Bill Gothard spewing fresh bullshit wtf

[apple1]

Disclaimer: I have absolutely no inside information.

However: I would bet good money on nearly all of it being lies. And, dang, it sounds just exactly like BG's stuff has always sounded. Makes me angry ANGRY. The arrogance. And the dishonesty.

I guess somehow, some way, he is still successful at fooling some people.

Makes me feel physically ill.

This is exactly what I thought when i read it. It sounds like all the exact same stuff that he has been saying for years. I doubt any of it happened except in his head. 

This one made me really angry too.   Bill Gothard trying to appropriate a legitimate NGO in Ethiopia, even in vague terms, to attempt his come-back made me see red.  (clipped)

 

(repeating an old post of mine, for reference)

I (myself, husband and kids) attended a mainline Christian denomination church for 5 years in which (we didn't know at the time) the pastor had gotten involved hook, line, and sinker in Gothardism. It was all quite cleverly hidden under other language (just like Gothardism doesn't reveal the depth of their teachings, or what they really believe, until people are very deeply committed). The name Gothard was never mentioned. "Home school convention" was the most common euphemism. "Character programs" occasionally.

 

It ended for us quite painfully. Without going in to specifics, husband and I were pretty much informed that we were no longer welcome there unless we chose to toe their line (we didn't). They manipulated and hung on to my 17 and 19 year old kids for an additional 4 months or so before we got them out (the kids were essentially adults and had driver's licenses and the older one had a car), telling them how awful their parents were.

 

There was a lot of pain and family dynamic that I was very upset about at the time.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, and now we are all relieved. (It's obvious now that it was going to end that way, because none of us have the personality or belief system to buy into the spiel). It's distressing (and revealing) that this was hidden in a mainline Christian church.

 

Today, about 11 (more now-this was an old post) years later, that church still exists, but there are hardly any members except the pastor's relatives. Most of the other (and there were many, many) members are gone in manner similar to us. Only after we were out of that church, and I started researching Gothard, did I find out the extent of Gothard's teachings. (I continue to self-identify as a mainline, not fundy, Christian).

 

Adding today:

The spiel that opened this thread is the exact same language and type of spiel that the pastor referenced above used to tell the church referenced above about the miracles that Gothard's Character First program was going to accomplish across the US.

I thank God (seriously, and intentional language use, as I still self-identify as Christian, non-fundy) that the above saga was the extent of my experience with Gothardism. No IBLP/ATI, neither as a kid growing up, nor as an adult with kids of my own. No seminar attendance. Public school education and college degree from a real secular university. Yet even the saga above was not good.

 

And, yes, I am very angry that Gothard continues, unrepentant, to fool people and to harm people. ANGRY.

[grandmadugger]

@Palimpsest I can't imagine Billy coming out to a pentecostal church.  I think some of the stuff that goes down would freak him out.  Hell, some of the stuff freaks me out and I'd go to a pentecostal church over an IFB church any day.

[FloraKitty35]

What a slimeball. 

[Palimpsest]

@Palimpsest I can't imagine Billy coming out to a pentecostal church.  I think some of the stuff that goes down would freak him out.  Hell, some of the stuff freaks me out and I'd go to a pentecostal church over an IFB church any day.

I know!  When I saw the church was Pentecostal I laughed and thought we could cross Grace Church in WI of our list of suspects.  BG would run away faster than John Shrader did in Burundi.  

 

[Palimpsest]

<snipped>

Today, about 11 (more now-this was an old post) years later, that church still exists, but there are hardly any members except the pastor's relatives. Most of the other (and there were many, many) members are gone in manner similar to us. Only after we were out of that church, and I started researching Gothard, did I find out the extent of Gothard's teachings. (I continue to self-identify as a mainline, not fundy, Christian).

 

Adding today:

The spiel that opened this thread is the exact same language and type of spiel that the pastor referenced above used to tell the church referenced above about the miracles that Gothard's Character First program was going to accomplish across the US.

