?" 

Here, DNA is used metaphorically.

Looking up the alternate definition for DNA yields the following:

the fundamental and distinctive characteristics or qualities of someone or something, especially when regarded as unchangeable.

"diversity is part of the company's DNA"

[salex]

I think people believe what we see as obvious nonsense because they want to.  It may be a variation of confirmation bias, it may be that the husbands want an outside source to "prove" their power in the family/over their wives (think of all the "respect him even if he doesn't deserve it" BS) and people want a formula that assures them they will be heaven bound, successful and their kids will turn out ok. 

 

I also think some people really want step by step instructions on how to live and any one who offers them that will get followers. 

[apple1]

Also, there is a continuum in the extent to which people are involved in the nonsense.

Even those on the periphery of this man's influence (again, I reference my own story) may have been harmed. It's not a black and white, all or nothing thing. Also - as other FJers' personal history tells - some were either born into an ATI family, or their parents got involved in it while they were still dependent minors, and had no choice.

An attitude of "I have always been discerning, I could never have been caught up in something like that" ignores all the nuances and all the various circumstances that could apply.

[formergothardite]

Gothard appeals to people who are in a bad situation and looking for an answer or people who like to have total control over others. It is very easy for people to get sucked in. Plus all this info we have now wasn't available back when he started. New converts only saw the fairly normal stuff and happy, successful families. The stuff he taught to draw people in really wasn't that far off from fundamental Christian teachings, so it wasn't a far leap to go from being a Baptist to also joining ATI. 

[Palimpsest]

Here, DNA is used metaphorically.

Looking up the alternate definition for DNA yields the following:

the fundamental and distinctive characteristics or qualities of someone or something, especially when regarded as unchangeable.

"diversity is part of the company's DNA"

Yes, I know.  That almost makes it worse.

"It is not in the Christian DNA to expect the worst in people [even though they are sinful]" means that in order to be "Christian" you must be eternally optimistic and deny the evidence before your eyes.  Well, that is very nice.

It's not often something I've seen often even in mainstream Christianity.  In Christian fundamentalism, which specializes in judging all non-Christians and not-the-right-kind-of Christians and condemning them to hell, I can't say they don't expect the worst of people.  It also seems to contradict the "live separated from the world" common Fundie value.  Because the world and people in it are so terrible.

Oh, well. MMV.

[Gimme a Free RV]

I have well-educated, dear friends--a retired minister and his wife--who attended a Gothard seminar decades ago.  She still thinks his teachings are spot-on.  I cannot talk to her about this because I know we'd butt heads.  They really bought into it, hook, line, and "stinker."

[foreign fundie]

Yes, I know.  That almost makes it worse.

"It is not in the Christian DNA to expect the worst in people [even though they are sinful]" means that in order to be "Christian" you must be eternally optimistic and deny the evidence before your eyes.  Well, that is very nice.

It's not often something I've seen often even in mainstream Christianity.  In Christian fundamentalism, which specializes in judging all non-Christians and not-the-right-kind-of Christians and condemning them to hell, I can't say they don't expect the worst of people.  It also seems to contradict the "live separated from the world" common Fundie value.  Because the world and people in it are so terrible.

Oh, well. MMV.

I see where you are coing from, and that is the pardox. Christians my be prone to judge others and overinflate the wickedness of the world. There is a basis for that in theology, in that Christians believe all is tainted by sin. Calvinists even believe in total deprevity. So that adds up. 

What does not add up to me, if when a Christian leader fails morally, spreads heresy, or is an unbelievable asshole, suddenly this judgement is no where to be found among his followers or superiors. Thus I said that in the Christian DNA there is a strong tendency (speaking here from multiple experiences in different groups) to excuse leaders when they do wrong, to not let them have the consequences of his actions, and even disbelieve a leader can be capable of such wrong. In spite of the 'sin' theology. Thank you for making me clarify my thoughts.

[Whoosh]

I again just get the heebie jeebies (as an aside, I have heard this is not a non-pc phrase - what do y'all think?) to talk about what Christians believe or don't believe.  Speaking of Christian DNA doesn't sit well for me because of that I imagine.  My church didn't talk much about sin or hell.  There was no belief in inherent evil.  In fact, my church taught that humans are inherently good because God made us good.  Sin was seen as choices made of free will that lead us further from God rather than closer to him.  This line of thinking isn't any kind of "new Christianity" or anything, as my church and the core beliefs date way, way back.  

I guess I might be saying that it isn't in the Episcopalian DNA to make broad sweeping statements about what Christianity is - but then again, maybe some do. 

[foreign fundie]

I again just get the heebie jeebies (as an aside, I have heard this is not a non-pc phrase - what do y'all think?) to talk about what Christians believe or don't believe.  Speaking of Christian DNA doesn't sit well for me because of that I imagine.  My church didn't talk much about sin or hell.  There was no belief in inherent evil.  In fact, my church taught that humans are inherently good because God made us good.  Sin was seen as choices made of free will that lead us further from God rather than closer to him.  This line of thinking isn't any kind of "new Christianity" or anything, as my church and the core beliefs date way, way back.  

I guess I might be saying that it isn't in the Episcopalian DNA to make broad sweeping statements about what Christianity is. 

Do you realise you are contradicting your previous post?

Ayway my point was not that all Christians are the same, but that in my experience there is an issue in many different Chrstian churches/ groups/ organisations with properly dealing with failing leaders. I hope your experience is different.

[Whoosh]

Do you realise you are contradicting your previous post?

Ayway my point was not that all Christians are the same, but that in my experience there is an issue in many different Chrstian churches/ groups/ organisations with properly dealing with failing leaders. I hope your experience is different.

I am sorry - I am not sure what post of mine you think I am contradicting.  Anyway, if I have misspoken somewhere, I apologize.  I wholeheartedly would agree that not all Christians view things the same.  It does give me the heebie jeebies when people speak "for Christians".  I can't imagine that I said something that contradicts that or the teachings of my church, but who knows I guess.

[salex]

RE Heebie Jeebies

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/heebie-jeebies.html

 

And Snopes message board, if you accept snopes

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000942;p=1

[formergothardite]

I've been around a good many Christians most of my life and I never got a "Christian DNA" vibe.  I've been in some churches where the leaders got judged on any tiny thing and other churches where the leaders could get away with all sorts of stuff. 

If there is a "Christian DNA", it would be that lots of Christians can't agree on lots of things. 

[Palimpsest]

I've been around a good many Christians most of my life and I never got a "Christian DNA" vibe.  I've been in some churches where the leaders got judged on any tiny thing and other churches where the leaders could get away with all sorts of stuff. 

If there is a "Christian DNA", it would be that lots of Christians can't agree on lots of things. 

QFT!  And thanks for the laugh.

[lizzybee]

Has anyone seen his new web site? http://billgothard.com/ looks like he's added all those testimonials from discovering grace to it among other things. 

[iweartanktops]

Wow! Gothard is madly in love with himself! 

[Gimme a Free RV]

Wow! Gothard is madly in love with himself! 

I just hope he doesn't any desires about himself that can't be righteously fulfilled.

[iweartanktops]

I just hope he doesn't any desires about himself that can't be righteously fulfilled.