I thank God (seriously, and intentional language use, as I still self-identify as Christian, non-fundy) that the above saga was the extent of my experience with Gothardism. No IBLP/ATI, neither as a kid growing up, nor as an adult with kids of my own. No seminar attendance. Public school education and college degree from a real secular university. Yet even the saga above was not good.

 

And, yes, I am very angry that Gothard continues, unrepentant, to fool people and to harm people. ANGRY.

Yes, I am very sorry this happened to you.  I was just musing about how hard it must be for people to choose a new church and screen for toxic Fundie influence in advance.  It is not just Gothard either.  People are also vulnerable to the Driscolls, Wilsons, Phillipses and Sprouls too, to name only a few.  All of whom are also unrepentant as sin.

I'm wondering whether the internet helps in screening churches these days, even in the absence of a major scandal hitting the headlines.  When I first started reading FJ 10 years ago I wouldn't have recognized many of the weasel words I do today.  For example "character" would not have made my hair stand on end.  "Covenant" might have done, but not to the extent it does today.  I looked up a couple of churches in my neck of the woods recently.  It was quickly obvious to me just from their webpage that "Seeds of Faith Baptist" was IFB.  Yes, we have IFB, possibly Gothardite, missionaries in my evil liberal state.

I think Gothard's attempt at a comeback is rather pathetic, and to my relief the IBLP board is not helping him.  So far.  I'm sure the Webmaster on his facebook is kept busy editing negative comments and there are many.  He has disabled comments on the BG blog too. 

The BG ramble that started this thread sounds like fantasy - but fantasy that could be harmful to legitimate people, thus my rage at his attributing a quote to Marta.  It seriously had me wondering whether Gothard is slipping into dementia and living in a fantasy world.  I also think he is wily and calculating enough to be trying his old tricks again.  I just hope people don't fall for it.

[Gimme a Free RV]

 

I think Gothard's attempt at a comeback is rather pathetic, and to my relief the IBLP board is not helping him.  So far.  

The BG ramble that started this thread sounds like fantasy - but fantasy that could be harmful to legitimate people, thus my rage at his attributing a quote to Marta.  It seriously had me wondering whether Gothard is slipping into dementia and living in a fantasy world.  I also think he is wily and calculating enough to be trying his old tricks again.  I just hope people don't fall for it.

I think this is a very real possibility.  He is not in touch with reality and as he ages, is perhaps experiencing dementia (plus probable psychological issues that need addressing but will never be dealt with).  Christians need to trust that God will give them discernment but, apparently, the followers of Goatturd allow him to be their conscience, guide, wisdom, and discernment.  A bunch of sheep following a wolf, clothed in goat skin = a dangerous offshoot from what Christ taught.

Edited to add:  If you think about it, this is what cults have been doing for eons--taking basic, fundamental truths of a religious belief system and translating, distorting, and adding on to those beliefs to create a "better" belief system.  This is what Isis is doing.  They are not true to the earliest writings of Mohammed.  This is what David Koresh (Waco, TX), Jim Jones, Warren Jeffs, the Westboro Baptist Church, and countless others have done.  The added on and inserted their own dogma and/or theological "truths," claiming to speak for God.  For their followers, it has either messed up their lives or worse, killed them.

[Howl]

Whoo, boy, Spiritual Sounding Board (go, Julie Anne!) is covering the launch of a  pro-Bill website called "Discovering Grace". 

spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/10/30/bill-gothard-defenders-launch-website-within-days-of-civil-lawsuit-against-his-former-ministry-iblp

Sound familiar?  That's because the website for those recovering from Gothardism is called "Recovering Grace" and can be found at  recoveringgrace.org/ 

Discovering Grace [discoveringgrace.com] has a "Did He Dot It?" tab, which of course comes to the conclusion that awful people, especially awful women,  are lying about all of the bad things that Bill did because Bill says he didn't do bad things, and if he did, they misunderstood his intentions and besides, they are lying, because Bill is sooooo godly, and nobody besides those 60 women saw anything wrong.  Plus, how bad can it be when someone touches you with his foot?  Recovering Grace is just an awful website with professional editors that is just mean mean mean people who want to discredit Bill for absolutely no reason at all.  Seriously. Move along.  Nothing to see here. 

The "About Us" tab is especially interesting, since they claim they are not necessarily Bill Gothard fan bois or fan grrrrls, but it is all about forgiving Bill and seeking blessings for him, rather than holding him accountable.  

[insert pic of Face Palm Jesus here]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[apple1]

I think this is a very real possibility.  He is not in touch with reality and as he ages and is perhaps experiencing dementia (plus probable psychological issues that need addressing but will never be dealt with).  Christians need to trust that God will give them discernment but, apparently, the followers of Goatturd allow him to be their conscience, guide, wisdom, and discernment.  A bunch of sheep following a wolf, clothed in goat skin = a dangerous offshoot from what Christ taught.

There is some of this type of discussion going on over at Recovering Grace, and it seems those posters are divided in opinion. I guess I am of the opinion that he has probably always been wildly narcissistic with a large does of megalomania, all reinforced for many years by his large number of followers. I guess my thought is that, while he may currently have allowed the narcissism to suppress all bits of reality, he is still "with it" enough to be very calculating and manipulative and is attempting to just continue the same manipulation that he always used. My conclusion: Not so demented that he isn't still harming people.

Yes, I am very sorry this happened to you.  I was just musing about how hard it must be for people to choose a new church and screen for toxic Fundie influence in advance.  It is not just Gothard either.  People are also vulnerable to the Driscolls, Wilsons, Phillipses and Sprouls too, to name only a few.  All of whom are also unrepentant as sin.

I'm wondering whether the internet helps in screening churches these days, even in the absence of a major scandal hitting the headlines.  When I first started reading FJ 10 years ago I wouldn't have recognized many of the weasel words I do today.  For example "character" would not have made my hair stand on end.  "Covenant" might have done, but not to the extent it does today.  I looked up a couple of churches in my neck of the woods recently.  It was quickly obvious to me just from their webpage that "Seeds of Faith Baptist" was IFB.  Yes, we have IFB, possibly Gothardite, missionaries in my evil liberal state.

I think Gothard's attempt at a comeback is rather pathetic, and to my relief the IBLP board is not helping him.  So far.  I'm sure the Webmaster on his facebook is kept busy editing negative comments and there are many.  He has disabled comments on the BG blog too. 

The BG ramble that started this thread sounds like fantasy - but fantasy that could be harmful to legitimate people, thus my rage at his attributing a quote to Marta.  It seriously had me wondering whether Gothard is slipping into dementia and living in a fantasy world.  I also think he is wily and calculating enough to be trying his old tricks again.  I just hope people don't fall for it.

Thank you for this post. Yes, the internet helps, in the sense that it's a way to screen and eliminate certain churches from consideration. But yes, it is still a challenge to find a place to worship (for those of us who want that). Thanks again for this perceptive post.

 

The degree of my anger toward this current "thing" of Gothard's has somewhat taken me by surprise. (Again, for those of us who believe) - I do believe in an afterlife in which Gothard will give an account to God, and God will not be manipulated or fooled. I take some comfort in this thought.

[Gimme a Free RV]

The degree of my anger toward this current "thing" of Gothard's has somewhat taken me by surprise. (Again, for those of us who believe) - I do believe in an afterlife in which Gothard will give an account to God, and God will not be manipulated or fooled. I take some comfort in this thought.

I believe that, too.  Goatherd will look very, very tiny before God on that day.  All of our frustration and anger towards that blowhard will be nothing in comparison to what God has in store for him.  (I'm thinking a millstone tied to his neck...)

[foreign fundie]

Whoo, boy, Spiritual Sounding Board (go, Julie Anne!) is covering the launch of a  pro-Bill website called "Discovering Grace". 

spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/10/30/bill-gothard-defenders-launch-website-within-days-of-civil-lawsuit-against-his-former-ministry-iblp

Sound familiar?  That's because the website for those recovering from Gothardism is called "Recovering Grace" and can be found at  recoveringgrace.org/ 

Discovering Grace [discoveringgrace.com] has a "Did He Dot It?" tab, which of course comes to the conclusion that awful people, especially awful women,  are lying about all of the bad things that Bill did because Bill says he didn't do bad things, and if he did, they misunderstood his intentions and besides, they are lying, because Bill is sooooo godly, and nobody besides those 60 women saw anything wrong.  Plus, how bad can it be when someone touches you with his foot?  Recovering Grace is just an awful website with professional editors that is just mean mean mean people who want to discredit Bill for absolutely no reason at all.  Seriously. Move along.  Nothing to see here. 

The "About Us" tab is especially interesting, since they claim they are not necessarily Bill Gothard fan bois or fan grrrrls, but it is all about forgiving Bill and seeking blessings for him, rather than holding him accountable.  

[insert pic of Face Palm Jesus here]

 

 

 

 

 

 

If these fanboys are done with this website, there is another Bill with a similar problem who could use a site like that.

[Palimpsest]

I believe that, too.  Goatherd will look very, very tiny before God on that day.  All of our frustration and anger towards that blowhard will be nothing in comparison to what God has in store for him.  (I'm thinking a millstone tied to his neck...)

Well, this is one of the times I almost wish I had not resoundingly lost my faith (if I ever had it).  If I believed in an afterlife, I'd happily condemn Gothard to hell.  He deserves it.

The news about Discovering Grace is not good.  Thanks for alerting me to it.  I wonder how many people are involved.  I need to go and read Julie Anne's take on it now.

[foreign fundie]

That is one of the reasons I still believe. There must be ultimate justice. For all the women and children trapped by this idiot. And many like him. I wish him no personal harm in this life or the next. I just wish for his lies and foolishness to be openly displayed and his power to harm taken away. Mind you, he has already started to do that himself with his recent dillusional piece of writing.

[Gimme a Free RV]

Foreign Fundie, I think I love you.

[DaisyD]

Discovering grace? That's so despicable. At this point I think he owes time in several of the levels of hell. I never wish harm on others, just Karma. His karmic debt grows every day.

[sophrosyne]

It's a sales pitch and he's definitely after the money and new-found (redeemed) fame.  I just won't do for him to slip quietly into retirement.

(snip)

Sales pitch indeed.

I'm thinking that the resurfacing of Gothard as the lawsuit came to light is not Bill so much going for money and redeemed fame as proof of his godly character, high-mindedness, global service, and on. Publicly unseen and silent is an admission of guilt. The IBLP lawyers likely said, and the board likely agreed, let's get Bill out there (in an audience of friends that isn't explicitly IBLP), publicize it, and spin Bill's character and actions as suits out defense case.

[Palimpsest]

That Discovering Grace site is something else.  If you decide to go there, and I'd rather it did not get the hits, please contribute to the DoNotLink flag. 

This is some group of true believers, probably including that "Albert" guy who trolled RG until he was banned there.  It does not seem to include current board members and IBLP employees, but who knows.  There is also this self-contradictory piece of obfuscation and denial.  I've underlined some of the highlights. 

Pray tell me why, if the board saw BG as a liability, they pleaded with him to stay?  I'm beginning to think that rumor of BG filing for an injunction to stop the board selling off IBLP property may be true. If this is anywhere near the truth, he is in direct conflict with them.

The Board requested we not publish anything about them and refer instead back to the statement(s) that they put forward on the IBLP website at this would best express their actions and intentions.  We expressed that due to the many questions we continue to field on the reasons behind their actions we had to make some attempt to explain what we understood to be true.  Hopefully we can do this in a responsible and respectful way.

Bill was never asked to resign by the Board. He was not encouraged to resign.  In fact, the Board pleaded with him not to resign.  The Board wished instead to assume responsibility for the resolution of this matter and asked him to step aside until they could complete that task.  Bill felt he was best prepared to resolve the problems by personally contacting each offended individual.  There was a strong disagreement and, rather than limit his response, Bill resigned, as he understood it, temporarily.

The Board saw Bill as a public relations liability and knew they could not control him. For this reason they banned him from access to all IBLP facilities and prohibited all IBLP employees from assisting him in the steps ahead.  He was removed from all financial support.

The Board investigated the outstanding stories enough to conclude that there were no valid criminal or sexual impropriety claims against Bill. They have not accused him of such, are not looking to him to repent of that.  The matters that they sought repentance from involved harshness and insensitivity, pride and stubbornness, for example ignoring warnings to tighten up some of his protocols so as not to damage the reputation of the ministry.

For his part, Bill maintains that he has vigorously addressed each issue that has been brought to his attention as a means to bring closure. Board members have indicated that they are looking for more evidence of brokenness and repentance in Bill, and evidence of reconciliation with those offended.  Some of us have sat across from Bill on multiple occasions as he has asked us with emotion, “What else should I do?”.  We are not sure how to answer him.

Even though we may disagree with the way in which this has been handled we respect and continue to pray for the members of the Board that they may have God’s wisdom and courage to do what is right toward Bill and the families they serve. We are well aware that they are taking this very seriously.

 

[apple1]

Gag. Puke.

 

I admit I cannot even re-frame some of the language of that (the quote from "Discovering Grace" site) into reality. Typical.

Aside: I knew I hadn't seen "Albert" on RG for a long time, but I didn't realize he had been banned. Good for the RG admins.

[Palimpsest]

Gag. Puke.

 

I admit I cannot even re-frame some of the language of that (the quote from "Discovering Grace" site) into reality. Typical.

Aside: I knew I hadn't seen "Albert" on RG for a long time, but I didn't realize he had been banned. Good for the RG admins.

Yes, I'm assuming "Albert" was banned, along with others, because he definitely disappeared from RG.  He was very persistent.

As to the rest of that garbled statement - BG seems to suck out people's brain cells as he is emptying their wallets.

[Grimalkin]

All that bragging reminds me of Cabinet Man and his bull wrangling escapade, combined with a degree from Ken Alexander's school of statistical analysis.

[Cleopatra7]

Bill Gothard is such a bad writer. I can't believe he managed to get degrees from reputable colleges with such poor writing skills (maybe he hired a typist and an editor back in the day to help him out?). It's no wonder that the Duggars and the other families under his thrall produce such inarticulate kidults if Gothard is their role model.

[Columbia]

All that bragging reminds me of Cabinet Man and his bull wrangling escapade, combined with a degree from Ken Alexander's school of statistical analysis.

I just finished re-reading 1984. That silly drivel of Gothard's made me think of something Winston would fabricate as a Big Brother speech for his job.

[grandmadugger]

Before I found FJ if someone would have asked me what I identified as I would have said, "I'm a Bible believing fundamentalist Christian."  Now that I've found FJ I am now well aware of the fact that I am no more fundamentalist Christian than I am a male, 6' tall, or have a tiny little waist.  I didn't realize how liberal I truly am until I got to reading here, thank you Jesus for Jill marrying Derick or I would still be thinking I was a fundie.  Hell from what I've learned I'm not even "lite".  

That being said, I still am fascinated by the people who fall for this hook line and sinker.  I read it and instantly go "NOT FROM GOD".  I could figure this out as a small child.  I remember telling my mom "I'm not going back to that church they don't know God."  She thought I was full of it so she came the next day to VBS, I had been invited by good friends of hers, and she told me I didn't have to go back.  If I could figure it out at 8 how on God's green earth do grown people not figure it out?  There's even verses in the Bible talking about wolves in sheep's clothing.  It makes me want to beat my head against a wall.

[NurseNell]

There's no evidence that this church is in Wisconsin, but good sleuthing! I found another possible match; http://jumpriverccc.com/pastor-joey/ also nothing unusual about service on August 23.

Gothard said the church was in Wisconsin. Jump River is in Wisconsin so I'm not sure what is meant by no evidence this church is in WI. Anyway, I was in Jump River in August, just driving through on the way back home. If there's ever word where Gothard is going to be and it's as close to me as Jump River I'll be in the audience. I keep thinking I'll see him when I'm near the north woods headquarters but so far I haven't.

[foreign fundie]

Before I found FJ if someone would have asked me what I identified as I would have said, "I'm a Bible believing fundamentalist Christian."  Now that I've found FJ I am now well aware of the fact that I am no more fundamentalist Christian than I am a male, 6' tall, or have a tiny little waist.  I didn't realize how liberal I truly am until I got to reading here, thank you Jesus for Jill marrying Derick or I would still be thinking I was a fundie.  Hell from what I've learned I'm not even "lite".  

That being said, I still am fascinated by the people who fall for this hook line and sinker.  I read it and instantly go "NOT FROM GOD".  I could figure this out as a small child.  I remember telling my mom "I'm not going back to that church they don't know God."  She thought I was full of it so she came the next day to VBS, I had been invited by good friends of hers, and she told me I didn't have to go back.  If I could figure it out at 8 how on God's green earth do grown people not figure it out?  There's even verses in the Bible talking about wolves in sheep's clothing.  It makes me want to beat my head against a wall.

I think people should use their hearts more, or their intuition if you will. These fundie guys can come with rational arguments that may sound convincing or that people are unable to counter. But if they would listen to their hearts more they would know it is BS. Kids are usually good at that...

[Palimpsest]

@‌grandmaduggar said 

Before I found FJ if someone would have asked me what I identified as I would have said, "I'm a Bible believing fundamentalist Christian."  Now that I've found FJ I am now well aware of the fact that I am no more fundamentalist Christian than I am a male, 6' tall, or have a tiny little waist.  I didn't realize how liberal I truly am until I got to reading here, thank you Jesus for Jill marrying Derick or I would still be thinking I was a fundie.  Hell from what I've learned I'm not even "lite".  

That being said, I still am fascinated by the people who fall for this hook line and sinker.  I read it and instantly go "NOT FROM GOD".  I could figure this out as a small child.  I remember telling my mom "I'm not going back to that church they don't know God."  She thought I was full of it so she came the next day to VBS, I had been invited by good friends of hers, and she told me I didn't have to go back.  If I could figure it out at 8 how on God's green earth do grown people not figure it out?  There's even verses in the Bible talking about wolves in sheep's clothing.  It makes me want to beat my head against a wall.

 

I think people should use their hearts more, or their intuition if you will. These fundie guys can come with rational arguments that may sound convincing or that people are unable to counter. But if they would listen to their hearts more they would know it is BS. Kids are usually good at that...

Goodness me.   The two of you sound very smug. 

True, children have good instincts for detecting contradictions, inconsistencies and hypocrisy. I started "losing my faith" around the age of 5.  Luckily my fundie-lite  parents believed in education and did not "shelter" me from the world too much so I was able to think critically about life and religion and make up my own mind.  One of the hallmarks of cults and spiritually abusive churches (and Gothardism is a cult no doubt about it) is depriving children of education and restricting their access to other viewpoints.  A child brought up in a cult has to fight very hard against the brainwashing to get out.

When thinking about adults falling for this sort of thing,  I've always thought that authoritarian personalities and black and white thinkers are attracted to these sort of churches and beliefs.  Spiritually abusive church leaders and cults also prey on people when they are vulnerable and at times of crisis.  They pull people in with promises of eternal answers, love, safety, acceptance and true community.   It is only when people see the clay feet of the cult leader that the true nature of the organization shows itself. 

You might want to do more reading about spiritually abusive churches and cults to understand how even highly intelligent and "discerning" people are vulnerable to them.  Julie Anne at the Spiritual Sounding board has some very good articles.  I highly recommend her site. http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/